Is Nintendo holding the industry back?

[Yuuki]

The necessity here is evident by the influx of quick time events and context sensitivity. Though the solution isn't as simple as add more buttons or a new analogue stick. Or even motion control for that matter.

You do realize QTE's are considered a negative thing right? I could probably count on one hand the number of times where QTE's have actually improved a game. Tons and tons of examples of excellent games with zero/minimal QTE's. And they work just fine with a button press, they are supposed to be "quick".

Adequate but not optimal.

Err yes...I said that's their choice. And if you're referring mouse+kb not being "optimal" for RTS, I have no idea what other control scheme could possibly be better. It's beyond my brain's capacity.

Motion controls were just the first attempt at solving the issue of games wanting to be able to do more things.

That's a tad misleading, assuming that Nintendo was the one who spurred motion controls to begin with, their goal was far from "solving an issue". Nintendo's primary goal with the Wii was to appeal to a demographic that was scared-away from the idea of controllers with buttons, people who associate controller-users with obese basement-dwelling mouth-breathing nerds, i.e. parents, grandparents, very small children, generally folk who have zero interest in mainstream gaming. That demographic turned out to be pretty huge.
Before anyone starts yelling at me with "hey I'M a proper gamer and I loved the Wii!", that's fine n' dandy, but Nintendo already had a Zelda/Mario fanbase willing to buy ANY game from that franchise (regardless of controls/platform) so that's really not saying much. I'll admit even I had a bit of fun with Wii Sports Resort, it was a fun way to blow-off 30 minutes when guests came to visit for some whole-hearted family fun (yaaaay). Other than that, it gathered dust. Sold it off fairly quickly.

You have to look at the console and pc's seperately as they evolved along different paths. The level of control given to players in console games has only gotten more complex shown by the increased complexity in modern controllers.

Dualshock 3 (2007) is almost identical to the original Dualshock (1997) at first glance, there have been minor improvements. Exactly about console controllers has become more complex over the last 10-15 years of 3D games?

PC's have gotten less complex, though I can only speculate to the reason.

Ha, no need to speculate at all, the primary reason is obvious: Console ports. Console ports everywhere.

If we keep going with that argument why don't we just have a controller with a single button that does everything move, jump, attack, interact?

No offense but that's...a really, really dumb analogy. What if you want to jump over an enemy instead of attacking it? How will the game know? Also movement has at least 8 different directions, 10 if you want to go vertical. How can you combine movement with jump/attack? How are you going to tie interaction into all that? How will you rotate/swivel the camera if it's all tied to movement/jumping/attacking/interacting?
Are...are you even familiar with how game controls work and WHY we have different buttons to do different things??? I can't possibly explain all that.

again perfectly fine but not optimal, it could be improved, which is what I believe Nintendo were trying to do.

Guitar Hero controller wasn't optimal for Guitar Hero? What?

 

[wulf3n]

You do realize QTE's are considered a negative thing right? I could probably count on one hand the number of times where QTE's have actually improved a game. Tons and tons of examples of excellent games with zero/minimal QTE's. And they work just fine with a button press, they are supposed to be "quick".

Yes which is why I said they were a sign of limitations in current control methods. While not the only reason for Quick Time events mind you.

Err yes...I said that's their choice. And if you're referring mouse+kb not being "optimal" for RTS, I have no idea what other control scheme could possibly be better. It's beyond my brain's capacity.

Your missing the point. Just because something works does not mean it can't be improved.

That's a tad misleading, assuming that Nintendo was the one who spurred motion controls to begin with, their goal was far from "solving an issue". Nintendo's primary goal with the Wii was to appeal to a demographic that was scared-away from the idea of controllers with buttons, people who associate controller-users with obese basement-dwelling mouth-breathing nerds, i.e. parents, grandparents, very small children, generally folk who have zero interest in mainstream gaming. That demographic turned out to be pretty huge.

So there issue with controllers was barrier to entry, I'm not seeing your point.

Ha, no need to speculate at all, the primary reason is obvious: Console ports. Console ports everywhere.

I agree, it's just not something I can backup if someone challenges.

No offense but that's...a really, really dumb analogy. What if you want to jump over an enemy instead of attacking it? How will the game know? Also movement has at least 8 different directions, 10 if you want to go vertical. How can you combine movement with jump/attack? How are you going to tie interaction into all that? How will you rotate/swivel the camera if it's all tied to movement/jumping/attacking/interacting?
Are...are you even familiar with how game controls work and WHY we have different buttons to do different things??? I can't possibly explain all that.

The point was exaggerated I'll admit, but it was trying to show my rationale. The controller to me is a way of becoming the character, the more actions that are bundled to a single context sensitive button the less control I feel I have.

edit: It may seem trivial to most but having the button that opens a door be the same as the one that picks up the ammo, which is the same as the one that makes me climb a ledge is a limitation to me.

Guitar Hero controller wasn't optimal for Guitar Hero? What?

Not the guitar hero controller, the concept of needing game specific peripherals. It works, but it'd be nice not to have an entire fake recording studio in my living room just to play rock band.

edit: For some reason this went missing in my post.

Dualshock 3 (2007) is almost identical to the original Dualshock (1997) at first glance, there have been minor improvements. Exactly about console controllers has become more complex over the last 10-15 years of 3D games?

So one company hasn't changed their controller, that doesn't mean controller technology hasn't changed. You only have to look at Nintendos history, or Sega, Or Microsoft. Though Microsoft has been more about ergonomics than control.

 

[WanderingFool]

Until Activision killed the Golden Goose...

Just like any series really. When you think about it, Activision will drop a franchise the moment it stops selling. Case and point, the Guitar Hero franchise, and before that the Tony Hawk franchise which many people seem to have forgotten. XD

... What Tony Hawk franchise?

Second, I would say the problem is not the lack of buttons on the controller, but that excess of buttons reqiured. I mean, do we really need 6 different buttons to determine how high we want to crouch[footnote]This is in reference to System Shock 1, which when I tried, had a shit ton of bottons to do things that I would never use.[/footnote]?

I think we can concieve of more complex gameplay without having to invent new buttons to use...

Perhaps but this then is a case of the developer working around the limitations of the controller.

But whats the alternitive? Either we build the controller around the game or build the game around the controller. While for some games (like GH) this can work, to redessign the controller for every new game seems kinda pointless and expensive.

 

[wulf3n]

But whats the alternitive? Either we build the controller around the game or build the game around the controller. While for some games (like GH) this can work, to redessign the controller for every new game seems kinda pointless and expensive.

Or we experiment with different forms of control at a console level. Like the Wii and WiiU. It's fine if companies don't want to do that either. It's just this notion people have that Nintendo are bad because they're trying out different forms of input.

 

[Roxas1359]

Or we experiment with different forms of control at a console level. Like the Wii and WiiU. It's fine if companies don't want to do that either. It's just this notion people have that Nintendo are bad because they're trying out different forms of input.

I think more of the problem for that in this case is the lack of support for the other types of controllers, or the poor support for those other ones. For example, Nintendo had the Wii U Pro controller out for quite a while, and yet not really any games supported it. (except in Luigi U adding support for it)
This was also the case with the Wii U which while the motion controls fit some games, it would have felt better to have the option of using another input method.
I was honestly curious to see how Galaxy would play if it used a GameCube controller.

Then there's the Wii U with the GamePad in which it's not really being used to it's fullest. Take Pikmin 3 for example, in which it is better to control it with the Wiimote and Nunchuck then the actual GamePad that the console comes with. When I see people saying "just use the Wiimote and Nunchuck instead" I have to ask, what if the person who bought the Wii U didn't have a Wii and so didn't have a controller with Wii Motion Plus? Should a game that is built for a system be controlled the best with the controller that is bundled with it? I mean I've played Pikmin 3 on my Wii U, friend got me it, and honestly I felt like there were huge missed opportunities with that game when it came to the GamePad.

 

[KazeAizen]

Try playing halo on a N64 controller or any PC RTS using anything other than a keyboard and mouse, it's not the same game.
1) Hence Halo (or similar) was never released on an N64. Each major revamp in controls was driven by a huge core necessity...the need for dual analog sticks (or d-pad + analog stick) became obvious once console games went full 3D with player-controlled cameras (PC users already had mouse camera). Bam, console controller revolution.
2) What Yahtzee was hinting at was that our traditional control inputs work just fine for all the games we have today. RTS games evolved on PC around keyboard+mouse controls, they suck on consoles because of Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo's constant refusal at allowing mouse+keyboard as native inputs (no modded adapters). That's their choice, not a technological limitation.

The genuine NEED for motion controls to become a "primary" control method isn't there whatsover. Putting that aside, Yahtzee explained all the other reasons in his Kinect review:

You know what's funny though is that I posted a topic recently related to the RTS genre and the Wii U Gamepad. With that interface Nintendo inadvertently made the best possible console device for an RTS. The way I figured this out is that I basically spent a night and tried mapping the League of Legends control scheme to a console and found no better console suited for it. I don't think we are going for necessity anymore when it comes to game controls. I think that we are at the point that we and by we I mean Nintendo and kind of Microsoft are pioneering new ways to enjoy and play games. In that process they might even create something that used to only work for the PC like I believe Nintendo has done with the Gamepad. As much as people rake modern gaming over the coals and it seems NIntendo especially I think with generation 7 gone and generation 8 here as of the Wii U's launch we have reached that sweet spot of what we know works but now lets play around with other ideas. Hell I think Nintendo realized that in gen 6. We will always have our traditional control inputs but now is the time that when something new pops up we don't run away or condemn but try and embrace it. See if we can make it work and see what new stories or styles of gameplay we can make. Ok done now.

Also that last bit is from my mind as an aspiring game designer. Also note I am a bit of a Nintendo fanboy though I don't hate MS or Sony. In fact I have their consoles. I just think Nintendo has garnered waaaaaaaaayyyyyyy to much unfair hatred among "core" gamers. Besides how can I be mad at them when they saved the Bayonetta franchise?

 

[Yuuki]

You know what's funny though is that I posted a topic recently related to the RTS genre and the Wii U Gamepad. With that interface Nintendo inadvertently made the best possible console device for an RTS. The way I figured this out is that I basically spent a night and tried mapping the League of Legends control scheme to a console and found no better console suited for it. I don't think we are going for necessity anymore when it comes to game controls. I think that we are at the point that we and by we I mean Nintendo and kind of Microsoft are pioneering new ways to enjoy and play games. In that process they might even create something that used to only work for the PC like I believe Nintendo has done with the Gamepad. As much as people rake modern gaming over the coals and it seems NIntendo especially I think with generation 7 gone and generation 8 here as of the Wii U's launch we have reached that sweet spot of what we know works but now lets play around with other ideas. Hell I think Nintendo realized that in gen 6. We will always have our traditional control inputs but now is the time that when something new pops up we don't run away or condemn but try and embrace it. See if we can make it work and see what new stories or styles of gameplay we can make. Ok done now.

Also that last bit is from my mind as an aspiring game designer. Also note I am a bit of a Nintendo fanboy though I don't hate MS or Sony. In fact I have their consoles. I just think Nintendo has garnered waaaaaaaaayyyyyyy to much unfair hatred among "core" gamers.

Agreed, the Wii U's touchscreen is leaps and bounds better suited for RTS than anything else at the moment (and even in the face of next gen). Having use your finger to jab at the screen (while covering portions of it with the rest of your hand) will still never be as accurate/precise as a mouse, but it sure as hell is a lot more portable that's for sure

Besides how can I be mad at them when they saved the Bayonetta franchise?

Saved it? PS3 and XBox owners (soon to be XBone and PS4 owners) are still patiently awaiting news for their beloved Bayonetta sequel....


...ohhhh wait, you're talking about the upcoming Bayonetta 2 that is exclusive to Wii U? Ah yes...yes that thing...I'm sure Bayonetta fans (i.e. PS3/XBox owners, soon to be PS4/XBone owners) will be eternally grateful that their franchise was saved. Phew.


(Don't take me too seriously btw, I'm aware Bayonetta was basically finished as far as Platinum were concerned and even a sequel exclusive to a specific brand of toaster is technically better than no sequel at all )

 

[KazeAizen]

Agreed, the Wii U's touchscreen is leaps and bounds better suited for RTS than anything else at the moment (and even in the face of next gen). Having use your finger to jab at the screen (while covering portions of it with the rest of your hand) will still never be as accurate/precise as a mouse, but it sure as hell is a lot more portable that's for sure
-----------------
Saved it? PS3 and XBox owners (soon to be XBone and PS4 owners) are still patiently awaiting news for their beloved Bayonetta sequel....


...ohhhh wait, you're talking about the upcoming Bayonetta 2 that is exclusive to Wii U? Ah yes...yes that thing...I'm sure Bayonetta fans (i.e. PS3/XBox owners, soon to be PS4/XBone owners) will be eternally grateful that their franchise was saved. Phew.


(Don't take me too seriously btw, I'm aware Bayonetta was basically finished as far as Platinum were concerned and even a sequel exclusive to a specific brand of toaster is technically better than no sequel at all )

lol for a second there I was about to take you seriously . I've never really been one for PC gaming. Hell the only PC exclusive I really play is League so all that razzle dazzle with the mouse and hot keys will always elude me. As long as I have my QEWR combo for Katarina I will be fine. Who's to say though that people couldn't be as precise with a stylus or something for that, or hell I know you can hook 2 gamepads up to it maybe even make a local co-op RTS with the two players having two different roles managing the same army. I don't know just spit balling now.

Yeah I know it kind of sucks for those owners but its really not like its anything new. Hardcore Final Fantasy peeps had to make that jump back in the SNES and PS1 days. Its just good business though isn't it? A brand new IP with a cult following and potential to grow into a multi million dollar franchise and Nintendo was the one with the balls to risk that and corner that niche. See a need fill a need and all that crap. I would hate to see Bayonetta die after one game. It would be a cult classic but a cult classic that deserved so much more than it got. I think she's actually probably my favorite video game character of all time. Definitely favorite female and top 3 for sure. Right behind a blue robot that has been thrown to the junk yard and a blue hedgehog who has finally got his mojo back. (albeit I liked his "shitty" games but whatevs) New IPs are new IPs and they need to stick around longer than just one game.

 

[Saelune]

Last to follow trends? It was the Wii that PSMove and Kinect copied. And I dont see any Sony or Microsoft systems with glassesless 3D. Nintendo are the innovators, and its Sony and Microsoft who are holding gaming back by being either safe or controlling. Nintendo makes mistakes, but doesnt flip out about it. Microsoft made a big mistake with Xbox One, and though they fixed it, they acted like we were at fault for their error. Nintendo didnt yell at us when Virtual Boy tanked.

 

[Something Amyss]

snip

Obviously none of the companies have claimed to have invented the internet because obviously Al Gore invented it! XD
...I wonder how many people will actually get that old joke...>.>
...I'll let myself out.

Well, I'm old enough to get it, so there's one.

And from what I've seen of conservatives on the web, Fox News is still harping on it.

 

[Asuka Soryu]

Because this industry is on such a progressive speed towards the future.

3D, VR! And sequels to sequels to sequels to sequels! This world is change!

 

[StriderShinryu]

Not at all. Nintendo has put itself in the position where it's essentially a niche product amongst gamers. Progress is happening all around the industry, both in large scale games as well as independent games, and everything in between. You could make an argument that Nintendo is holding itself back by being stuck in a very Japanese circa 20+ years ago mindset, but they certainly aren't holding anyone else back.

 

[Asuka Soryu]

You know what's funny though is that I posted a topic recently related to the RTS genre and the Wii U Gamepad. With that interface Nintendo inadvertently made the best possible console device for an RTS. The way I figured this out is that I basically spent a night and tried mapping the League of Legends control scheme to a console and found no better console suited for it. I don't think we are going for necessity anymore when it comes to game controls. I think that we are at the point that we and by we I mean Nintendo and kind of Microsoft are pioneering new ways to enjoy and play games. In that process they might even create something that used to only work for the PC like I believe Nintendo has done with the Gamepad. As much as people rake modern gaming over the coals and it seems NIntendo especially I think with generation 7 gone and generation 8 here as of the Wii U's launch we have reached that sweet spot of what we know works but now lets play around with other ideas. Hell I think Nintendo realized that in gen 6. We will always have our traditional control inputs but now is the time that when something new pops up we don't run away or condemn but try and embrace it. See if we can make it work and see what new stories or styles of gameplay we can make. Ok done now.

Also that last bit is from my mind as an aspiring game designer. Also note I am a bit of a Nintendo fanboy though I don't hate MS or Sony. In fact I have their consoles. I just think Nintendo has garnered waaaaaaaaayyyyyyy to much unfair hatred among "core" gamers.

Agreed, the Wii U's touchscreen is leaps and bounds better suited for RTS than anything else at the moment (and even in the face of next gen). Having use your finger to jab at the screen (while covering portions of it with the rest of your hand) will still never be as accurate/precise as a mouse, but it sure as hell is a lot more portable that's for sure

Besides how can I be mad at them when they saved the Bayonetta franchise?

Saved it? PS3 and XBox owners (soon to be XBone and PS4 owners) are still patiently awaiting news for their beloved Bayonetta sequel....


...ohhhh wait, you're talking about the upcoming Bayonetta 2 that is exclusive to Wii U? Ah yes...yes that thing...I'm sure Bayonetta fans (i.e. PS3/XBox owners, soon to be PS4/XBone owners) will be eternally grateful that their franchise was saved. Phew.


(Don't take me too seriously btw, I'm aware Bayonetta was basically finished as far as Platinum were concerned and even a sequel exclusive to a specific brand of toaster is technically better than no sequel at all )

Yeah, they should've just let it die so no one could play it.

It still counts as saving it, yes it's exclusive, but it still exists. That means that in the future when the Wii U is a cheapo thing, Bayonetta fans who spent their money elsewhere can pick up a cheapo Wii U and get Bayonetta 2 cheap, rather then settle for never playing the game ever.

 

[DeimosMasque]

Saved it? PS3 and XBox owners (soon to be XBone and PS4 owners) are still patiently awaiting news for their beloved Bayonetta sequel....


...ohhhh wait, you're talking about the upcoming Bayonetta 2 that is exclusive to Wii U? Ah yes...yes that thing...I'm sure Bayonetta fans (i.e. PS3/XBox owners, soon to be PS4/XBone owners) will be eternally grateful that their franchise was saved. Phew.


(Don't take me too seriously btw, I'm aware Bayonetta was basically finished as far as Platinum were concerned and even a sequel exclusive to a specific brand of toaster is technically better than no sequel at all )

I actually am one of those Bayonetta fans who played the game on the Xbox. Heck I have the replica gun from the series and my lady is planning on cosplaying as Bayonetta soonish. And as someone who every three months would type "Bayonetta Sequel" into google hoping to hear SOMETHING in regards to that, I was disheartened when I read that Sega had basically swept it under the rug and said "Nothing to See Here"

When I heard it was going to be a Wii U exclusive I was overjoyed. It was getting a sequel and it was going to survive. I didn't care that I didn't have a Wii U yet, I just checked it as a reason to get one. Just like someone who wanted to play any other exclusive on any other system would do. I don't see why people get so up in arms about it. If I wanted to play Last of Us I need to get a PS3, if I wanted to play Gears of War I need an Xbox. If I want to play Bayonetta 2 I need a Wii U. It's all the same to me.

 

[Roxas1359]

I actually am one of those Bayonetta fans who played the game on the Xbox. Heck I have the replica gun from the series and my lady is planning on cosplaying as Bayonetta soonish. And as someone who every three months would type "Bayonetta Sequel" into google hoping to hear SOMETHING in regards to that, I was disheartened when I read that Sega had basically swept it under the rug and said "Nothing to See Here"

Unfortunately in SEGA's case though you have to look at it through their point of view. Here they had a contract with Platinum for 5 games, and out of them all Bayonetta was the most successful, but they still ended up losing money on it and at the time SEGA was kinda iffy on financing. So from a business standpoint you can see why SEGA didn't instantly jump on board the prospect of a sequel. Nintendo stepped in because they needed a hardcore game for the Wii U, so it will have it. Although the Platinum curse is still there as Wonderful 101 has unfortunately bombed in Japan and Europe (it's been two weeks, you can't say it hasn't bombed). Hopefully the curse won't be the same for Bayonetta 2, but I still don't think it's gonna be the system seller that Nintendo really needs right now.

But a lot of the time people actually do blame SEGA for not funding the sequel, but in reality can you blame them when they didn't really have the money per say?

 

[DeimosMasque]

But a lot of the time people actually do blame SEGA for not funding the sequel, but in reality can you blame them when they didn't really have the money per say?

I honestly don't blame SEGA at all, they made the right call from a business standpoint. It was just unfortunate that they let Platinum talk about the ideas for the sequel to just sort of cancel it without even a press release or anything. Just "Let's hope no one notices."

 

[McMarbles]

Nintendo isn't holding the industry back at all. It's charging full-steam ahead... right off a cliff.