Is the Insanity Plea a legitimate defense?

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

People seem to think being locked in a high security psych ward is somehow better than being put in prison. Seeing as how there are real nutjobs in psych wards (I've been committed before and even in the non-prison versions there are some scary ass people) I wouldn't call it a cakewalk. Plus they may keep him heavily sedated or straightjacketed if he becomes violent or disruptive so, thats not much of a life. Some people, most people, would actually prefer prison.

 

[Muspelheim]

And that excludes him from being insane because...?

Criminal insanity is, in its broadest definition, the inability to distinguish right from wrong. You don't have to think that you're Richard the III being aided by the ghost of John Paul II to be legally insane.

Misguided? They've got a 20% relapse rate when it comes to released prisoners (meaning 20% end up back in jail after their release). The US has around a 60% relapse rate. And if someone manages to get the evidence tested using modern tech, we might be discovering that the state of Texas just executed an innocent man.

There are a lot of remorseless psychopathic murderers who don't know right from wrong. Doesn't exclude them. ABB had massive delusions of grandeur, but it remains that he knew what he was doing, especially in the act of bombing and killing. Society is just better off without monsters who go around mass murdering others, sane or not. ABB can never be rehabilitated into society. Executed murderers have a 0% relapse rate.

Norway had a lower crime rate in the first place. It's a generally more cohesive society. So maybe they can afford to go soft on crime.

Also you're not saying that there's the slightest chance ABB could be innocent, are you?

While I agree in a way, that it'd be more merciful for everyone, including Breivik himself to execute him, I am alright with that it won't happen. He is a madman, and it's a moral choice that dates far back to the middle ages if I remember correctly to not kill a madman. It's the law that's been agreed upon, and that is what will happen.

 

[sombod]

as a person that live in norway, and ive been living in norway all my life, i can promise you that being declared insane and put in a mental institution is far worse.

in the mental institution, nothing of what you say will be even thought upon, every move, every thought u put forward can and Will be dismissed as ''crazyness''

this also works great because of the ''manifesto'' he put out. clearly, the man is brilliantly gifted when it comes to intellect, he is not a stupid gunman. but he is delusional.


id like for him burn tho, really slowly. that fucker killed my friends

EDIT: by the way guys, he did not plead himself insane, he says that he is totally sane. also, prison in norway is a fucking awesome thing. u have a computer, a tv, shower(your own) etc. pretty much everything u need other than freedom

 

[peruvianskys]

Norway had a lower crime rate in the first place. It's a generally more cohesive society. So maybe they can afford to go soft on crime.

Also you're not saying that there's the slightest chance ABB could be innocent, are you?

Crime rates have nothing to do with per capita relapse rates. Even if there are ten criminals in Norway and ten thousand in America, if 20% of the Norwegians end up back in jail and 60% of the Americans, it's still a lower recidivism rate. It's really absurd to criticize Norway's prison system; almost everyone in the world agrees that it's one of the best around, and the statistics back it up. That doesn't mean that it could necessarily be imported to America without alteration and have the same results, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a worthwhile system in the country it exists in. I personally don't care where ABB is as long as he's removed from the general population.

 

[Naeo]

The insanity plea is absolutely legitimate, when it can be proven. Sometimes people's brains simply do not work normally and that is absolutely a mitigating factor. But this in no way means we should just let people who successfully argue for the insanity case walk free, because they've still done awful things.

 

[The Unworthy Gentleman]

Here's the options:

1) Put an insane man in a jail where he'll continue being insane and will be a danger to everyone around him. That is, until he is eventually released.

2) Put an insane man in a loony bin where he'll be treated and kept in a safe place away from danger and will be unable to cause any more damage until he either recovers or dies.

Which one sounds like he better fucking option? It's naive to think that you can put insane people in with other criminals and expect the system to work. People need to stop thinking you can deny criminals help, it's idiotic to say the least.

 

[Torrasque]

As with most things, movies embellish the "my client is insane" plea to ridiculous proportions. IRL, the "my client is bat shit crazy" is a legitimate plea due to the fact that they hire professional psychologists and medical experts to determine whether the person is loony or not.
All that aside, it is probably better for the guy to be in a psychiatric ward for the rest of his life than a jail for however long he'd be there. Very few countries have a legal system that is fair and makes sense, so I'd wager that as far as quarantining this nut job from the general public goes, the psych ward is a better place to put him.

 

[NLS]

This doesn't mean he got a "get out of jail" free ticket, they'll have to evaluate if he's healthy enough to get out every 3 years. In addition to this, they have to verify if he's a danger to our society or not, so even if he once were to be "treated" he could still be considered a danger, and just kept inside for a long time. Also, it's not as if he said "I'm sick lolz, I can't go to prison". They had 2 independent professionals write a 240 page report on him, so it's quite legit and not just a quick way to get away.

 

[Kiwilove]

Damn it, that's nicer than my dorm room.
OT. The guy is clearly insane. I doubt he can be rehabilitated. A psych hospital is probably better.

 

[Something Amyss]

As with most things, movies embellish the "my client is insane" plea to ridiculous proportions.

Not to mention, they tend to take the chances of a jury going for it to ridiculous ends.

At least, with regard to the US legal system. We're pretty biased against crazies, so saying "I'm crazy" is not a get-out-of-jail-free card, even if true. Hell, it's not even a "get into a mental ward instead of jail" card.

 

[Richard Keohane]

I am training to enter this field (in the United States), so I could TLR about this for hours. I'll try to give you a short list of why Not Guilty By Reason of Mental Disease or Defect is a good thing.

1) Here in America, if you're found guilty of a crime it's because you're responsible for your actions. When you find someone not guilty through an insanity plea, they are admitting that they committed the crime, but either could not control their actions or did not have the mental capacity to understand their actions at the time of the offense. They can't be held responsible for what they did, much like a child who breaks something because they just didn't know any better.

2) If that smells like bullshit to you, it also probably smells like bullshit to the judge and/or jury, which is why the vast majority of insanity defenses fail. A successful insanity defense happens so rarely because the disability has to be well documented. So when a defense lawyer does try this as an attempt to avoid a legitimate guilty verdict, it's usually painfully obvious to everyone that the accused was responsible.

3) Even if you were 100% sure that your lawyer was going to "get you off the hook" with an insanity plea, you should FIRE HIM IMMEDIATELY, BECAUSE YOU WOULD SPEND A MUCH LONGER PERIOD OF TIME COMMITTED IN TREATMENT THAN IN YOU WOULD IN PRISON. If your lawyer suggests an insanity defense, they either think you are legitimately crazy, they don't know what the hell they're doing, or they just want to put another notch on their "Not Guilty" belt.

If anything, it's TOO difficult in America to get mentally retarded, psychotropically medicated, and schizophrenic offenders to be found not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect.

Of course, I don't know anything about this guy, or his country's legal system.

 

[lacktheknack]

it's not enough, that most of the prisons in the nordic countries are like a vacation resort, but now they let THAT guy go free.


NOW THAT IS A LOAD OF BULL

"Go free"

...

What people think mental institutions look like:

http://villamedcenter.com/images/main01.jpg

What they actually look like:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4125/5140349947_f442316ecb.jpg

What's wrong with him being locked up HERE instead of in the Norwegian criminal rehabilitation centers?

 

[Airsoftslayer93]

You realise a psyche ward isnt much better than a jail

 

[KingofallCosmos]

Just liked to add that recently a successful baseball player got stabbed to death by his younger brother, also a great player. He was and is still suffering from psychosis. Since the younger brother was my sisters classmate this was pretty close to home.

When I heard about it I just felt sad. Maybe especially for the younger brother. He doesn't yet realize what he's done.

I think what I'm trying to say is that even though it might be possible to use it as an "easy" way out it should never be taken lightly.

 

[Robert Ewing]

It's not a defense at all. Even if somebody is insane, they should still be placed into some sort of institution, because fact is, they are a serious and obvious danger... Even though Scandinavian prisons are like holiday resorts.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

You are strongly mistaking "Psychiatric Ward for possibly the rest of his life" for "Getting off scot-free".

He is going to be behind lock and key, heavily medicated and very likely personally restrained for the rest of his life.

Seriously, not kidding, the man will spend the rest of his life strapped to a bed for days on end (shitting and pissing himself day in and day out, i need to stress this, when they strap you to a bed, if you need to shit, you shit yourself. He is going to be spending a lot of time shitting and pissing himself.) punctuated by long 'interview' sessions wherein doctors will treat him as though he is a neutered monster trapped under a microscope.

Oh, and because he is clearly pretty fucking violent, he's likely going to be kept 'regulated' on Halperidol or stronger Haldol isn't one of the 'fun' meds. Any time this man has not under that microscope or literally strapped to a bed, he is basically going to be sitting in a corner, drooling at a wall.

His sentence is somewhat analogous to lifelong solitary confinement, except that he's going to be under the direct, physical care of probably like a half-dozen or more very large orderlies who probably don't particularly like him even a little bit. Even a little. (because btw each and every one of them knows exactly who he is. exactly who he is)

He has not gotten away with shit.

He is, however, clearly out of his fucking mind.

It is generally not a good idea to put clearly fucking batshit psychotics into a prison with other people who are, while possibly violent, are not likely to be batshit psychotic.
If you do that, people get killed. Either someone kills him or he kills someone, there is no option C.

Norway has chosen to medicate the brains out of this monster, strap him to a bed and stick him in a box under a microscope.

I feel this was the appropriate choice.

This guy has it down.

By sending him to a psych ward permanently (the best choice, seeing as how he's batshit insane), he is removed form society, and we will be able to try to figure out WHAT drove him batshit insane, and maybe prevent other people from going batshit insane in the same way.

It's also going to be a very terribly existence for him too. Bonus points.

 

[dickywebster]

Yes, if hes insane and a danger to people, then sending him somewhere that wont let him out unless hes cured is better than prison where he might get out even if he isnt cured.

 

[James Crook]

Well, if it's like Shutter Island's Psychiatry Wards, I'd be definitely pleased.

 

[Vakz]

Just some info for anyone who don't actually read newspapers: Brevik is NOT pleading insanity himself. In fact, he strongly denies being mentally ill. The ones who are calling him insane are two doctors who have examined him at the court's request.

 

[Sutter Cane]

Difficult to say the least, should a person who is unable to control themselves during a psychotic episode be held for their actions?

Personally, no, up to a point.

See, the difference here is that he might of been delusional at times, but making a carbomb and planning out an attack like this one takes time, months maybe.

You cant argue that during this entire time he didn't have a lapse of insanity and came to his senses.

Even so, there should of been warning signs that others could of picked up on. Family, close friends, people should of been able to find something that told them that something was wrong.

I think people do have a legitimate claim of innocence due to insanity, but up to a point some responsibility should be taken by the defendant.


Honestly, he could be more of a problem if put into prison without psychiatric help, so life in a ward or asylum would be a better choice.

Still though, the survivors and family members of the victims should receive more closure than "we will put him in a padded room for the rest of his life".

the way you put that, you make it seem like the criminal justice system should be more about making the victims feel better rather than about rehabilitating criminals or simply keeping dangerous people where they can't do any harm. That kind of attitude worries me.