Is it time for feminists to step off our hobby?

[giles]

YES it is.
I want a more inclusive and diverse landscape in pop culture media (movies AND games, starting with movies because they need to get their shit together being the older medium and all) and I will keep critizing the fact that women are underrepresented in the industry and well written female characters are basically unicorns at this point. HOWEVER. I'm so fucking tired of having to associate myself with these "misogyny" whiners, "rape" criers and "patriarchy" conspiracy theorists. Go away! Nobody asked for you to show up and talk about how this and that relates to rape, what's your obsession with it anyway you weirdos? Go back to your "gender studies" university courses and make sculptures of vulvae or whatever.
I frequently have gaming nights with my little sister and that's all the motivation I need to argue for a better depiction of women in games, I don't need all this talk about raping people, boy's club, sex objects you name it.

 

[Supdupadog]

This reminds me of when someone wanted to point out that Bioshock Infinite and The last of Us, while being standouts in terms of female characters in video games, still had some cliches on them that where based in some pretty old sexist thinking.

And the internet decided to react to that by going apeshit. Because the good stuff out weighs the bad stuff like 85/15 so that has to round out to progressive feminist right?

So I'm more concerned with the internet not being able to discuss sexist, homophobic, racist stuff without going nuclear. The idea that you can still criticize something good and you like being too far out there for a lot of people.

Because now-a-days everyone is trained to reflexively respond to overt bigotry, like celebrities who go on weird tirades about slavery and professional athletes who go rambo on their girlfriend's faces. Which is nice. But when you wanna talk about the subtle things, the kind of bigotry designed to slip past that modern filter, it gets impossible.

because internet does not do subtly.

 

[Gronk]

But with regards to your analogy, I've got to say no, I'm afraid I don't really see what you're saying. =P

What I meant was just that I don't think they should go away, because if that many people are saying something about "our hobby", then chances are there is some truth behind it. Now for me personally, I have no problems seeing what the critizism is about, but even if i didn't, I hope I would be open minded enough to realize that they could be right.

 

[Fox12]

Lumping all women and feminists under a single label is as silly as lumping all gamers under a single label. It doesn't work that way. Did you know that there are feminists who don't like Zoe Quinn? It's true. There are actually branches and denomination, and under that there are individuals with their own thoughts and opinions. Incidentally, what do you mean by "our" hobby? No one owns gaming as a hobby. Are you talking about straight white male gamers? Hardcore gamers? How would you even define a hardcore gamer?

Also, you've completely misunderstood what the Zoe Quinn issue is about. It's not about Zoe Quinn being a feminist, it has to do with corruption in the industry. She actually sabotaged a feminist fundraiser. By claiming that people are mad about feminism all you've done is derail the central argument.

 

[burnout02urza]

It's long past time for the feminists to take a good, hard look at themselves. They're taking everything as an excuse to be offended - More, they're DEMANDING that people comply with them, so that their delicate sensibilities aren't offended. They're assaulting the hobby under the guise of pushing for political correctness...And with the recent scandal, we've seen how many of them are actually insane.

Like, they're literally frothing at the mouth.

I don't really understand why anyone's listening to them, to be honest. I get the feeling that people are too afraid to be labelled as 'sexist', where the really radical, really crazy ones should invite open and public mockery.

 

[Mid Boss]

Feminism is the belief that the two genders are equal and should be treated as such. So it boggles my mind when I see women say "I'm not a feminist." So, you would like to lose the ability to own property and vote? Because, without feminism, you'd go back to being a second class citizen.

The problem with feminism is that it's being hijacked by extremists. The people who desperately want to find something wrong with EVERYTHING EVER and the people who think women are innately superior. I just had to unfriend someone on facebook because she was posting how much all men are scum. I responded "Hey now. " and she said "Well, you're the very rare exception." Can you imagine if I had said all women are whores except the ones on my friends list? I'd be fucking lynched! These are NOT feminists they are female supremacists. When you go on about how the other gender is all shit then you aren't fighting for equality anymore. You're propping yourself up as the superior gender. These people are giving the anti-feminist crowd all the ammunition they need.

So now anti-feminists (male supremacists) are armed with blog posts and tumblr tangents. It doesn't matter if those posts are the rantings of idiots and female supremacists. In their mind they finally have proof of what their paranoia and insecurities have been telling them for years. Women are coming to destroy everything they love. It's like taking pictures and blog posts of the Westboro Baptist church and saying this is what all Christian are. Even though the vast majority of Christians blatantly fucking hate Westboro.

Both sides are dragging the word feminism through the mud. Both sides are a bunch of reactionary dumb asses running around screeching and throwing their shit at each other like a pack of monkeys.

 

[CymbaIine]

All politics need to step off our hobby.

Let the content creators have full creative control of their content.

If you don't like female characters in sexy outfits or don't like repetitive male protagonists, don't buy the game. Let the sales speak for themselves if people want something different. If these games sell well, then people obviously want to play these games, don't tell them what they should or should not like.

You can't claim video games are art, and then try to censor it. Take your politics elsewhere.

Ah yes, one of the signs of good art is when it's subject and content is determined by how well it sells.

 

[burnout02urza]

So now we've got the extremists on the other end of the spectrum, the feminism haters, armed with blog posts and tumblr tangents crying that the feminists are coming to destroy everything they love.

Both sides are dragging the word feminism through the mud. Both sides are a pack of reactionary dumb asses running around screeching and throwing their shit at each other like a pack of monkeys.

Well, yeah. Whatever the movement was before, it's mutated in something that's corrosive and terrible.

They literally are coming to destroy everything we love. There's no question about that: The feminist rhetoric is just getting crazier and crazier. Like, who do these people think they are, really? Did God give them a blanket pass to be offended by everything?

Games are bending over to accommodate them - Like the new Lara Croft - and it isn't enough. In fact, nothing is ever going to be enough for them: The only solution is to laugh them off and cut them out entirely. If I was a game developer, I'd be making games to mock them, so the other side would rally to me. It's not like the insane feminists actually buy games, anyway: The just make noise.

edit: Frankly, I was all for diversity - But this issue has polarized me. If you give them an inch, they'll fight for a mile. You can't give these people anything at all. They have to be completely discredited, and - to be brutally blunt - crushed. Because *that's what they're trying to do to us.*

In the words of that guy from 300 - "GIVE THEM NOTHING, BUT TAKE FROM THEM...EVERYTHING!"

 

[CymbaIine]

All politics need to step off our hobby.

Let the content creators have full creative control of their content.

If you don't like female characters in sexy outfits or don't like repetitive male protagonists, don't buy the game. Let the sales speak for themselves if people want something different. If these games sell well, then people obviously want to play these games, don't tell them what they should or should not like.

You can't claim video games are art, and then try to censor it. Take your politics elsewhere.

Ah yes, one of the signs of good art is when it's subject and content is determined by how well it sells.

Some art, yes. I suggest you look up Monet.

Never heard of him so he can't be much cop.

Seriously though you can't go crying ART on one hand and CONSUMER PRODUCT on the other. Of course there is some overlap but you can't pick the most convenient parts of both (lack of censorship for art and let the market decide for product)and construct an argument around it. Well you can but it won't be a strong one.

 

[Suhi89]

I have a lot of problems with a lot of things self identified feminists say, both in general and about gaming, but my God is this a needlessly inflammatory article headline and poorly thought out article.

Feminists have as much right to play and have an opinion on games as anyone else. Their opinions may be based on flawed logic but that's not exclusive to feminists and I don't think we should expel those who enjoy RTS games either even though they're clearly wrong (I kid).

Most feminists just want there to be better representation of women in video games. That is a perfectly valid desire. I happen to disagree with much of what they say, but I defend their right to put their view forward, preferably free from abuse, threats or people telling them they're not welcome in our community.

 

[visiblenoise]

If the writers don't have the balls to brush off the feminist/extremist/whatever criticism they are bound to get in this climate, and write whatever the hell they want, maybe it's just as well that they don't write whatever the hell they want. It would be a sad thing, but they're ultimately the ones taking the brunt of the criticism, not their audience.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Well, yeah. Whatever the movement was before, it's mutated in something that's corrosive and terrible.

No, it didn't.

What did happen was a lot of people with raging confirmation biases and an inability to think critically about the things they see and read conflated the activities and statements of fringers with a social movement they didn't particularly understand.

They literally are coming to destroy everything we love.

The human body is not capable of enough laughter to properly respond to statements like this.

But, the point was, you can't call something art and then try to censor it.

I'm not entirely sure what your position is on this, but criticism =/= censorship.

 

[Robert Marrs]

Attacking weaker and less populated subcultures is a very effective tactic. If you can get the geeks and nerds who are not very masculine in the first place on your side(obviously not all gamers are like this its just a generalization that leads to what we have now)you will have a decent sized section of men dedicated to fighting your cause. You co-opt things like comics, sci-fi, technology, computers and video games to make things easier going forward. Pretty much everything feminism practices when it comes to spreading its ideology is ripped straight from Marxism 101. Divide and conquer.

 

[maxben]

There is no "our" hobby because I don't want to be in your little club. My sister is certainly a feminist, and we played video games together since we were little. And yes, she enjoys less a game that goes against her ideals. Just like I have a hard time playing Watch Dogs because Aiden is such a dick which goes against my ideals as a person. Certain trends which are alienating have no reason to exist, and there is rarely a justification for them. I choose to be grouped with her.

And no, your back-pedalling on the language you use is ridiculous, the language you use IS an important part of an argument and inflammatory, not innocuous. We can change it up if you want. "Blacks should stay off our hobby" "Jews should stay off our hobby" "Gays should stay off our hobby". When you are so incapable of basic introspection that you don't see why that is an awful thing to say, that PROVES the feminists' point.

Creative people are not automatically smart people, they aren't crafting truth, they are just putting themselves with all of their biases and ticks on to a medium in a sometimes aesthetically pleasing and entertaining way. Your art has no integrity if you refuse to admit that. If I draw a bouquet of roses and one is drawn terribly but the others look great, I cannot hide from the criticism of my art unless I pull the ol "you just don't get it!". If I make beautiful characters in a story, and then a disgusting female stereotype, it is just as much open to criticism. So no, flowery words of "creative vision" and "artistic integrity" ultimately mean very little because your creations aren't sacred artefacts that deserve to be free from criticism when your vision is wrongheaded and you are blind to your own issues as a creator.

 

[Cronenberg1]

All politics need to step off our hobby.

Let the content creators have full creative control of their content.

If you don't like female characters in sexy outfits or don't like repetitive male protagonists, don't buy the game. Let the sales speak for themselves if people want something different. If these games sell well, then people obviously want to play these games, don't tell them what they should or should not like.

You can't claim video games are art, and then try to censor it. Take your politics elsewhere.

Critique is not the same thing as censorship. Every art form has had been analyzed and picked apart by people. Games have gotten by with not getting these kinds of criticisms because no one regarded them as worthy of those criticisms. Real world issues are discussed in films all the time, why should games be different? Films did not evolve through box office hits, much of film evolved by creative people having discussions and taking risks. Rashomon did not do well at the box office but it's still an important movie, and we know this now because people talked about it. If games are indeed art then you can't deny them the right to be criticized.

 

[Harpalyce]

Well now, that original post certainly doesn't reek of "eewww ladies gettin' cooties all up in my manspace waaah". Wait, did I say doesn't? I mean does. Absolutely.

What feminists ultimately want are well-rounded characters that avoid tired old tropes everyone is sick to death of. No more cardboard damsels in distress. No more little girls just waiting around to be protected. Instead interesting people with the power to do interesting things. If you go into things with that mindset, then suddenly good writing is almost inevitable if not much easier to realize. We'll have characters with motivations that are well-rounded. You know, like real people, which are interesting things, instead of empty and vapid sex dolls.

If that is something you don't want in your video games, then much like the children in Charlie Brown cartoons listening to adults, whatever you say becomes just so much white noise to me and the rest of the majority of gamers, who, as the news is so happy to point out to us lately, are now women.

And if you describe feminists the same way one would describe a creeping slime mold, I'm not saying you likely have a problem with women, but - okay yes, yes I am. There's no such thing as feminists invading the video game industry. It's just finally enough traction in this wave of video games. Feminists have always been here. Female gamers have always been here. THE PHONE CALL IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE THERE IS NO ESCAPE OHMYGAWD.

Quit your crying, grow up, and realize that what's going to come from this is better games. And if you can't handle the idea of your favourite medium becoming less shitty, then it's time to not call yourself a gamer.

 

[Childe]

My problem with this entire debacle is not that one side is obviously wrong or right but that everyone is treating video games like the next big social rights issue when they aren't. Gaining equal rights for everyone regardless of color was, and is, a big issue that had a lot of debate around it, women gaining equal rights was, and is, a big issue that had a lot of debate around it. Video games on the other hand....yes video games are becoming more and more popular and are gaining more and more attention for both good and bad reasons, however no matter how much attention video games get, they are at their very core, merchandise. Because video games are merchandise they get to fall under the basic rule of capitalist culture: people can make whatever they want. Now if its dangerous the government might take it, but other then that people are free to come up with whatever they want and produce whatever they want. Someone making a set of clothing geared towards whites, or blacks, or Asians and nobody else does not make that person racist by itself, it just means that someone had this idea and decided to produce it. The same idea applies to games; producers have the RIGHT to make whatever they want. They have no need to cater to the whims of the public. Now the consumer has every right not to buy something and if they don't like it they shouldn't. Rockstar isn't a sexist company because GTA has hookers. They wanted to build and game around a specific part of American Culture and decided that hookers were necessary in order to make that world as realistic as possible. Assassin's creed having all white protagonists doesn't make the publishers racist, the company decided that's what the game needed and went for it. If Rockstar treated their female employees like hookers then they would be sexist and we should be up in arms. If Ubisoft refuses to hire non white people then they are racist and we should be up in arms.

All this being said we as the consumer shouldn't let companies get away with making crap because they have no respect for the consumer, we need to be a force for change. That being said if a developer wants to make a game a specific way they should have every right to do so without people making death threats and complaining about sexism and racism. So in answer to the OP, I don't think they should step off, they should play and love games and be a consumer that forces changes. Should people stop complaining so much? Yes. People complain to much and do to little. If you want change stop talking about it and do something about it. Boycotting is a great way to do so, espicially with a consumer product. If you don't like GTA games and want them to do better then organize as many people as you can and boycott the game. Developers will listen because they need sales in order to keep their jobs. But don't just sit around complaining about the way developers choose to make their games.

 

[Texas Joker 52]

*le snip*

Well said. Very well said. Personally, I don't see the point in most of the uproar. Lets face it, there is no game out there without flaws, and all could use some constructive criticism to improve. After all, stagnation is bad regardless of the industry. Not only that, but if someone's criticism causes you to no longer enjoy a game, you have to really wonder why you enjoyed it in the first place. A good game is enjoyable despite of it's flaws. For example: I enjoy Dragon Age 2 as a game. Sure, the dungeons are repeated a little too often for my tastes even though I personally feel it's justified, some characters are kind of grating, and the approval system is a bit of a pain. But I still have fun with it.

Really, I just think that whoever get's up in arms with Video Games actually being taken seriously should chill out some. Relax. Constructive criticism is a good thing. Prejudiced hate is not. As cliche as the line is... Can't we all just get along?

Spoiler: Like this puppy.

This puppy doesn't care who or what you are, they're happy to see you regardless.

 

[Lieju]

OK, perhaps I worded my introductory statement poorly. I wasn't trying to imply that people who identify as feminist cannot claim gaming as a hobby, or that there is some kind of division between the two. What I meant to say was "our hobby" (as in users of this website, not claiming my own personal ownership) and feminists "stepping off" meaning stopping criticising, at least in the sense of the artistic content of the games. At any rate it was meant to be an open question. I absolutely accept that people should put forward arguments for what they want to see in games, but I take issue with people criticising a game because it is NOT what they wanted to see, at least in terms of is demographic inclusivity.

Wut?

If you want to be taken seriously as an artist you need to be able to accept criticism. Welcome it, even.
Otherwise you're just an auteur throwing a hissy-fit because people didn't like your game.

And Wut X2?

You take issue with people criticising a game for it not being what they wanted?
And how is criticising 'demographic inclusitivity' any different from criticising anything else?

Especially if the game has other strengths.
You really like the combat-system, and the plot, except that one female character that really bothers you because you feel she's objectified or there's some other issues.

How is giving criticism on that any different than saying 'the combat-system on this newest Magicfantasyquest was really dumbed down and bad'?

Or even just preferences.

There are a LOT of Resident Evil fans who are disappointed at how the series went into more combat-oriented direction. Should they not be able to critique that?

Or how Jill's character was handled in RE5 where she was sidelined and the abuse she had suffered was just completely ignored by the plot?

It's really annoying how critiquing things like female representation suddenly turns into non-acceptable criticism.

 

[RedDeadFred]

No.

Sure, some of the big-name feminists get their facts wrong, but that shouldn't discredit an entire movement that is working with ideals that SHOULD be common sense in today's society.