Is this negative "nice guy" stereotype actually a thing?

JoJo

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cikame said:
I identify myself as being the "nice guy", the male in the room with usually the most manners and decency, don't drink, don't smoke, i'm interested in being polite to women.

History has taught me women would rather give jobless egotistical idiots lots of children than talk to me, i wouldn't say the nice guy is a stereotype because i'm living it, i have no interest in lowering myself to get laid.
I'm not sure how not smoking or drinking comes into being a nice guy, those are lifestyle choices that don't really affect anyone-else. I don't know you and I won't make assumptions in your particular case, but generally I doubt that women (or men for that matter) choose jerks over nicer people, more likely they're picking people who fulfil other criteria. Maybe they want someone who'll make them laugh, maybe they want someone who shares their hobbies, maybe they just want someone with a big salary they can spend? Just being nice and polite is all well and good but usually people are looking for something more than that in their romantic partners.
 

Mutie

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DANGER- MUST SILENCE said:
Sounds like you need to get some new friends. Yes, there are people out there who think that any time a friend is also attracted to them that the friendship was a false ploy from the get-go. You can demonstrate the fact that you aren't a "Nice Guy" by accepting the rejection with grace and dignity and respect. If people still can't tell the difference, well, they probably weren't really worth your time and energy in the first place. Best to just move on with your life. Which means not dwelling in self-pity on your lack of a sex life. Just some advice from a guy who has been there.
Cheers dude, that made my day. What makes me sad though is I really feel like the classical stereotype as I recently lost a close friend due to this -.- I'm certain that she thinks I was only hanging out with her for sex, likely compounded by the fact that I can no longer talk to her... But she broke my heart. Either way, there is no way to leave a situation such as that as anything more than the bad guy.
 

Mutie

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Sansha said:
You have five minutes to let a girl know you're romantically/sexually attracted to her. Make your intentions and desires clear, and go from there.

You can't be 'just friends' for a long time. You can't waste time when it comes to wooing women - it really is like fishing. You gotta use the right bait, and haul her in before someone else does.

Source: ten years of dating experience.
Hmmm... I think you fail to see my issue >.< I find it difficult to find someone attractive without knowing them as a person. An odd trait, but one that has saved me from the rather depraved culture we live in for the mot part... Bare in mind, this has only ever happened to me twice. And the first time it was fully mutual. The other times I either clicked with a lass initial or was in a period of celibacy.
 

Compatriot Block

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The trouble with topics like this is that the people who truly need to reevaluate their attitudes don't ever see themselves as part of the creepy group. They see themselves as a person of"high standards" living amongst asshole cavemen and a seemingly infinite number of women who refuse to date anyone other than those cavemen. They never consider that the problem might lie with themselves, and so no improvement can ever be made.
 

softclocks

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wulf3n said:
I don't buy it. Maybe if being nice actually worked I could see it being a "tactic" but when has just being "nice" ever gotten anyone laid.

To me the much more likely situation is that this whole "nice guy" phenomena is nothing more than the socially inept doing the only thing they know how to show someone they care, and then overreact when the inevitably get rejected, lashing out because rejection hurts, doubly so when you've built the person up to be something more than they are.
This perfectly sums up the experiences I've had with friends who suffer from the "nice guy" syndrome.

People who lack social/relational experience and behave in the only way they know how, politely.

People in this thread are responding like its a crime to be inexperienced, or like there's some sort of malice behind timid politeness.
 

KisaiTenshi

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JoJo said:
cikame said:
I identify myself as being the "nice guy", the male in the room with usually the most manners and decency, don't drink, don't smoke, i'm interested in being polite to women.

History has taught me women would rather give jobless egotistical idiots lots of children than talk to me, i wouldn't say the nice guy is a stereotype because i'm living it, i have no interest in lowering myself to get laid.
I'm not sure how not smoking or drinking comes into being a nice guy, those are lifestyle choices that don't really affect anyone-else. I don't know you and I won't make assumptions in your particular case, but generally I doubt that women (or men for that matter) choose jerks over nicer people, more likely they're picking people who fulfil other criteria. Maybe they want someone who'll make them laugh, maybe they want someone who shares their hobbies, maybe they just want someone with a big salary they can spend? Just being nice and polite is all well and good but usually people are looking for something more than that in their romantic partners.

Consider high school a testing ground, not a place for relationships to happen. Yes you can date people in high school, but you'll always regret most of it. It's like finishing the appetizer and being too full for the main course.
When I was in high school there were people who liked me, and there was one person I liked. I had no problems hanging out with the ones who liked me, but I didn't like the personality of their one friend in common who was a bad influence on them. Meanwhile the one person I liked was also engaging in bad behaviors, and I felt that was the best reason not to pursue them.

Once you get to actually meet people outside your social circle, let alone any other ethnicity, you will notice that high school was probably the worst relationship pool there was, as it didn't expose you to anything you didn't already know or believe in.

The entire "nice guy" problem comes from having a very narrow set of experiences and expectations. If you grew up in an area where partying and drinking was where everyone hooked up, then yes you probably are going to have to compete with a lot of jerks, both men and women for relationships (and if you're not comfortable in that peer environment by drinking with them, you are the one with the problem.) Not merely "nice." It would benefit you to actually find other social circles that fit your hobbies. Move to the big city and discover all sorts of things, or even move out of state, or live in another country for a while. Find some place that is comfortable to live in, and then find a relationship.
 

wulf3n

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Shanicus said:
This whole topic reaks of people using absolutes to describe something that has a variety of appearances.

See, I think there's more than 1 type of 'nice guy' - there's the socially awkward or inept nice guy who genuine, truly doesn't know any better (often teenagers or people who haven't had any dates), and then there's the 'nice guy' assholes, who are so self-absorbed and have such low opinion of women that they truly believe being nice should somehow reward them sex when in reality it's just the base standard at which to judge everyone.

The former is understandable - social awkwardness coupled with inexperience can be a pretty potent 1-2 combo, mainly since these kinds of people (speaking from experience, mind you) can't really pick up signs that they're feelings are being reciprocated, rejected or just not aware; likewise they can't really get what is or isn't a 'right' to try and attract romantic attention. The socially awkward 'nice guy' tends to get better as they age, either via experience or just talking to people about how this thing called 'romance' actually works.

The asshole 'nice guy', on the other hand... they just refuse to get it. Everything they're doing is right, if the woman/man in question doesn't pick it up or reciprocate then it's them that's wrong, not the 'nice guy'. This extends to actual relationships as well, where the 'nice guy' turns out to be an emotionally manipulative and abuse asshole who can't see past themselves in relation to EVERYTHING - sex, outings, friends, family, work... it's all gotta fit to THEM and not a balance between them and the partner. The asshole 'Nice guy' is easy to spot if you know what you're looking for though, as they react with hostility, violence or a general over-reaction (burst into tears, temper tantrum, etc.) when rejected, wheras the socially awkward 'nice guy' will react with.. well, normal reactions to rejection (downcast but accepting).

Experience: Was a socially awkward 'nice guy' for a while, I got better. Had a friend date a stereotypical asshole 'nice guy', she ended up going to Therapy due to the sheer amount of emotional abuse and manipulations he did during their relationship.
The problem I have with that description of the term is that it basically describes every asshole in existence, which is also the problem with the "why do woman only like jerks" because it's obvious they weren't being jerks in the beginning. So essentially the "nice guy" as you described is just a euphemism for asshole i.e. pointless. To me the only usefulness of the term is to describe the person who's sole repertoire of courting techniques is being nice.

Charli said:
If you think I literally smacked them on the head and didn't think that was a euphemism for a stern talking to, you're lacking the same grace.
I do, hence why I'm here.

Charli said:
I wouldn't just smack someone and not explain why EITHER. Come on, can you actually picture that in your head. Like the guy wouldn't even ask me why I smacked them? Just...wham and a walk off? ...Really?
I don't know the real you, so anything is possible.

Charli said:
Also I shouldn't have to explain this to them, I'm not their mother. I am their friend. Friendship is the thing that gets undermined by this disgraceful approach to forging relations (Which romance is not the be all, end all of).
And I'm disturbed by the number of times I've come across it and question why It should be my job to teach why this inappropriate behaviour to fully grown adults.
You don't have to, but it's generally considered "nice" to help those who have difficulty with social etiquette, because it doesn't come as easy to some as it does to others.
 

JoJo

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KisaiTenshi said:
JoJo said:
cikame said:
I identify myself as being the "nice guy", the male in the room with usually the most manners and decency, don't drink, don't smoke, i'm interested in being polite to women.

History has taught me women would rather give jobless egotistical idiots lots of children than talk to me, i wouldn't say the nice guy is a stereotype because i'm living it, i have no interest in lowering myself to get laid.
I'm not sure how not smoking or drinking comes into being a nice guy, those are lifestyle choices that don't really affect anyone-else. I don't know you and I won't make assumptions in your particular case, but generally I doubt that women (or men for that matter) choose jerks over nicer people, more likely they're picking people who fulfil other criteria. Maybe they want someone who'll make them laugh, maybe they want someone who shares their hobbies, maybe they just want someone with a big salary they can spend? Just being nice and polite is all well and good but usually people are looking for something more than that in their romantic partners.

Consider high school a testing ground, not a place for relationships to happen. Yes you can date people in high school, but you'll always regret most of it. It's like finishing the appetizer and being too full for the main course.
When I was in high school there were people who liked me, and there was one person I liked. I had no problems hanging out with the ones who liked me, but I didn't like the personality of their one friend in common who was a bad influence on them. Meanwhile the one person I liked was also engaging in bad behaviors, and I felt that was the best reason not to pursue them.

Once you get to actually meet people outside your social circle, let alone any other ethnicity, you will notice that high school was probably the worst relationship pool there was, as it didn't expose you to anything you didn't already know or believe in.

The entire "nice guy" problem comes from having a very narrow set of experiences and expectations. If you grew up in an area where partying and drinking was where everyone hooked up, then yes you probably are going to have to compete with a lot of jerks, both men and women for relationships (and if you're not comfortable in that peer environment by drinking with them, you are the one with the problem.) Not merely "nice." It would benefit you to actually find other social circles that fit your hobbies. Move to the big city and discover all sorts of things, or even move out of state, or live in another country for a while. Find some place that is comfortable to live in, and then find a relationship.
Eh, okay. Good advice but I'm not quite sure why you quoted me with it, I left high school years ago and never suffered from the 'nice guy' problem in my relationships, then or now. I agree with your change of scene advice, both going to university and living in the States for a while gave me a whole of lot of experience with different people, can't recommend trying somewhere new for a while strongly enough.
 

Blitsie

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eatenbyagrue said:
I read an article on Cracked.com a few years back that talks about why the whole "nice guy" thing doesn't work. The long and short of it is that "nice" is something you are expected to be: it's not particularly difficult, or requires too much effort. Especially when courting a girl, who has hundreds of guys being nice to her every day, except some of them have something extra to offer: one guy is nice, but he also has a PhD and teaches high-level math at the university, or this other guy is nice, but can bench press his own weight and would look nice with his arm draped around her. Basically, saying "I'm a nice guy" is the baseline. It's the bare minimum of what's expected if you want to exist in a civilized world.
Fantastic article [http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-truths-that-will-make-you-better-person/] from Wong by the way, was a pretty bitter pill to swallow at first but the guy brings up some very valid points that ultimately helped quite a bit. Highly recommend reading it if anyone here hasn't yet.

Welp, anyway, most of what I'd say was already mentioned so I can't add much. Its definitely grown to be quite the ambiguous term though, you get those genuinely nice guys who I guess really just wants to a decent relationship, you get those who use it to (unsuccessfully) gain sex and of course say every bad thing they can about women on the internet after being rejected, and its also been quite the useful way to start up a rejection ("you're a nice guy but..."). Anything else I may have missed?

And yeah, that's me saying water is wet. Out.
 

Shock and Awe

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TheEvilGenius said:
Shock and Awe said:
You want to get girls? Its really not that difficult. Be nice, treat them like people, and don't wait until they are dating someone to ask them out.
Wait, I thought that approach was the very reason we were having this discussion to begin with.
Well two things. Firstly most of the "nice guys" fail on the two latter things in my three prong list. They tend to think of women more as reactive objects then people in some ways due to their massive confusion over the fact that doing the first item doesn't bag them the girl. That and most "nice guys" don't actually nut up to asking girls out 90% of the time.

Secondly, the list is oversimplified in that it leaves out the crucial factor of being an interesting person beyond being nice. Something most "nice guys" fail miserably at.
 

KisaiTenshi

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JoJo said:
Eh, okay. Good advice but I'm not quite sure why you quoted me with it, I left high school years ago and never suffered from the 'nice guy' problem in my relationships, then or now. I agree with your change of scene advice, both going to university and living in the States for a while gave me a whole of lot of experience with different people, can't recommend trying somewhere new for a while strongly enough.
Sorry, when I quote things, I usually try to leave in the chain of comments if it's already been replied to, but it seems like on The Escapist this isn't necessary or desired.
 

Zeras

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I'm 26, single, have a job, probably wouldn't be considered attractive, and have friends who are more confidant than I am; most of them are married/engaged by this point! That's okay, a relationship hasn't ever been a strong motivator for me, and I kinda pushed someone away when I could've gotten my courage together and acted on this mutual attraction.
 

beastro

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Nice Guy is a euphemism these days for weak men who mistake their passive nature as being extra nice and polite and thus something women should be going mad for.

Sad thing is it doesn't take much to be what they claim to be, they just have to more assertive and their own person, but they'd rather shrink from conflict and be manipulative.
 

Isra

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Zhukov said:
The Nice Guy stereotype refers to guys who are under the impression that being generally polite and civil towards women is some kind of huge point in their favour rather than merely a baseline standard for being a generally okay person.

Yes, they exist. They can be found in the various echo chambers of the internet asking one another why, in spite of their undeniable and nondescript niceness, they are still getting less sex than guys with looks, charisma, self-confident, huge penises, socially outgoing natures, conversational skills, interesting vocations, charming senses of humour and/or finely honed cunnilingus techniques.
Oh god I have one of those on Facebook. I keep him around just for entertainment value.
He bitches constantly about how women never show him any interest even though he's such a nice guy. Oh he holds the fucking door open and he pulls out the chair, why was there no pussy?! He then generally expands on this with a bunch of misogyny to his own ignorance, such as posting pictures about what he thinks the "standard" of female figure should be, and goes on to talk about women as though they are an unfathomable alien species. But don't get the wrong idea or anything, he will assure you that he is a "feminist". And get this - he wears a fucking black suit and a fedora.

Article is right. This guy does exist.
 

Callate

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Okay, so... Married, here. Nothing to prove. Not looking. Bear that in mind in what I'm about to say.

I do not doubt that the stereotypical "nice guy" who is code for "thinking that being 'nice' ought to get you laid" actually exists. To indulge in further stereotyping, men are often mechanical thinkers; the whole "if 'x', then 'y', if not 'y', why not" thing is very much in a lot of men's wheelhouse, so to speak.

That said, I think the whole "nice guys are really jerks just acting nice trying to get laid" gets thrown about, and the sentiments put in the mouths of people complaining about being overlooked, way too often.

Some men are genuinely nice, and that doesn't deprive them of the right to be frustrated. Some men are hoping for something more than just sex, and they don't deserve to be turned into leering wolves by others' supposition.

And... And here's where someone is probably going to want to hand me my head... A lot of these "nice guys" aren't frustrated because their bottom-rung "niceness" isn't getting them in the door with the guy who's nice and good looking and confident and rich, etc.

They're frustrated because while they're nice, they're watching the object of their affections sigh after some boorish prick who treats them like dirt.

Not even necessarily a well-employed, immaculately groomed, rogueishly good-looking boorish prick, mind you. More like the kind of guy who forgets his wallet every time they go out, showers twice a month, cheats on her behind her back, and never calls back.

The rules of attraction aren't simple, mechanical things. And they don't play fair. If you throw this kind of accusation at a "nice guy" who's been someone's shoulder to cry on when one of "those" guys acted according to type and shook his fists at the sky because he'd never treat her like that, frankly, you're not some knowing sage or righteous scold. You're just indulging in a stereotype that allows you to feel better about your own crass behavior.

I am the child of two second marriages. I heard about my mother's disaster of a first husband, so awful in his behavior that the Catholic Church granted her an incredibly rare annulment. I have heard all about the first man one of my sisters seriously dated, and the stories of the one my elder sister did. I was friends with one of the men my wife was with before me, and charming though he may have been, he was also that "boorish prick" in spades. And it still haunts me a little that I can chart the disintegration of one of my own relationships from the moment I told my girlfriend that I loved her (a sentiment she enthusiastically returned at the time) and stopped neglecting her, keeping her at arm's length.

To be blunt, young women as a whole are not fonts of astoundingly good judgement when it comes to relationships. No more than young men, natch. But for all our enlightenment, we're still prone to assume women with bad judgement are victims and men with bad judgement are predators.

It may well be that society encourages many young women to have such crappy self-esteem that someone showing them attention while simultaneously treating them like crap (as they expect) increases the perceived worth of the person treating them so, making them that much more attractive. And powers preserve us, I think most of us get over this kind of thing as we become more self-assured in our own skin.

So if you take something away from this other than an immediate need to hit reply to tell me I'm a sexist jerk, please just consider the possibility that not every unhappy "nice guy" fits neatly into this narrative. If nothing else, sending the message that trying to be genuinely nice is going to make you the target of antagonism and suspicion is a narrative that's going to screw over everyone in the end.
 

lee1287

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just be nice to everyone. seriously, don't do it to try to get a girl, the world needs nice people. If a girl doesn't like you for being nice, why would you want to even be associated with her? have some standards man!
 
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beastro said:
Nice Guy is a euphemism these days for weak men who mistake their passive nature as being extra nice and polite and thus something women should be going mad for.

Sad thing is it doesn't take much to be what they claim to be, they just have to more assertive and their own person, but they'd rather shrink from conflict and be manipulative.
I'm fairly sure they'd "rather" be the best versions of themselves, but get in their own way. Ineptitude seems to be the theme amongst young people dabbling in love.

Callate said:
Sorry to snip, but it's long.
My first thought when I started seeing this version of the situation "trending"(for lack of a better word) was that it was an attempt at a re-brand. I think you're right when you say that we give women the benefit of the doubt more often than we do for men, and I saw this as an extension of that behaviour... An attempt to frame the situation so that it wouldn't be the fault of women.

I still half feel that way. Both sides are essentially saying "[insert opposite gender here] is cold and manipulative". Either side could be right or wrong on any given case. So...

Gender roles are really in a weird place.

Icehearted said:
Also sorry to snip this.
I think I love you.