Attacking weaker and less populated subcultures is a very effective tactic. If you can get the geeks and nerds who are not very masculine in the first place on your side(obviously not all gamers are like this its just a generalization that leads to what we have now)you will have a decent sized section of men dedicated to fighting your cause. You co-opt things like comics, sci-fi, technology, computers and video games to make things easier going forward. Pretty much everything feminism practices when it comes to spreading its ideology is ripped straight from Marxism 101. Divide and conquer.
Is it time for feminists to step off our hobby?
- Thread starter Mandalore_15
- Start date
There is no "our" hobby because I don't want to be in your little club. My sister is certainly a feminist, and we played video games together since we were little. And yes, she enjoys less a game that goes against her ideals. Just like I have a hard time playing Watch Dogs because Aiden is such a dick which goes against my ideals as a person. Certain trends which are alienating have no reason to exist, and there is rarely a justification for them. I choose to be grouped with her.
And no, your back-pedalling on the language you use is ridiculous, the language you use IS an important part of an argument and inflammatory, not innocuous. We can change it up if you want. "Blacks should stay off our hobby" "Jews should stay off our hobby" "Gays should stay off our hobby". When you are so incapable of basic introspection that you don't see why that is an awful thing to say, that PROVES the feminists' point.
Creative people are not automatically smart people, they aren't crafting truth, they are just putting themselves with all of their biases and ticks on to a medium in a sometimes aesthetically pleasing and entertaining way. Your art has no integrity if you refuse to admit that. If I draw a bouquet of roses and one is drawn terribly but the others look great, I cannot hide from the criticism of my art unless I pull the ol "you just don't get it!". If I make beautiful characters in a story, and then a disgusting female stereotype, it is just as much open to criticism. So no, flowery words of "creative vision" and "artistic integrity" ultimately mean very little because your creations aren't sacred artefacts that deserve to be free from criticism when your vision is wrongheaded and you are blind to your own issues as a creator.
And no, your back-pedalling on the language you use is ridiculous, the language you use IS an important part of an argument and inflammatory, not innocuous. We can change it up if you want. "Blacks should stay off our hobby" "Jews should stay off our hobby" "Gays should stay off our hobby". When you are so incapable of basic introspection that you don't see why that is an awful thing to say, that PROVES the feminists' point.
Creative people are not automatically smart people, they aren't crafting truth, they are just putting themselves with all of their biases and ticks on to a medium in a sometimes aesthetically pleasing and entertaining way. Your art has no integrity if you refuse to admit that. If I draw a bouquet of roses and one is drawn terribly but the others look great, I cannot hide from the criticism of my art unless I pull the ol "you just don't get it!". If I make beautiful characters in a story, and then a disgusting female stereotype, it is just as much open to criticism. So no, flowery words of "creative vision" and "artistic integrity" ultimately mean very little because your creations aren't sacred artefacts that deserve to be free from criticism when your vision is wrongheaded and you are blind to your own issues as a creator.
Critique is not the same thing as censorship. Every art form has had been analyzed and picked apart by people. Games have gotten by with not getting these kinds of criticisms because no one regarded them as worthy of those criticisms. Real world issues are discussed in films all the time, why should games be different? Films did not evolve through box office hits, much of film evolved by creative people having discussions and taking risks. Rashomon did not do well at the box office but it's still an important movie, and we know this now because people talked about it. If games are indeed art then you can't deny them the right to be criticized.valium said:
Well now, that original post certainly doesn't reek of "eewww ladies gettin' cooties all up in my manspace waaah". Wait, did I say doesn't? I mean does. Absolutely.
What feminists ultimately want are well-rounded characters that avoid tired old tropes everyone is sick to death of. No more cardboard damsels in distress. No more little girls just waiting around to be protected. Instead interesting people with the power to do interesting things. If you go into things with that mindset, then suddenly good writing is almost inevitable if not much easier to realize. We'll have characters with motivations that are well-rounded. You know, like real people, which are interesting things, instead of empty and vapid sex dolls.
If that is something you don't want in your video games, then much like the children in Charlie Brown cartoons listening to adults, whatever you say becomes just so much white noise to me and the rest of the majority of gamers, who, as the news is so happy to point out to us lately, are now women.
And if you describe feminists the same way one would describe a creeping slime mold, I'm not saying you likely have a problem with women, but - okay yes, yes I am. There's no such thing as feminists invading the video game industry. It's just finally enough traction in this wave of video games. Feminists have always been here. Female gamers have always been here. THE PHONE CALL IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE THERE IS NO ESCAPE OHMYGAWD.
Quit your crying, grow up, and realize that what's going to come from this is better games. And if you can't handle the idea of your favourite medium becoming less shitty, then it's time to not call yourself a gamer.
What feminists ultimately want are well-rounded characters that avoid tired old tropes everyone is sick to death of. No more cardboard damsels in distress. No more little girls just waiting around to be protected. Instead interesting people with the power to do interesting things. If you go into things with that mindset, then suddenly good writing is almost inevitable if not much easier to realize. We'll have characters with motivations that are well-rounded. You know, like real people, which are interesting things, instead of empty and vapid sex dolls.
If that is something you don't want in your video games, then much like the children in Charlie Brown cartoons listening to adults, whatever you say becomes just so much white noise to me and the rest of the majority of gamers, who, as the news is so happy to point out to us lately, are now women.
And if you describe feminists the same way one would describe a creeping slime mold, I'm not saying you likely have a problem with women, but - okay yes, yes I am. There's no such thing as feminists invading the video game industry. It's just finally enough traction in this wave of video games. Feminists have always been here. Female gamers have always been here. THE PHONE CALL IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE THERE IS NO ESCAPE OHMYGAWD.
Quit your crying, grow up, and realize that what's going to come from this is better games. And if you can't handle the idea of your favourite medium becoming less shitty, then it's time to not call yourself a gamer.
My problem with this entire debacle is not that one side is obviously wrong or right but that everyone is treating video games like the next big social rights issue when they aren't. Gaining equal rights for everyone regardless of color was, and is, a big issue that had a lot of debate around it, women gaining equal rights was, and is, a big issue that had a lot of debate around it. Video games on the other hand....yes video games are becoming more and more popular and are gaining more and more attention for both good and bad reasons, however no matter how much attention video games get, they are at their very core, merchandise. Because video games are merchandise they get to fall under the basic rule of capitalist culture: people can make whatever they want. Now if its dangerous the government might take it, but other then that people are free to come up with whatever they want and produce whatever they want. Someone making a set of clothing geared towards whites, or blacks, or Asians and nobody else does not make that person racist by itself, it just means that someone had this idea and decided to produce it. The same idea applies to games; producers have the RIGHT to make whatever they want. They have no need to cater to the whims of the public. Now the consumer has every right not to buy something and if they don't like it they shouldn't. Rockstar isn't a sexist company because GTA has hookers. They wanted to build and game around a specific part of American Culture and decided that hookers were necessary in order to make that world as realistic as possible. Assassin's creed having all white protagonists doesn't make the publishers racist, the company decided that's what the game needed and went for it. If Rockstar treated their female employees like hookers then they would be sexist and we should be up in arms. If Ubisoft refuses to hire non white people then they are racist and we should be up in arms.
All this being said we as the consumer shouldn't let companies get away with making crap because they have no respect for the consumer, we need to be a force for change. That being said if a developer wants to make a game a specific way they should have every right to do so without people making death threats and complaining about sexism and racism. So in answer to the OP, I don't think they should step off, they should play and love games and be a consumer that forces changes. Should people stop complaining so much? Yes. People complain to much and do to little. If you want change stop talking about it and do something about it. Boycotting is a great way to do so, espicially with a consumer product. If you don't like GTA games and want them to do better then organize as many people as you can and boycott the game. Developers will listen because they need sales in order to keep their jobs. But don't just sit around complaining about the way developers choose to make their games.
All this being said we as the consumer shouldn't let companies get away with making crap because they have no respect for the consumer, we need to be a force for change. That being said if a developer wants to make a game a specific way they should have every right to do so without people making death threats and complaining about sexism and racism. So in answer to the OP, I don't think they should step off, they should play and love games and be a consumer that forces changes. Should people stop complaining so much? Yes. People complain to much and do to little. If you want change stop talking about it and do something about it. Boycotting is a great way to do so, espicially with a consumer product. If you don't like GTA games and want them to do better then organize as many people as you can and boycott the game. Developers will listen because they need sales in order to keep their jobs. But don't just sit around complaining about the way developers choose to make their games.
Well said. Very well said. Personally, I don't see the point in most of the uproar. Lets face it, there is no game out there without flaws, and all could use some constructive criticism to improve. After all, stagnation is bad regardless of the industry. Not only that, but if someone's criticism causes you to no longer enjoy a game, you have to really wonder why you enjoyed it in the first place. A good game is enjoyable despite of it's flaws. For example: I enjoy Dragon Age 2 as a game. Sure, the dungeons are repeated a little too often for my tastes even though I personally feel it's justified, some characters are kind of grating, and the approval system is a bit of a pain. But I still have fun with it.DeathQuaker said:
Really, I just think that whoever get's up in arms with Video Games actually being taken seriously should chill out some. Relax. Constructive criticism is a good thing. Prejudiced hate is not. As cliche as the line is... Can't we all just get along?
This puppy doesn't care who or what you are, they're happy to see you regardless.
Wut?Mandalore_15 said:
If you want to be taken seriously as an artist you need to be able to accept criticism. Welcome it, even.
Otherwise you're just an auteur throwing a hissy-fit because people didn't like your game.
And Wut X2?
You take issue with people criticising a game for it not being what they wanted?
And how is criticising 'demographic inclusitivity' any different from criticising anything else?
Especially if the game has other strengths.
You really like the combat-system, and the plot, except that one female character that really bothers you because you feel she's objectified or there's some other issues.
How is giving criticism on that any different than saying 'the combat-system on this newest Magicfantasyquest was really dumbed down and bad'?
Or even just preferences.
There are a LOT of Resident Evil fans who are disappointed at how the series went into more combat-oriented direction. Should they not be able to critique that?
Or how Jill's character was handled in RE5 where she was sidelined and the abuse she had suffered was just completely ignored by the plot?
It's really annoying how critiquing things like female representation suddenly turns into non-acceptable criticism.
No.
Sure, some of the big-name feminists get their facts wrong, but that shouldn't discredit an entire movement that is working with ideals that SHOULD be common sense in today's society.
Sure, some of the big-name feminists get their facts wrong, but that shouldn't discredit an entire movement that is working with ideals that SHOULD be common sense in today's society.
There are fifteen definitions of feminism, all differing, in this already brief thread. That's more of a problem than anything.
I'm a straight, white male and I'd call myself a feminist. I base my definition on the idea that all people should be treated equally regardless of gender.
With that said, I don't know that any mention of feminism in this thread matches what I just said. It's time to stop throwing around words that the gaming universe has apparently defined 50000 ways by now in order to again prove the painful inefficient nature of human communication.
OP: You mention Elizabeth and Elie. You mention new Lara Croft. Imagine how much more fruitful a discussion of them individually, outside of Anita/Quinn controversy culture, outside of MRA bullshit, outside of "FEMINISM," would be.
Here are 3 threads that would all be more productive within 3 posts than this one will be within 500:
-Does the inherent empowerment of Elizabeth's character in Bioshock Infinite's narrative usurp her "supporting" role in the gameplay?
-Is seeing Lara Croft die in the wildnerness more difficult for anyone because seeing a female protagonist die unflinchingly is rare in popular media outside of horror films? Is it because she is female or is it because we are attached to her so much as the hero we control?
-The developers/writers of The Last of Us made the intentional move to make Joel's daughter/Elie female characters. What differences do you think the "feel" of the story would have had if Joel's child was a boy? Accordingly, how would the game change if Joel's "new partner" in the dead and dying world was a teen boy?
In other words, stop getting caught up in social media shitstorm garbage, and let's have an actual discussion that matters as opposed to taking up arms over arbitrary definitions that people less smart than we are have painted the walls with.
I'm a straight, white male and I'd call myself a feminist. I base my definition on the idea that all people should be treated equally regardless of gender.
With that said, I don't know that any mention of feminism in this thread matches what I just said. It's time to stop throwing around words that the gaming universe has apparently defined 50000 ways by now in order to again prove the painful inefficient nature of human communication.
OP: You mention Elizabeth and Elie. You mention new Lara Croft. Imagine how much more fruitful a discussion of them individually, outside of Anita/Quinn controversy culture, outside of MRA bullshit, outside of "FEMINISM," would be.
Here are 3 threads that would all be more productive within 3 posts than this one will be within 500:
-Does the inherent empowerment of Elizabeth's character in Bioshock Infinite's narrative usurp her "supporting" role in the gameplay?
-Is seeing Lara Croft die in the wildnerness more difficult for anyone because seeing a female protagonist die unflinchingly is rare in popular media outside of horror films? Is it because she is female or is it because we are attached to her so much as the hero we control?
-The developers/writers of The Last of Us made the intentional move to make Joel's daughter/Elie female characters. What differences do you think the "feel" of the story would have had if Joel's child was a boy? Accordingly, how would the game change if Joel's "new partner" in the dead and dying world was a teen boy?
In other words, stop getting caught up in social media shitstorm garbage, and let's have an actual discussion that matters as opposed to taking up arms over arbitrary definitions that people less smart than we are have painted the walls with.
You, sir, deserve many up-votes for this.The_Scrivener said:
Alas, this website does not support up-votes, so you get nothing.
Gaming and feminism actually seem to share this trait with each other. Gamers can never seem to agree on what exactly qualifies oneself as a gamer. Do casual mobile gamers count? Do you have to immerse yourself in the culture or treat it like a lifestyle? Does it have to be you main hobby or just one of many? Does just owning a console count? How many games do you need to play to be considered a gamer? Is there a mandatory social stigma attached, i.e. do you have to be nerdy or geeky to be considered a real gamer?The_Scrivener said:
I've been gaming for longer than most of the people on this site have been alive and I'm a feminist. Remind me who should be doing the stepping off, again?
Hell, developers seem far more amenable to "feminism" than gamers. Why is it that gamers are so quick to get offended on behalf of people who aren't themselves bothered? That sounds an awful lot like the definition of "Social Justice Warrior" people toss around.
I have a feeling the argument for artistic integrity goes away the minute that grasp does. Hell, people are already complaining about the Saints Row dev and Tim Scaffer for voluntarily supporting Anita Sarkeesian. Worse, apparently Volition actually cared about this sort of thing before IV came out, and we still got the anal probe weapon and S&M Kinzie. If this is the horror of political correctness, I...really don't see what people are complaining about. It's almost like you can include women voluntarily, and even make a fun game people like.
Oh crap, this was about straw feminism and getting "them" out of here. My bad.
I always love this idea that games have somehow made it to the point where they rival other media in terms of storytelling and character. They can do things other media can't, but as far as character and writing go, they rarely reach dime novel/C movie status. TLOU may be the greatest game of all time[footnote]Never played it, I'm just offering this as a hypothetical based on the way people treat it[/footnote] but that doesn't make it significantly great compared to other media.BloatedGuppy said:
Are you really, or do you just not like the label? Several of your recent responses would have me believe that not only do you think women should be treated equally, but also that women should get more representation in games (the latter including this very post). As such, you're espousing feminism. Hell, suggesting Peach could rescue Mario puts you dangerously in the dreaded Sarkeesian Zone *screams of horror*Not The Bees said:
Are Volition bad developers, then?Doom972 said:
Hell, developers seem far more amenable to "feminism" than gamers. Why is it that gamers are so quick to get offended on behalf of people who aren't themselves bothered? That sounds an awful lot like the definition of "Social Justice Warrior" people toss around.
It's also a load of crap anyway, as these games are focused grouped to exclusion. Hell, Naughty Dog had to fight just to show the character OP is lauding on the box.DementedSheep said:
I have a feeling the argument for artistic integrity goes away the minute that grasp does. Hell, people are already complaining about the Saints Row dev and Tim Scaffer for voluntarily supporting Anita Sarkeesian. Worse, apparently Volition actually cared about this sort of thing before IV came out, and we still got the anal probe weapon and S&M Kinzie. If this is the horror of political correctness, I...really don't see what people are complaining about. It's almost like you can include women voluntarily, and even make a fun game people like.
Oh crap, this was about straw feminism and getting "them" out of here. My bad.
Anita Sarkeesian is only our current Queen. It was etched in stone generations ago by the great feminists overladies of the 1980s, who also decreed that we would not rest until comic books were nothing but mixed-race lesbians who complained about their periods. In fact, anita has very little autonomy, because we ran out of space on the sacred tablets of feminine superiority in 1998.Andy Shandy said:
I would say no, gaming is for everyone - but you do have to find your niche genre. BUT i think they would be better dealing with real world issues instead of games. Like models that are photoshopped in mags yet are used to give woman a false sense of a real figure. Female role models that think its great to use sex and their bodies to sell themselves and their songs etc. Its not female empowerment. I think they chose games as its an easy target, fixing real world issues is way more difficult.
You are included in "our" because you are a user of this site, which I stated was who I was referring to with the determiner. But if you want to go ahead and criticise someone without even reading what they have to say then be my guest.Charli said:
So who, relevant to this topic, is saying they can't put something in a game?valium said:
I mean, other than the publishers, who apparently won't support female protagonists for the most part. Or women on the box art. Or, really, women in consideration as part of the focus groups. I mean, that's an example, but it's antithetical to your prior statement that content creators should have full control of their content.
Yo, just wondering how many people are going to read this anyway and not base my opinion on my previous actions which were anti-feminst to be honest.
Now, about the issue at hand. Video game gaming is a hobby of millions, hundreds of millions if some studies are to be belived. There is place in there for everyone. If term gamer represents person that enjoys games on as great time scale as live allows to that person, we have everyone among us from Nobel prize winners to mass murderers. And we all enjoy our games, often together not knowing absolutely anything about each other other than skill set. And that's so beautiful to me. Rebeka Watson and David Futrelle could play journey together and have time of their life, even an emotional experience of their lives even tho I could easily see them at each others throats on sight.
I also believe it's normal to want to be represented in medium you enjoy so much. There is something in having perfect image of yourself in what you enjoy that can't really be replaced fully in any other way.
But on the other hand, kicking the door in and yelling will only get you that same door slammed back in your face. Instinctive reaction to assholes, and if you are kicking the door in, you are with large probability an asshole.
I see many that identify as feminists here that have perfectly normal behavior. I'm sorry that you identify with that movement but that does not reflect on you as persons. Gamers world wide are, mostly, happy that you enjoy same medium we do. Here is my support for getting more of what you like in medium as long as it's set with reasonable standards.
Then there are those with frankly vitriolic attitude that think world should cater to their every whim just because they said so and that feel entitled not to be offended in their lives. Please stay, cut out a portion of this medium for yourselves and keep your voice down. I'm not even going to go into details, i had way to many discussions on that particular subject.
And that is all. Everyone has their place in this vast, vast medium. I sincerely think that more variety would be a good thing, that more perspectives always make for a better medium. But at the same time I also believe that every perceptive has it's own right to be explored. I may find them offensive, even repugnant, stupid, horrible, but I want that too. The more the better. And if you don't like it say that you don't like it and in future don't buy such products.
Well this turned into another lecture by your truly. Sorry, didn't intend to write it like that but I can't be assed to rewrite it.
Now, about the issue at hand. Video game gaming is a hobby of millions, hundreds of millions if some studies are to be belived. There is place in there for everyone. If term gamer represents person that enjoys games on as great time scale as live allows to that person, we have everyone among us from Nobel prize winners to mass murderers. And we all enjoy our games, often together not knowing absolutely anything about each other other than skill set. And that's so beautiful to me. Rebeka Watson and David Futrelle could play journey together and have time of their life, even an emotional experience of their lives even tho I could easily see them at each others throats on sight.
I also believe it's normal to want to be represented in medium you enjoy so much. There is something in having perfect image of yourself in what you enjoy that can't really be replaced fully in any other way.
But on the other hand, kicking the door in and yelling will only get you that same door slammed back in your face. Instinctive reaction to assholes, and if you are kicking the door in, you are with large probability an asshole.
I see many that identify as feminists here that have perfectly normal behavior. I'm sorry that you identify with that movement but that does not reflect on you as persons. Gamers world wide are, mostly, happy that you enjoy same medium we do. Here is my support for getting more of what you like in medium as long as it's set with reasonable standards.
Then there are those with frankly vitriolic attitude that think world should cater to their every whim just because they said so and that feel entitled not to be offended in their lives. Please stay, cut out a portion of this medium for yourselves and keep your voice down. I'm not even going to go into details, i had way to many discussions on that particular subject.
And that is all. Everyone has their place in this vast, vast medium. I sincerely think that more variety would be a good thing, that more perspectives always make for a better medium. But at the same time I also believe that every perceptive has it's own right to be explored. I may find them offensive, even repugnant, stupid, horrible, but I want that too. The more the better. And if you don't like it say that you don't like it and in future don't buy such products.
Well this turned into another lecture by your truly. Sorry, didn't intend to write it like that but I can't be assed to rewrite it.
I don't think there's anything wrong in pushing for more equality in gaming, but the SJW/feminist brigade that has reared it's ugly head again in light of the recent debacle is not really interested in that. Look at how quickly they shut down the Fine Young Capitalists; these people wanted to get more women in to the gaming industry, women who were interested in games and just wanted a chance to get their foot in the door. That was deemed as sexist and oppressive, because sexist and oppressive means doing anything against these bigot's opinions.
What needs to be removed from the gaming world is this endless string of rules on what is offensive, censorship, and repression of creativity and expression. People need to be able to make and play whatever fucking game they want without fear of it hurting someone's feelings.
What needs to be removed from the gaming world is this endless string of rules on what is offensive, censorship, and repression of creativity and expression. People need to be able to make and play whatever fucking game they want without fear of it hurting someone's feelings.