Incest

[The Towel Boy]

One of those fun little quirks of human psychology. No one wants to sleep with their own sibling, but just about everyone likes the idea of a threeway with twins.

I say as long as no children are possible, do what you like.

Ohhhh yeah tell me about it, but in all seriousness I think its okay as long as I don't see it and no offspring come from them, that'd be one seriously disabled/screwed-up child.

 

[Joos]

After you looked up incest, you should probably look up inbred and genetic deficiency as well.

Is incest immoral? Considering that your offspring is going to be weaker due to inbreeding, it is not just morally wrong, but also evolutionary wrong.

Going to be is uncertain. I believe it's a 2% increase chance. I'm pretty sure there is a greater chance in other situations.
And no act is 'evolutionary wrong'. There's really no excuse to be so uninformed about what evolution is if you're going to bring it up. Attributing some sort of morality or goal to it is absolutely incorrect.

No, it is not uncertain. It is a scientific fact proven through generations of research. Historically they knew this ages ago, and why you want to try and bend the truth in this way only leads me to believe that you are trying to make yourself feel better about your own incest. You even admit to 2% increase in the first generation, which will only increase as the inbreeding goes on. Imagine what the figure will look like in three generations. The Spanish Habsburgh dynasty liked to keep it in the family too, read up on how it went for them.

Moreover, by not calling it out as immoral, you set a cultural precedent that it is ok to inbreed, which will be evolutionary devastating for a society in the long run. Why do you think incest is looked down upon in pretty much _all_ cultures currently? Because cultures that allowed incest became weak over time and were replaced by stronger stock which saw the fallacy of "but hey, I really like my sister, ehuh..."

So please, take your deficient arguments/opinion and keep it to yourself, lest you embarrass yourself some more.

 

[General Vagueness]

For a starting definition so there's no confusion

Definition of incest
noun
sexual relations between people classed as being too closely related to marry each other.
Origin:
Middle English: from Latin incestus, incestum 'unchastity, incest', from in- 'not' + castus 'chaste'

It's from the Oxford Dictionary.

For discussion:

-Is incest morally wrong?
-In the case of no possible offspring?

pretty much

-With offspring?

absolutely

-Should incest be legally banned?

Here's where we get into an issue of degrees. Namely, the closer the relation, the more likely it is their marriage won't be legal, the more likely it is there's some kind of coercion (however subtle or long-term or deep-seated or possibly even unintentional), the more likely genetic disorders (including birth defects) are, and the less likely it is their relationship will be accepted (from what I've read, some societies are OK with close relations doing this, but most aren't).

-Does the act of incest disgust you?

In fiction, I find it... hot, as long as it's consensual, the participants are old enough, and there's no pregnancy from it (it never ceases to amaze me how many stories about this stuff involve a pregnancy if not several). In real life, it disgusts me regardless. I wish I could explain it.
Also, it can be funny, or at least those feelings can lead to or be tied to something funny.

Spoiler

adapted slightly by me
Before you read this: Please don't judge me... I'm just sharing my story because people asked....
Wow... okay, I wasn't sure if I was ever going to tell anyone about this, but it's late and I'm sleep deprived so i guess I'll just write it now and regret it in the morning. :/
First of all, just for some background: My mom died right when I was born (she was actually really, really hot-- but this isn't about her. I guess that's fucked up to say, but whatever). I actually grew up with my dad's family, because my dad has all sorts of emotional issues and he bailed before I was born. So you can see, my childhood was really kind of messed up.
Anyways, growing up I feel like there was always a lot of distance between me and my sister. When I was about 17 or 18 I first noticed that my sister was a hottie.
I don't want to go into too many details about it, but basically what happened is that I accidentally found a video that she made of herself. I knew she didn't make it for me-- but I thought she was so fucking beautiful that I watched it twice. I probably would have watched it a hell of a lot more, except that like right around the time I found the video, all this crazy shit went down and I had to leave home. (My dad's family who I was staying with got in bad trouble with the law. I never talk about it).
Sooo... I was totally lusting after my sister at that point. She was also having bad trouble with the law. She was actually in custody when I left home.
My friend and I went to go pick her up. When I saw her that day, after seeing the video, I have to be honest, I just wanted to fuck her brains out. Looking back on it now, it's pretty messed up-- but I think she had feelings for me too. She actually kissed me right after we came to get her... and it wasn't a sisterly kiss, you know? I mean, it wasn't like ridiculously sexual or anything, but it definitely wasn't sisterly.
After we left, we all went to crash with my sister's friends. On the trip there, my friend sort of implied that he wanted to get with my sister, and I got a little jealous. He's a good looking guy, and even though she was my sister, I just felt like he was competition. Not much else happened between us for a while except some maybe-sexy hugging.
Pretty much everyone in my life at that point was wanted by the government, so we all moved around a lot. I'm not saying that I'm proud of it or anything, but it was kind of an awesome time.
My friend and my sister never hooked up I don't think-- but I thought there was some serious sexual tension going on between them. It was around that time that I got really badly hurt in an accident. It was fucked up. I almost died. But when I was in recovery my sister came to see me, and out of the clear blue sky she started gives me this awesome, slow, passionate kiss on the lips.
Sadly (although, I guess for the best) nothing ever came of it. We spent some time apart... and I started to get really religious, so I tried not to think of her that way. It was actually going well for a long time-- like I was totally over her. But I have to say, like a year or so after all that stuff went down, we were out sailing (not like a date or anything romantic like that), and she was wearing like the hottest bikini I've ever fucking seen and it brought back all the old feelings. Sigh.
A little while later she actually wound up with my friend from before (the sexual tension guy). I can't say I was surprised.
But even after she was shacking up with my friend, there was one time we were at a party... my friend was inside, and my sister and I were outside alone. It was a really intimate moment. I think something might have happened, except that I killed the mood when I told her that I had to go face our father, who it turned out was this guy in the government who had been trying to kill me and was calling himself Darth Vader.

 

[shintakie10]

Im confused why people keep bringin up coercion and whatnot in regards as to why incest should be illegal. If incest was not illegal, that kind of thing would still be illegal anyway. Statutory rape still exists, regular old rape laws exist which cover these kinds of issues. You dont need another law to drive the point home further that also targets groups completely unrelated to that issue.

On topic!

I have no problem with it, it shouldn't be illegal, a single generation of incest is genetically speakin not a major problem and you can't ban somethin on the off chance that somethin bad MIGHT happen down the road.

Love is love, whether its 2 men, 2 women, a man and a woman, a brother and a sister, a nonidentified and a whatever.

Laws shouldn't be made because of the ick factor. That's stupid. Things should be banned because its actually a detriment to society.

 

[Nowhere Man]

Yeah I knew this thread was going to end up getting nuts. This is why I ran off the first time.

 

[nin_ninja]

I remember doing this exact same thread a year or two ago. I'll just say here what I said there. I don't have any objection to what two people do as long as its consensual, and they're both of age.

 

[lunavixen]

1) Is incest morally wrong?
2) In the case of no possible offspring?
2b) With offspring?

3) Should incest be legally banned?
4) Does the act of incest disgust you?

I've numbered the discussion points to make it easier

1) Personally, i think it depends on the nature of the relationship, i'm most against parent/child incestual relationships

2 & 2b) The chances of offspring coming from the relationship has no regard to how i see it, though I do hold the belief that adoption is a better course of action than a child of their own making, as incest can lead to genetic deformities becoming more likely, and if i remember right, i think there is also a higher chance of stillbirth and miscarriage among incestuous couples.

3) Incest is actually partially banned under Australian law, it's a very complicated issue (though the courts cannot criminalize adult incest, they can't marry). While incest is a crime in all of the Australia states and territories, this is only at state level, and the state laws that criminalize adult incest are invalid because federal laws have primacy over them and consensual adult incest is legal under federal law. (See, complicated, and there is a lot i haven't said)

4) It does wierd me out, while it's not something i could do myself, it's a persons prerogative and therefore has no direct bearing on me (So, not my problem)

 

[jamail77]

to all the people that are like "uhhh but the chances of complications are slim, it would only be a problem after several generations."

no.

true, the chance for severe problems right of the bat are slim. but if a person born of incest finds a parter one day that is also the product of incest, even if the two aren't related, we are already in trouble.

genetics are complex, and there is a VERY GOOD reason why there are inhibitions and mechanisms and the westermarck effect in place precisely to prevent a healthy human being from boning his close relatives. ever thought of that?

This is a very good point actually. I hadn't thought of that. To be fair though in a population of over 7 billion where roughly 5 to 6 billion are available at the current moment (not under circumstances preventing meeting and engaging in a relationship of someone who is well off because they are in a corrupt or impoverished place or other things or in a culture that is too different from theirs) the chances of people born of recent and direct incest are very unlikely.

Were it to happen it would only affect their lineage. I'm not saying that their lineage doesn't matter but it won't go worldwide or anything as you were implying. The worse it gets each generation (assuming they live long enough for it to continue and continue the pattern on purpose or by accident) the less likely they will be in a relationship due to ongoing health problems, epiphanies of the family, etc.

Genetics are complex as you say though and a person born of incest finding someone with certain genetic problems even those not from incest could prove very dangerous so there is that.

 

[Prosis]

There seems to be a great deal of confusion over exactly what inbreeding does as far as human genes go (keeping it very simple of course. The real deal is much more complex).I'll break it down for you all.

Every person has two strands of DNA; one a product of dad's two strands, and the other a product of mom's two strands. Being from different sources, these "copies" are not identical. Each of your two strands are complete- that is, they have all the information to code for a functioning human. However, neither of them are "perfect." If a segment of one strand is screwed up, the cell just uses the other strand. In this way, a number of people are carriers of severe genetic diseases, but they do not suffer from the disease. Although they have some segment of their DNA screwed up, the other strand covers it. DNA strands A and B can be absolutely riddled with errors and mutations, but as long as the screwed up sections don't overlap, you're just fine and dandy. (This isn't always the case, but for our purposes, its good enough).
When a person makes a baby with another person, generally its not an issue. While both Mom and Dad contribute DNA with flawed segments, generally, these flawed segments will not overlap, or at least there is a smaller probability that they will. In the case of incest, however, both Mom and Dad are from the same gene pool. There is a much greater chance of both having a flawed region that overlaps.

For example, let's say we have Genetic Disease BAD, which makes person sick for their entire life. BAD is caused by a flaw in DNA region M (region M must be flawed on both strands of DNA in order to make the person sick). Flawed M is found in 1 out of 100 people. Since Joe Schmuck must give either his healthy M or his flawed M to his child, the probability of his child being a carrier of flawed region M is 50%. However, the probability of Joe Schmuck marrying somebody else who also carries flawed M is 1/100. This means that, assuming Joe Schmuck picks his wife at random, the probability of his child having BAD is very slim (1/400 to be exact).
But in the case of incest, the chance is much higher. While the probability of having flawed M is 1/100 for the general populace, it is much higher in his family. Since the chance of flawed M being passed on from parent to child is 50%, a good number of the Schmuck family carries it (not 50%, due to some probability shenanigans, but certainly much higher than 1/100).
Let's say Joe Schmuck carries flawed M, and he marries his sister Mary Schmuck. Since Joe carries flawed M, at least one of his parents has flawed M, meaning that the chance that Mary carries it as well is 1/2. This means that the probability of their child having at least one flawed region R is 3/4, and the chance of the child having BAD is 1/8, a value which is much larger than the 1/400 for a random mating.

Short term, the chance of a bad disease being passed on increases dramatically. Long term, the probability of a Schmuck having flawed M will increase, meaning that the probability of a Schmuck having BAD will increase.

Will this destroy/weaken humanity with bad genes? No. Survival of the fittest. Healthy people produce more children than people with BAD. Will this impact and increase the chance of Schmuck children living miserable, sick lives? Yes. This was commonly found in royalty/nobility in the middle ages, where generations of inbreeding lead to a number of genetic diseases within the royalty. This also meant that extremely rare diseases (1/800 or 1/1,000) concentrated into these family lines, becoming much more likely to be expressed in the children.

If incest became legal, I'm of the opinion that children should not be allowed except through artificial insemination or adoption in order to reduce the chance of the child suffering from a genetic disease.