Irish SOPA law has passed today

[370999]

The Irish version of SOPA has just passed today and will be in effect soon ignoring a signed petition of 80,000 voters which is quite a big number of people over here.

So perhaps the Irish need to use the IRA again.

Why do people keep saying this, even in jest? I don't think people realize what the IRA actually is today...

I realize that they are a former shell of what they once were, but they made a difference in the last century, wouldn't you agree?

If by "made a difference" you mean 'devalued the injustice imposed on the people they claimed to represent by bringing nothing but misery and destruction to innocents though their own misguided aggression and bigotry', then yes.

Edit: OT: and we call ourselves the free world. SOPA and its ilk have just made it clear to me that democracy is just another form of dictatorship in its own way, except rather than governments oppressing the people, it's governments allowing greedy, self-interested individuals to oppress the people. Remember, in politics, principles can always be ignored when they become inconvenient.

I'm going to go cry in the corner now.

I'm sorry what? This is like saying that the French Resistance in the Second World War was wrong Look sometimes you have to use armed resistance. Yes I do think in the long term that Ireland being independent was inevitable however armed struggle speed that up much quicker.

Look the IRA actions in the north after it became clear that it wasn't going to be part of the Republic were different, but in the South the struggle for Independence was IMHO a good and right thing and the IRA was the instrument through which it was carried out.

Let me start off by saying that, while I'm fully aware that the British occupation of Eire was morally suspect at best, we were not the Nazi's.

Second. Yes, the IRA's liberation of the South was justified. However, I am of the opinion that what they went on to become and the acts of terror they committed then undermined the credibility they had before. The moment you resort to terrorism to achieve your aims, you make a mockery of everything you stand for, in my opinion.

You might not have been Nazi's, but the same can't be said for the people who took part in Bloody Sunday(the 1920 and the 1972 one). Also the black and tans are far from innocent people

Stop it. I was wrong to bring up that allusion, I was more trying to point out pushing out an imperialist then someone similar to the Nazi's. The Black and tans were poor guys, who were desperate for a job int eh economic climate they were in, were sent to somewhere which was a bit of a shithole and were the population hated them and were not properly disciplined or controlled.

Yes they fucked up and did evil things but they aren't evil soulless monsters.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

The Irish version of SOPA has just passed today and will be in effect soon ignoring a signed petition of 80,000 voters which is quite a big number of people over here.

So perhaps the Irish need to use the IRA again.

Why do people keep saying this, even in jest? I don't think people realize what the IRA actually is today...

I realize that they are a former shell of what they once were, but they made a difference in the last century, wouldn't you agree?

If by "made a difference" you mean 'devalued the injustice imposed on the people they claimed to represent by bringing nothing but misery and destruction to innocents though their own misguided aggression and bigotry', then yes.

Edit: OT: and we call ourselves the free world. SOPA and its ilk have just made it clear to me that democracy is just another form of dictatorship in its own way, except rather than governments oppressing the people, it's governments allowing greedy, self-interested individuals to oppress the people. Remember, in politics, principles can always be ignored when they become inconvenient.

I'm going to go cry in the corner now.

I'm sorry what? This is like saying that the French Resistance in the Second World War was wrong Look sometimes you have to use armed resistance. Yes I do think in the long term that Ireland being independent was inevitable however armed struggle speed that up much quicker.

Look the IRA actions in the north after it became clear that it wasn't going to be part of the Republic were different, but in the South the struggle for Independence was IMHO a good and right thing and the IRA was the instrument through which it was carried out.

Let me start off by saying that, while I'm fully aware that the British occupation of Eire was morally suspect at best, we were not the Nazi's.

Second. Yes, the IRA's liberation of the South was justified. However, I am of the opinion that what they went on to become and the acts of terror they committed then undermined the credibility they had before. The moment you resort to terrorism to achieve your aims, you make a mockery of everything you stand for, in my opinion.

No you weren't that's true. However you still were an occupying force. It's not suspect but wrong. I'm not going to rant about you about English sins as honestly if the boot was on the other foot I'm pretty sure we would of done the same but still...

What time period of IRA action are we talking about may I ask? As the part I'm interested in defending is the from the Easter Rising (1916) to the end of the War of Independence (1919-1921) as I am not confident in my knowledge of the actions that took place in the North.

The Irish war of Independence was fought primarily through the sue of guerrilla warfare. No guerrilla warfare is even more ugly then regular wars but if you are fighting against a power which is so much stronger it's pretty much the only thing states can do.

There was indeed the use of terror tactics in the war, Michael's Collin's squad engaged in day light assassination of individuals who were working with the Crown force and there was some acts of arson but Irish men in farms in England, however the military component of the IRA campaign was heavily based on the use of Flying columns throughout campaign, though the action was mostly restricted to the Munster, though my home county of Longford has a lot of action take place (the house where my great grandparents lived was actually used as a safe-house during the war)

While there was ongoing discussion within the Dail as to what form the fighting should take, de Valera wanted it to be more conventional as he though that would be better, the reality was the to win the war, and if Ireland was fighting she should be trying to win,. was that she had to get her hands dirty.

Your terrorism concept is one that is often said but I disagree. I think it is a horrid thing for innocent's to die but the neccesity of Ireland lacking her independence meant she was justified in targeting members of the RIC.

I can see where you're coming from, but I think we may have to agree to disagree. I believe that if a fight is just then it should be about more than just winning it. It should be about winning it while still retaining the moral high ground. Now that doesn't necessarily have to mean going head to head against impossible odds on an open field of battle, but there is a line between guerrilla tactics, and terrorism; a line I don't think should ever be crossed. Or at least, if you're going to cross it, I don't think you can then make yourselves out to be any better than the people you're fighting.

Case in point, no matter what the Nazi's did to the Jews, and Gypsies, and Homosexuals, and Blacks, and pretty much anyone who disagreed with them, it still doesn't excuse what the RAF did to Dresden.

Sneak attacks on military targets, or targets of military importance, can be justified. Mindless slaughter of civilians for no other reason than to make a point cannot.

To answer what time period I'm talking about... I'm talking about the whole thing, from start to the present day. That's my whole point. That however admirable the aims of the original IRA were, everything that has happened since needs to be taken into account in order to make an objective judgement on the whole thing; and in my view what the IRA did in Ulster and the mainland in the latter part of the 20th Century rather spoils the ideals of their predecessors. That's why I said that, all things considered, the IRA ultimately hurt the cause they were fighting for.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

The Irish version of SOPA has just passed today and will be in effect soon ignoring a signed petition of 80,000 voters which is quite a big number of people over here.

So perhaps the Irish need to use the IRA again.

Why do people keep saying this, even in jest? I don't think people realize what the IRA actually is today...

I realize that they are a former shell of what they once were, but they made a difference in the last century, wouldn't you agree?

If by "made a difference" you mean 'devalued the injustice imposed on the people they claimed to represent by bringing nothing but misery and destruction to innocents though their own misguided aggression and bigotry', then yes.

Edit: OT: and we call ourselves the free world. SOPA and its ilk have just made it clear to me that democracy is just another form of dictatorship in its own way, except rather than governments oppressing the people, it's governments allowing greedy, self-interested individuals to oppress the people. Remember, in politics, principles can always be ignored when they become inconvenient.

I'm going to go cry in the corner now.

I'm sorry what? This is like saying that the French Resistance in the Second World War was wrong Look sometimes you have to use armed resistance. Yes I do think in the long term that Ireland being independent was inevitable however armed struggle speed that up much quicker.

Look the IRA actions in the north after it became clear that it wasn't going to be part of the Republic were different, but in the South the struggle for Independence was IMHO a good and right thing and the IRA was the instrument through which it was carried out.

Let me start off by saying that, while I'm fully aware that the British occupation of Eire was morally suspect at best, we were not the Nazi's.

Second. Yes, the IRA's liberation of the South was justified. However, I am of the opinion that what they went on to become and the acts of terror they committed then undermined the credibility they had before. The moment you resort to terrorism to achieve your aims, you make a mockery of everything you stand for, in my opinion.

You might not have been Nazi's, but the same can't be said for the people who took part in Bloody Sunday(the 1920 and the 1972 one). Also the black and tans are far from innocent people

Did I ever say they were? I know we oppressed Ireland, and I consider our actions there to be one of the biggest black marks in our history (and coming from us that's saying something). All I'm saying is that I don't think oppression excuses terrorism.

I was responding to your comment about how your not Nazi's. As for the terrorist comment, obviously I don't support killing innocent people

 

[370999]

I can see where you're coming from, but I think we may have to agree to disagree. I believe that if a fight is just then it should be about more than just winning it. It should be about winning it while still retaining the moral high ground. Now that doesn't necessarily have to mean going head to head against impossible odds on an open field of battle, but there is a line between guerrilla tactics, and terrorism; a line I don't think should ever be crossed. Or at least, if you're going to cross it, I don't think you can then make yourselves out to be any better than the people you're fighting

Aye I think we will. for what's it's worth I do enormously respect your principled take on the matter I just believe in the nature of necessity empowering the use of acts that otherwise would be vile.

Sneak attacks on military targets, or targets of military importance, can be justified. Mindless slaughter of civilians for no other reason than to make a point cannot.

I would like to know when you believe there was a deliberate policy by the IRA of killing civilians during the Irish war for Independence.

To answer what time period I'm talking about... I'm talking about the whole thing, from start to the present day. That's my whole point. That however admirable the aims of the original IRA were, everything that has happened since needs to be taken into account in order to make an objective judgement on the whole thing; and in my view what the IRA did in Ulster and the mainland in the latter part of the 20th Century rather spoils the ideals of their predecessors. That's why I said that, all things considered, the IRA ultimately hurt the cause they were fighting for.

Well you see my opinion of the IRA changes over the time period. Being nominally more Fine Gael, and certainly in favour of the treaty, I think after the war of Independence I very much take the government's side and see the IRA as being wrong. There job was done at that stage, we had (a limited) separate government and could then move to Independence peacefully.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Stop it. I was wrong to bring up that allusion, I was more trying to point out pushing out an imperialist then someone similar to the Nazi's. The Black and tans were poor guys, who were desperate for a job int eh economic climate they were in,

Being poor and out of a job doesn't justify murder or rape.

were sent to somewhere which was a bit of a shithole and were the population hated them

The Irish population had good reason to feel that way.

and were not properly disciplined or controlled.

That is the fault of the government, not the Irish people.

Yes they fucked up and did evil things but they aren't evil soulless monsters.

I didn't say they didn't have souls, just that they were monsters for what they did.

 

[Andaxay]

I'm actually daring to feel slightly positive. David Cameron being the staunch supported of the Union that he is, I reckon he'll be determined to do the exact opposite of everything the Irish government says is a good idea.

Haha, good point. Pretty sure he'd get a decent, positive response from the general public if he went against SOPA, too. Surely that's got to be appealing.

Or he could be like most politicians and completely disregard the thousands and thousands of people against this. Time will tell!

 

[370999]

Right, I believe you first alluded to them being Nazi like. I wish to see you actually do this.

Being poor and out of a job doesn't justify murder or rape.

I know. Can you prove however that there was ever a deliberate policy of rape and murder? Like anything that happened in the Nazi occupation of say, the Soviet Union were they did engage in ethnic cleansing.

The Black and tans did carry out brutal reprisals and did do stupid things like taking pot shots at people on the road. But again this doesn't make them into Nazis.

The Irish population had good reason to feel that way.

No disagreement

I didn't say they didn't have souls, just that they were monsters for what they did.

We have different scales for evil behavior them. I would call what they did ineffective and morally abhorrent but i don't think those men were evil. I see it a lot of just overreactions that they engaged in. Stupid and wrong but understandable.

 

[Boba Frag]

The Irish version of SOPA has just passed today and will be in effect soon ignoring a signed petition of 80,000 voters which is quite a big number of people over here.

So perhaps the Irish need to use the IRA again.

Why do people keep saying this, even in jest? I don't think people realize what the IRA actually is today...

I realize that they are a former shell of what they once were, but they made a difference in the last century, wouldn't you agree?

If by "made a difference" you mean 'devalued the injustice imposed on the people they claimed to represent by bringing nothing but misery and destruction to innocents though their own misguided aggression and bigotry', then yes.

Your profile says your from the UK, so it seems like you might have a bias.

As I said, I'm not referring to the current IRA, but the "original" IRA

The 'original' IRA weren't exactly saints either- there are still a lot of questions over the people shot as accused spies and that, while I do admire the achievement of the whole Irish Nationalist independence movement, what the IRA turned into is far less heroic.

You keep referring to the original IRA in your arguments as if they were some form of gold standard, and I have to wonder just how much Irish history you actually know.
If you mean to use them as an example of taking arms against oppression, then that's just romanticism, not factual.
Another thing- the memory and perception of most Irish people of the 'IRA' in any form is that of a bunch of violent, hardline, hate fuelled bigots who were the happy butchers of both Catholic and Protestant, Irish or English, Unionist or Nationalist.

They became so enamoured with their status as supposed 'patriots' that anyone that got in the way of their violent crusade against any trace of British culture or influence on the island that they even viewed the democratically elected government of the Republic as West Brit institution for years. The Republic they wanted/want to achieve is nothing short of a horrible, backward nightmare land that cuts itself from the world and engages in tribal, tit for tat killings in order to maintain their warlord fetishism.

Anyone seriously proposing that the Irish people, of which I am proudly one, should ever support the thuggish violence perpetrated by these homicidal brutish cowards might as well encourage the United States to permit the Ku Klux Klan to take a leading role in American society.

If we can please move on from the obvious, insensitive and sadly misinformed 'bring back the IRA' jokes and get to dealing with this travesty of a law that a young, arrogant politician eager to make his name has made Law in my country, that would be infinite more help.

 

[Boba Frag]

The Irish version of SOPA has just passed today and will be in effect soon ignoring a signed petition of 80,000 voters which is quite a big number of people over here.

So perhaps the Irish need to use the IRA again.

Why do people keep saying this, even in jest? I don't think people realize what the IRA actually is today...

I realize that they are a former shell of what they once were, but they made a difference in the last century, wouldn't you agree?

If by "made a difference" you mean 'devalued the injustice imposed on the people they claimed to represent by bringing nothing but misery and destruction to innocents though their own misguided aggression and bigotry', then yes.

Edit: OT: and we call ourselves the free world. SOPA and its ilk have just made it clear to me that democracy is just another form of dictatorship in its own way, except rather than governments oppressing the people, it's governments allowing greedy, self-interested individuals to oppress the people. Remember, in politics, principles can always be ignored when they become inconvenient.

I'm going to go cry in the corner now.

I'm sorry what? This is like saying that the French Resistance in the Second World War was wrong Look sometimes you have to use armed resistance. Yes I do think in the long term that Ireland being independent was inevitable however armed struggle speed that up much quicker.

Look the IRA actions in the north after it became clear that it wasn't going to be part of the Republic were different, but in the South the struggle for Independence was IMHO a good and right thing and the IRA was the instrument through which it was carried out.

Let me start off by saying that, while I'm fully aware that the British occupation of Eire was morally suspect at best, we were not the Nazi's.

Second. Yes, the IRA's liberation of the South was justified. However, I am of the opinion that what they went on to become and the acts of terror they committed then undermined the credibility they had before. The moment you resort to terrorism to achieve your aims, you make a mockery of everything you stand for, in my opinion.

No you weren't that's true. However you still were an occupying force. It's not suspect but wrong. I'm not going to rant about you about English sins as honestly if the boot was on the other foot I'm pretty sure we would of done the same but still...

What time period of IRA action are we talking about may I ask? As the part I'm interested in defending is the from the Easter Rising (1916) to the end of the War of Independence (1919-1921) as I am not confident in my knowledge of the actions that took place in the North.

The Irish war of Independence was fought primarily through the sue of guerrilla warfare. No guerrilla warfare is even more ugly then regular wars but if you are fighting against a power which is so much stronger it's pretty much the only thing states can do.

There was indeed the use of terror tactics in the war, Michael's Collin's squad engaged in day light assassination of individuals who were working with the Crown force and there was some acts of arson but Irish men in farms in England, however the military component of the IRA campaign was heavily based on the use of Flying columns throughout campaign, though the action was mostly restricted to the Munster, though my home county of Longford has a lot of action take place (the house where my great grandparents lived was actually used as a safe-house during the war)

While there was ongoing discussion within the Dail as to what form the fighting should take, de Valera wanted it to be more conventional as he though that would be better, the reality was the to win the war, and if Ireland was fighting she should be trying to win,. was that she had to get her hands dirty.

Your terrorism concept is one that is often said but I disagree. I think it is a horrid thing for innocent's to die but the neccesity of Ireland lacking her independence meant she was justified in targeting members of the RIC.

I can see where you're coming from, but I think we may have to agree to disagree. I believe that if a fight is just then it should be about more than just winning it. It should be about winning it while still retaining the moral high ground. Now that doesn't necessarily have to mean going head to head against impossible odds on an open field of battle, but there is a line between guerrilla tactics, and terrorism; a line I don't think should ever be crossed. Or at least, if you're going to cross it, I don't think you can then make yourselves out to be any better than the people you're fighting.

Case in point, no matter what the Nazi's did to the Jews, and Gypsies, and Homosexuals, and Blacks, and pretty much anyone who disagreed with them, it still doesn't excuse what the RAF did to Dresden.

Sneak attacks on military targets, or targets of military importance, can be justified. Mindless slaughter of civilians for no other reason than to make a point cannot.

To answer what time period I'm talking about... I'm talking about the whole thing, from start to the present day. That's my whole point. That however admirable the aims of the original IRA were, everything that has happened since needs to be taken into account in order to make an objective judgement on the whole thing; and in my view what the IRA did in Ulster and the mainland in the latter part of the 20th Century rather spoils the ideals of their predecessors. That's why I said that, all things considered, the IRA ultimately hurt the cause they were fighting for.

I just wanted to say that I agree with everything you've said.
Nice to see someone else using their head before posting on this thread.

Violence is sadly cyclical- an eye for an eye for an eye... All it does is leave everyone blind.

 

[mik1]

This is something we should really expect.

On the escapist, people may be a bunch reasonably educated people.
But in the real world, in the countries that practice democracy.
There's ignorant baboons. Everyone knows someone that they are ashamed to call their countrymen because they are just so damn ignorant.

For me, being a U.S. citizen, that's about 75% of the population that I have to shamefully bare a title with.
This 75% of my country, that makes me want to lie down on a highway, believes whatever certain polictal parties tell them.
Usually they tell them to hold allegance to their party because they have good christian values. not based on anything they actually plan to do.

That's right, if you want to be president of the U.S. be born with a catchy name and be willing to lie about anything.
Just say you have good christian values, you disagree or agree what the majority of the masses of cattle are arguing about that week, and you have it.


Usually however there's a lot of people willing to do that. It comes down to who can shine their name in the grotesque faces of the population the most and throw more mud at all the others.
Of course this shining of names and mud throwing costs money. Corporations are willing to give you money, to convince the idiots to write down your name, if you agree to be their puppet.

In an ideal world the people would see that the politicians they are voting for are not representing the people's best interests rather the interests of corporations. The piles of garbage running around, calling themselves people, refuse to see that.

This is why the idea of democracy has fallen flat on its ass.

The ignorant people, willing to be so easily swayed, far out weigh the non-ignorant.
and they hold equal political power.

In this case however it seems that Irelands population was willing to not be so ignorant in such blatant example of a politician holding a corporations interest over that of the peoples. I hope that whoever is responsible for this is not re-elected and that other politicians see this and know there is a line that can be crossed. If you willing to do something that is filled with enough bullshit the idiotic masses will see through it.

 

[The Bum]

The Irish version of SOPA has just passed today and will be in effect soon ignoring a signed petition of 80,000 voters which is quite a big number of people over here.

So perhaps the Irish need to use the IRA again.

Why do people keep saying this, even in jest? I don't think people realize what the IRA actually is today...

I don't think they realize what it ever was.

 

[Evil Smurf]

I have a feeling I'll be flamed for this, but I feel like the only person on this island to support the law

yea bro. you are

 

[SenseOfTumour]

My first thought was that I thought we in the UK would get rolled over on this way before Ireland, so I've got even less hope that someone like Cameron will put up any defense against big business's interests against those of the people, after all, look what's going on in the NHS, the sheer gall of ignoring the actual doctors and nurses who do the job in favour of 'business experts' with a cheque for party funds.

While of course SOPA etc is important, I imagine if you asked the average man in the street in the UK what the most important thing is right now, they'd say the NHS, and so if the Tories are willing to screw with that, then a free internet is a mere dream the moment the suitcases of cash start moving around to buy new laws.

All that would happen, if by some miracle new laws were brought in, and they were actually effective and blocked everything, is we'd go back to the 90s and start swapping discs by mail. Now I'm not saying piracy is good, but I am saying its huge, and it was huge before the internet was big. It'll still be huge in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, whatever 'they' do.

And you know what? Those self same 'pirates' will also be buying stuff.

That's IF anyone believes for a moment that a group of rich old men who don't know what the internet is, can put together a plan to control it.

 

[anthony87]

Check it out:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/3/call-for-resignation-of-irish-minister-sean-sherlock/

God it'd just be amazing if it worked and he resigned....

 

[MetalDooley]

Check it out:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/3/call-for-resignation-of-irish-minister-sean-sherlock/

God it'd just be amazing if it worked and he resigned....

Well he's already ignored one petition so I doubt he'll take any notice of this one either

 

[Freechoice]

I feel for the Irish. This bill seems to have...
*sunglasses*
roused their ire.

Spoiler

Also, I expect the holmes of the officials responsible for this to be either TP'd or hit with cannonballs in retaliation by pirates. Sherlock, especially.

On the escapist, people may be a bunch of opinionated people.

Fix'd that for ya. And in retards to Americans, we actually bitched loud enough to get the bill down for the moment.

 

[miketehmage]

Well shit on a shingle, does this effect both the North and South of Ireland?

Doubt it would affect the north. That's part of the UK.

When people say Ireland I generally tend to think of the republic unless they specifically say "northern"

 

[Rastien]

Well tell your friend that peerblocking software wouldnt go amiss, however if the government asked whatever the isp is for an entire history of internet activity then not much could be done about that.

Just a heads up i work for a large ISP in the UK i cannot really say which one but if you look up outside you would be looking at the...

We have no way to monitor what individual users do as it stands and currently have no insentive to do such... So i wouldn't worry to much it costs a metric fuck ton to activley monitor what people are doing and finding out on specific dates what was accessed etc and by whom as the IP's are assigned from a DHCP pool.

Blocking sites on the other hand? thats possible

 

[direkiller]

This is a sad day, but isn't there a chance that people will be able to eventually come up with workarounds for these blocks?

its rather easy
you just need to know the IP of the address your looking for and type that in instead of the domain name.