In Regards to Wild West

[Marik2]

Epyc wynn was right all along.!

We should have listened!

Reeeeee

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Epyc wynn was right all along.!

We should have listened!

Reeeeee

Who?

 

[NewClassic_v1legacy]

But there wasn't really a compromise made at all. It was just a total and complete shutdown of WW with no dialog, no change in the rules planned, or even any forewarning. Hence the "Us vs Them" mentalities that are here. There is no middle ground because the decision you guys have made has given us no middle ground. And I'm not arguing for total and utter lawlessness. That really would be awful. I'm not an anarchist. But the WW wasn't /b/. Not even close.

I think there's no middle ground because the framing prevents there from being one.

There are middle grounds for what users want, and there have been for years. Users who want moderation-light areas to discuss topics exist with usergroups. Users who want to have interpersonal interactions on more personal scales are likewise welcome to start their own Discord servers or create their own forums or start a subreddit or any number of other venues. Users who want something the Escapist isn't have grounds to which they are welcome, and it is not moderation's imperative to develop their tools for them. The Escapist has never been that, even before DEFY owned it, before Alloy Digital owned it, even before it had forums at all.

Even if you believe there is worse internet behind the horizon, nor do you believe you're arguing for anarchy, your belief that this forum works doesn't match what the moderation team has collectively decided. I recognize that the disparity between those opinions means you're put in a more unhappy position, and for that I'm sorry, but as I said in my opening post, there's no reason to stand on ceremony here. If you're not happy here, find somewhere you are. Or come here less, and use our forums more sparingly as you are able. That's fine too.

In this case, your choices define what kind of site this will be, and as administrators and moderators, that is and will be inescapable.

But this is absolutely correct. We've made the decision that this site is not the sort of site that can handle nor should have access to a Wild West-style forum.

However, that is not an "Us and Them" decision. We did not do so to be punitive or spiteful to a certain type of user. This was a decision that better enables the moderation team to do its job, and should lead to a more sociable experience for all users. Those who disagree are welcome to. Those who attack over that disagree will find that behavior to be less sociable.

That is the site this will be, this decision is made in service of that.

 

[Elvis Starburst]

And where was the problem obvious?

Where you aware of the many callout threads, many being repeated to particular users? I think that's enough on its own. Making an entire thread dedicated to rally against someone is absolutely ridiculous and unacceptable in my opinion.

How about the many comments made by some that absolutely despised certain people, and made it their mission to counter everything ever said by said user, or indeed be the ones to host the callout threads themselves? I'm not gonna name names here in the open, I refuse to do a callout like that. But believe me, it was absolutely there.

Just because you didn't see it, it doesn't mean it's not there or never happened. It's like saying you never get robbed, so why are other people complaining about being robbed? Cause clearly there's no robbery ever because you alone never saw or experienced it, right? That's fucking moon logic right there

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

Epyc wynn was right all along.!

We should have listened!

Reeeeee

Don't turn Wynn into a bona fide martyr. Please.

 

[The Lunatic]

I think there's no middle ground because the framing prevents there from being one.

You talk about there not being an "Us and Them" even though we're all aware that the staff has been trying to get rid of the Wild West for a while.
I mean, hell the last time BasementCat got shut down on that, they disappeared from posting in public entirely.
You can't say that it doesn't exist when you've all shown clearly that you do take a side and have chosen to be against certain things. You can't claim to not have bias when you're chummy with certain members who do the very things you then complain about is poisoning the forums.

Nobody expects you to be opinionless robots, but, blaming people for picking up on the obvious as "You're framing it that way" falls more than a little flat.

I mean, you talk about it like some discussion was had, some degree of back and forth, but, we can see the opinions of the moderators of The Wild west in the archive itself, and it's pretty clear basically none of you were for it.

So, if some hard-fought discussion was had, and opinions were weighed, who was representing the majority of the forum who wanted the place to stay?

 

[Trunkage]

StatusNil getting a warning for stating his opinion in a civil manner demonstrates just what is wrong with the site and it's moderation.

You know this post my be the proof that WW was bad. 1. You didn't insult anyone 2. You actual made an argument. Thanks for adding something to the conversation.
As to your argument, I honestly got through half StatusNil's post before shutting it down. I have to read more to make an appropriate comment. You though, in this post, imply that the mods should change to suit your particular needs. I'm going to have to ask for evidence for change over everyone else.

The problem some have with it though is if it were some other members saying the exact same thing there'd be no consequences for them.

I dont know what you specifically mean by 'it'. My assumption was mods or WW or StatusNil's knock. I'm going to go with mods and that they have no consequences. So on that assumption...
Mods would change things for the community. When people complain about mods, there is some commonality but there are some differences. Well, at least that's what I've noticed. There isn't a big rallying point other than they generally favour left leaning members (personally I dont believe that.) If there was more commonality, there would be more change.

A long time ago, I realised people werent going to do what I want them to do. Governments, corporations, staff memebers (and now my kids.) While I try to hard to change people, I realise that I probably won't make that change. I can change my self easier than I can change another person. That's how I see the mods. They arent going to do whatever I want. I accept that and I move on. (And I think spending your time pointing out how bad mods are will just antagonise them and make them less amenable. That defeats your own arguement.) Compare this to how people treat Trump. They lambast him and that doesnt change his behaviour. In fact, it makes him double down.

But, hey. Maybe I'm just dreaming

 

[BreakfastMan]

So that's it then, huh? One mean name and off with their heads?

Only if it's Zontar

the mods put too much work into burying his past infractions and bringing him back for people to make a callout thread against him

Racism? Fine. Sexism? Just fine. Transphobia? Of course it's fine. Homophobia? Oh you know it is already fine. Calling someone a mean name? Hey now, slow down there bud.

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

So that's it then, huh? One mean name and off with their heads?

Only if it's Zontar

the mods put too much work into burying his past infractions and bringing him back for people to make a callout thread against him

Racism? Fine. Sexism? Just fine. Transphobia? Of course it's fine. Homophobia? Oh you know it is already fine. Calling someone a mean name? Hey now, slow down there bud.

I think there should be a policy that name-calling doesn't count if the person would take it as a compliment. Like if I were to call you a "fanatical illiberal Stalinist fanboy" that shouldn't get me in trouble for the aforementioned reason.

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

So that's it then, huh? One mean name and off with their heads?

Only if it's Zontar

the mods put too much work into burying his past infractions and bringing him back for people to make a callout thread against him

Racism? Fine. Sexism? Just fine. Transphobia? Of course it's fine. Homophobia? Oh you know it is already fine. Calling someone a mean name? Hey now, slow down there bud.

Remember the bleach drinking phase WW and R&P went through?

nothing like telling people to kill themselves in meme format

Real talk: As someone who has struggled with suicide (and lost a family member to it) it saddens me that anyone would encourage another to end their life, even in jest.
The letters "KYS" should stand for "Kiss your spouse" or "knit your sweater" not something harsher.

 

[Drathnoxis]

"Just because you can doesn't mean you should" isn't a compelling argument in this case.
Defy holds the keys, they could turn this place off tomorrow, that's their choice and whether or not they should is a matter up for debate that involves details us regular users don't have access to. The mods moderate the forums, stuff like this is literally their entire bloody job, and just because the users said "We want this!" doesn't mean the moderation team has to abide by it to infinity and beyond. There are limits to things, and whether you like it or not a limit has been reached, and this limit is not and will not be dictated by the common user. This forum is not a democracy. That the moderation team allowed users to give their input months ago was a courtesy to us.

The moderators moderate the forums, according to the pre-existing rules. That job does not entail creating new rules or removing existing subforums at will. Why should the moderation team have full autonomy over the direction of the site? They have no legitimate claim to the power they currently wield. They aren't the owners of the site, nor have they been employed by the owners to act as directors. They are simply ascended users. People, like you or me, who were semi arbitrarily chosen to act as enforcers of pre-determined rules. They currently have no oversight, little transparency, and are the sole distributors of moderation power. Everybody here has been here for years, this is as much our home is it is theirs. Just because someone was handed the keys to the bus doesn't mean they get to drive it wherever they want. What gives them the right to decide the future of the site on their own?

 

[Drathnoxis]

So that's it then, huh? One mean name and off with their heads?

Only if it's Zontar

the mods put too much work into burying his past infractions and bringing him back for people to make a callout thread against him

Racism? Fine. Sexism? Just fine. Transphobia? Of course it's fine. Homophobia? Oh you know it is already fine. Calling someone a mean name? Hey now, slow down there bud.

Remember the bleach drinking phase WW and R&P went through?

nothing like telling people to kill themselves in meme format

Real talk: As someone who has struggled with suicide (and lost a family member to it) it saddens me that anyone would encourage another to end their life, even in jest.
The letters "KYS" should stand for "Kiss your spouse" or "knit your sweater" not something harsher.

Except the bleach meme was never about telling other people to kill themselves as it was used here in the WW. The true interpretation is kind of hard to say but I think it was about 80% nonsense and 20% rolling your eyes while holding your fingers up to your temples and going "pow".

As a personal aside, as the moderator who most closely monitors R&P, I've witnessed several threads that had to be locked and infractions handed out because of animosity that intensified in the WW and then spilled over to the rest of the boards. Sure, people might be passive aggressive and pissy against each other anyway, but WW took it from that to outright hostility and that hostility wasn't contained to WW alone.

Most of the hostility that was in the WW originated in R&P and spilled into the West. Politics is the root of all evil.

What do you actually think Free Speech means? I'm not just talking to you Drath. It doesn't create conversation. It doesn't cause this Utpoian feel good sanctuary people keep making it out as. As I said when we had a WW vote a while ago, none of it has changed a single person mind. In fact, it's probably calcified it. Calling out people for their bad behaviour doesn't fix the behaviour. It usually makes it worse. Also, where was this outcry when Saleune gets slammed or Zontar previously? They've been bullied for a long time, and I'd say even worse than this.

I'm usually a Free Speecher but when it just leads to insult, I find it pointless.

I didn't ever mention free speech, so I'm not sure why you are asking me this. I didn't like the callout threads against or by Saelune either. But that wasn't all the WW was, and it wasn't like that at the start. I think it was valuable to have a space where people could talk without threads being locked constantly when they reach some arbitrary limit of "gone too far." I still enjoyed having a place to talk without being constrained by interpretations of vague rules, even if a few select people abused that freedom.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

Where you aware of the many callout threads, many being repeated to particular users? I think that's enough on its own. Making an entire thread dedicated to rally against someone is absolutely ridiculous and unacceptable in my opinion.

How about the many comments made by some that absolutely despised certain people, and made it their mission to counter everything ever said by said user, or indeed be the ones to host the callout threads themselves? I'm not gonna name names here in the open, I refuse to do a callout like that. But believe me, it was absolutely there.

Just because you didn't see it, it doesn't mean it's not there or never happened. It's like saying you never get robbed, so why are other people complaining about being robbed? Cause clearly there's no robbery ever because you alone never saw or experienced it, right? That's fucking moon logic right there

I'm not saying there weren't callout threads, but I didn't think anyone, including the OP themselves really took them seriously.

 

[BreakfastMan]

So that's it then, huh? One mean name and off with their heads?

Only if it's Zontar

the mods put too much work into burying his past infractions and bringing him back for people to make a callout thread against him

Racism? Fine. Sexism? Just fine. Transphobia? Of course it's fine. Homophobia? Oh you know it is already fine. Calling someone a mean name? Hey now, slow down there bud.

Remember the bleach drinking phase WW and R&P went through?

nothing like telling people to kill themselves in meme format

Real talk: As someone who has struggled with suicide (and lost a family member to it) it saddens me that anyone would encourage another to end their life, even in jest.
The letters "KYS" should stand for "Kiss your spouse" or "knit your sweater" not something harsher.

Same boat over here, honestly. Suicide is just endlessly horrific.

 

[Dr. Thrax]

The moderators moderate the forums, according to the pre-existing rules. That job does not entail creating new rules or removing existing subforums at will.

Not the moderators themselves, but I'd say something like that falls within the boundaries of the duties of the Community Manager, using input from the moderators.

Why should the moderation team have full autonomy over the direction of the site?

Well, they don't really have "full autonomy" over the direction of the site, but at this point there is no higher power that's getting involved aside from the mods and CM.

They have no legitimate claim to the power they currently wield. They aren't the owners of the site, nor have they been employed by the owners to act as directors. They are simply ascended users. People, like you or me, who were semi arbitrarily chosen to act as enforcers of pre-determined rules.

That they were approached to be a moderator and accepted is claim enough, at the point we're at now. All these mods and even the Community Manager are volunteers trying to keep this sinking ship from sinking faster. Regardless, they've been given the authority to manage the community, which is about as easy as herding cats with this site.

They currently have no oversight, little transparency, and are the sole distributors of moderation power.

Yet that's not the fault of the moderation team. You can't blame the mods for no oversight when the overseeing authority isn't overseeing. And I don't get all this hubbub about "transparency", what forum has had anything resembling transparency behind it in regards to its moderation? Most discussions on stuff like this takes place in Modspace and the rest of the community then gets informed of their decisions. Sometimes they'll ask for community input on stuff, but other times they'll make decisions without community input.

Everybody here has been here for years, this is as much our home is it is theirs. Just because someone was handed the keys to the bus doesn't mean they get to drive it wherever they want.

Well, if you don't like where they're driving, then you're free to get off the bus at any time.

What gives them the right to decide the future of the site on their own?

The fact that there's literally nobody else running this place. Someone is still keeping the lights on, but doesn't see fit to communicate with the people tasked with keeping the forums in line. In lieu of that, it's up to people like the Community Manager to look at and make decisions on what should be done.

 

[RaikuFA]

StatusNil getting a warning for stating his opinion in a civil manner demonstrates just what is wrong with the site and it's moderation.

You know this post my be the proof that WW was bad. 1. You didn't insult anyone 2. You actual made an argument. Thanks for adding something to the conversation.
As to your argument, I honestly got through half StatusNil's post before shutting it down. I have to read more to make an appropriate comment. You though, in this post, imply that the mods should change to suit your particular needs. I'm going to have to ask for evidence for change over everyone else.

The problem some have with it though is if it were some other members saying the exact same thing there'd be no consequences for them.

I dont know what you specifically mean by 'it'. My assumption was mods or WW or StatusNil's knock. I'm going to go with mods and that they have no consequences. So on that assumption...
Mods would change things for the community. When people complain about mods, there is some commonality but there are some differences. Well, at least that's what I've noticed. There isn't a big rallying point other than they generally favour left leaning members (personally I dont believe that.) If there was more commonality, there would be more change.

A long time ago, I realised people werent going to do what I want them to do. Governments, corporations, staff memebers (and now my kids.) While I try to hard to change people, I realise that I probably won't make that change. I can change my self easier than I can change another person. That's how I see the mods. They arent going to do whatever I want. I accept that and I move on. (And I think spending your time pointing out how bad mods are will just antagonise them and make them less amenable. That defeats your own arguement.) Compare this to how people treat Trump. They lambast him and that doesnt change his behaviour. In fact, it makes him double down.

But, hey. Maybe I'm just dreaming

I was talking about how certain members can skirt the rules while others can't. It's been a problem for years on this site. We have certain members being passive aggressive and getting away with it. Just a few weeks ago someone was trying to bait me into insulting them over the fact that I had a learning disability. They were trying to antagonize me and I wasn't biting. I think people who try and pull shit like that should get some form of punishment but they don't.

 

[Marik2]

Drathnoxis, you're starting to sound like Epyc Wynn.

 

[Drathnoxis]

Not the moderators themselves, but I'd say something like that falls within the boundaries of the duties of the Community Manager, using input from the moderators.

There is no CM. The CM is just a mod with a different color name.

That they were approached to be a moderator and accepted is claim enough, at the point we're at now. All these mods and even the Community Manager are volunteers trying to keep this sinking ship from sinking faster. Regardless, they've been given the authority to manage the community, which is about as easy as herding cats with this site.

So those in power should be in power for the reason that they are in power, and because they are in power they automatically make the right decisions. Yeah, sure.

Yet that's not the fault of the moderation team. You can't blame the mods for no oversight when the overseeing authority isn't overseeing. And I don't get all this hubbub about "transparency", what forum has had anything resembling transparency behind it in regards to its moderation? Most discussions on stuff like this takes place in Modspace and the rest of the community then gets informed of their decisions. Sometimes they'll ask for community input on stuff, but other times they'll make decisions without community input.

Since there is no oversight, and they also chose who becomes part of their ranks, then they need to be transparent with the community when making big decisions and respect the wishes of the community. Evidently though, they are far too concerned with showing solidarity and demonstrating that the mods decisions are final, whatever they may be, for that.

Well, if you don't like where they're driving, then you're free to get off the bus at any time.

Many of us were on this bus before they were in the driver's seat, heck we were sitting here before they even got on. Now suddenly they get to decide where we go even though I still have tickets from the bus company? That's just not right.

 

[Dr. Thrax]

-Snorp-
Many of us were on this bus before they were in the driver's seat, heck we were sitting here before they even got on. Now suddenly they get to decide where we go even though I still have tickets from the bus company? That's just not right.

God you really are starting to sound like Wynn.
If you don't like it, then you know where the door is.

Unless you can start getting Defy to actually manage this damn site again, this is all we've got.