Is this negative "nice guy" stereotype actually a thing?

[beastro]

Nice Guy is a euphemism these days for weak men who mistake their passive nature as being extra nice and polite and thus something women should be going mad for.

Sad thing is it doesn't take much to be what they claim to be, they just have to more assertive and their own person, but they'd rather shrink from conflict and be manipulative.

 

[Isra]

The Nice Guy stereotype refers to guys who are under the impression that being generally polite and civil towards women is some kind of huge point in their favour rather than merely a baseline standard for being a generally okay person.

Yes, they exist. They can be found in the various echo chambers of the internet asking one another why, in spite of their undeniable and nondescript niceness, they are still getting less sex than guys with looks, charisma, self-confident, huge penises, socially outgoing natures, conversational skills, interesting vocations, charming senses of humour and/or finely honed cunnilingus techniques.

Oh god I have one of those on Facebook. I keep him around just for entertainment value.
He bitches constantly about how women never show him any interest even though he's such a nice guy. Oh he holds the fucking door open and he pulls out the chair, why was there no pussy?! He then generally expands on this with a bunch of misogyny to his own ignorance, such as posting pictures about what he thinks the "standard" of female figure should be, and goes on to talk about women as though they are an unfathomable alien species. But don't get the wrong idea or anything, he will assure you that he is a "feminist". And get this - he wears a fucking black suit and a fedora.

Article is right. This guy does exist.

 

[Callate]

Okay, so... Married, here. Nothing to prove. Not looking. Bear that in mind in what I'm about to say.

I do not doubt that the stereotypical "nice guy" who is code for "thinking that being 'nice' ought to get you laid" actually exists. To indulge in further stereotyping, men are often mechanical thinkers; the whole "if 'x', then 'y', if not 'y', why not" thing is very much in a lot of men's wheelhouse, so to speak.

That said, I think the whole "nice guys are really jerks just acting nice trying to get laid" gets thrown about, and the sentiments put in the mouths of people complaining about being overlooked, way too often.

Some men are genuinely nice, and that doesn't deprive them of the right to be frustrated. Some men are hoping for something more than just sex, and they don't deserve to be turned into leering wolves by others' supposition.

And... And here's where someone is probably going to want to hand me my head... A lot of these "nice guys" aren't frustrated because their bottom-rung "niceness" isn't getting them in the door with the guy who's nice and good looking and confident and rich, etc.

They're frustrated because while they're nice, they're watching the object of their affections sigh after some boorish prick who treats them like dirt.

Not even necessarily a well-employed, immaculately groomed, rogueishly good-looking boorish prick, mind you. More like the kind of guy who forgets his wallet every time they go out, showers twice a month, cheats on her behind her back, and never calls back.

The rules of attraction aren't simple, mechanical things. And they don't play fair. If you throw this kind of accusation at a "nice guy" who's been someone's shoulder to cry on when one of "those" guys acted according to type and shook his fists at the sky because he'd never treat her like that, frankly, you're not some knowing sage or righteous scold. You're just indulging in a stereotype that allows you to feel better about your own crass behavior.

I am the child of two second marriages. I heard about my mother's disaster of a first husband, so awful in his behavior that the Catholic Church granted her an incredibly rare annulment. I have heard all about the first man one of my sisters seriously dated, and the stories of the one my elder sister did. I was friends with one of the men my wife was with before me, and charming though he may have been, he was also that "boorish prick" in spades. And it still haunts me a little that I can chart the disintegration of one of my own relationships from the moment I told my girlfriend that I loved her (a sentiment she enthusiastically returned at the time) and stopped neglecting her, keeping her at arm's length.

To be blunt, young women as a whole are not fonts of astoundingly good judgement when it comes to relationships. No more than young men, natch. But for all our enlightenment, we're still prone to assume women with bad judgement are victims and men with bad judgement are predators.

It may well be that society encourages many young women to have such crappy self-esteem that someone showing them attention while simultaneously treating them like crap (as they expect) increases the perceived worth of the person treating them so, making them that much more attractive. And powers preserve us, I think most of us get over this kind of thing as we become more self-assured in our own skin.

So if you take something away from this other than an immediate need to hit reply to tell me I'm a sexist jerk, please just consider the possibility that not every unhappy "nice guy" fits neatly into this narrative. If nothing else, sending the message that trying to be genuinely nice is going to make you the target of antagonism and suspicion is a narrative that's going to screw over everyone in the end.

 

[lee1287]

just be nice to everyone. seriously, don't do it to try to get a girl, the world needs nice people. If a girl doesn't like you for being nice, why would you want to even be associated with her? have some standards man!

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Nice Guy is a euphemism these days for weak men who mistake their passive nature as being extra nice and polite and thus something women should be going mad for.

Sad thing is it doesn't take much to be what they claim to be, they just have to more assertive and their own person, but they'd rather shrink from conflict and be manipulative.

I'm fairly sure they'd "rather" be the best versions of themselves, but get in their own way. Ineptitude seems to be the theme amongst young people dabbling in love.

Sorry to snip, but it's long.

My first thought when I started seeing this version of the situation "trending"(for lack of a better word) was that it was an attempt at a re-brand. I think you're right when you say that we give women the benefit of the doubt more often than we do for men, and I saw this as an extension of that behaviour... An attempt to frame the situation so that it wouldn't be the fault of women.

I still half feel that way. Both sides are essentially saying "[insert opposite gender here] is cold and manipulative". Either side could be right or wrong on any given case. So...

Gender roles are really in a weird place.

Also sorry to snip this.

I think I love you.

 

[sanquin]

The stereotype of guys that are 'nice guys' just to get laid is bogus, imo. Something made up by people that aren't 'nice guys' themselves.

The stereotype of 'nice guys' that complain about girls favouring 'douchebags' over 'nice guys' does happen a lot though. I mean, I do notice a trend that 'nice guys' tend to have more problems finding a girlfriend. At least at younger ages. But I doubt that has much to do with being a 'nice guy', and more with not being outgoing and confident.

 

[TotalerKrieger]

The problem I have with the "abused nice guy" stereotype is that the problems they encounter can apply to women as well as men.
The whole "friend-zone" issue suffered by nice guys is just a common result of chasing after someone who most likely isn't physically attracted to you. Gender really isn't a significant factor, IMO. Looking around a university lecture hall or cafeteria, you can often see less than attractive women fawning over attractive men who look like they would barely give them the time of day.
If you exemplify the characteristics of a "nice guy" and the other party is attracted to you then you are very likely to enter a relationship. If the other party is not attracted to you, then they will most likely only want a platonic relationship, and for many people this is where all the resentment and miscommunication takes place.

It is possible that men are more likely to become friend-zoned due to socialization/culture (in television or film there are so many fat ugly male characters paired up with attractive women) or that men are more likely to have sex with female friends who they aren't all that attracted to because well...many men have very variable standards when it comes to sex.

As young adults, many people have lots of opportunities for sex and/or relationships. Thus, attractive men and women are not usually going to bother getting to know someone if they are not instantly attracted to them. People are self-interested and life is not fair at all. If the really pretty girl has friend-zoned you and you feel emotionally used or whatever, cut ties and find someone else who is more worth your time and energy rather than whining like a child. Men are subject to whatever behavioral programming exists in our genome as much as women, so stop complaining about how all the hot girls in their 20's only date/screw the d-bags who treat them like shit. Additionally, guys who make such claims often only observe the small sub-section of women who draw their attention (ie. the ones they find most attractive). Most women find the d-bag alpha-male types as abhorrent as you do, you just haven't noticed what with being so outraged at the supposed hypocrisy of the female gender.

Lastly, I find many of my "nerdy" male friends and acquaintances have a very warped perception of women's beauty standards. ie. If a woman is not physically perfect in their eyes, she is not worth dating. Many of these guys are not stunning themselves, in fact they are often fat, unkempt or ugly. My suggestion to such men is to lower your standards or work on improving your attractiveness in the unlikely event you meet that perfect match someday. Of course many of these guys do neither, resulting in them turning into bitter little misogynists with a chip on their shoulder.

 

[bunnielovekins]

Okay, so... Married, here. Nothing to prove. Not looking. Bear that in mind in what I'm about to say.

I do not doubt that the stereotypical "nice guy" who is code for "thinking that being 'nice' ought to get you laid" actually exists. To indulge in further stereotyping, men are often mechanical thinkers; the whole "if 'x', then 'y', if not 'y', why not" thing is very much in a lot of men's wheelhouse, so to speak.

That said, I think the whole "nice guys are really jerks just acting nice trying to get laid" gets thrown about, and the sentiments put in the mouths of people complaining about being overlooked, way too often.

Some men are genuinely nice, and that doesn't deprive them of the right to be frustrated. Some men are hoping for something more than just sex, and they don't deserve to be turned into leering wolves by others' supposition.

And... And here's where someone is probably going to want to hand me my head... A lot of these "nice guys" aren't frustrated because their bottom-rung "niceness" isn't getting them in the door with the guy who's nice and good looking and confident and rich, etc.

They're frustrated because while they're nice, they're watching the object of their affections sigh after some boorish prick who treats them like dirt.

Discounting the latter part of the post (not that I disagree), I used to be in this position. This was school, mind you, about 8 years ago, and now I'm moved on with a nice long-term relationship so again no ball in this court. I was shy and awkward and depressed, and presumed my depression came from my loneliness, and my shame at being an 18 year old who'd never had a relationship let alone a proper kiss. I made the mistake of listening to the two worst sources possible: my mother and my (very few) female friends. So, being told that ladies wanted a kind, caring, sensitive gentleman, I figured that by being exactly that (read: how I am anyway) I would sooner or later be met with romantic success.

Of course, I wasn't. The problem was that they were telling me what societal pressures expected them to say (social acceptability bias), as opposed to telling me what women would go for in reality. After a few years I stopped being a gentleman, stopped suppressing my inner depressive douchebag, and funnily enough started a fairly eventful and pretty happy love life. Not that it helped with the whole depression thing.

So, in my opinion "Nice guys" are essentially just young, inexperienced, and devoid of any self esteem. They've been told to be a certain thing, and because they really don't believe in what anyone could see in their own personality, they'll try to be it.
That's not to say there aren't assholes who are simply trying a more passive-aggressive approach, but don't always assume the worst, they might just be immature and inexperienced.

My advice for anyone in the friend zone: let your inner asshole shine through. We all are, at least a bit, so stop being a gentleman and hiding it and act like they aren't women at all, and sooner or later nice things will happen.

 

[Phasmal]

Well I have heard many many girls say how they don't go for looks. ''I just want someone fun who can make me laugh''. Same girls then trail after built men regardless of if they are decent or not. They over look guys who are fun and do make them laugh because they are not muscular and good looking. Maybe you are just honest about it most girls aren't.

Captcha: ''love is blind'' . . . . . apparently not

I don't think most girls are being dishonest.

Just like being nice is a pretty basic standard in behaviour, being attracted to someone is kind of the basic standard for a relationship.

If when I was single you asked me what I wanted from a guy, I would have said I wasn't going for looks, I would just want a guy who liked games as much as I do and wasn't a dick. That describes a lot of guys.
If there were two guys who fit that description and I was only attracted to one of them, I don't think it would be dishonest of me to go out with the one I was attracted to.

Most people mean they're not JUST going for looks, but they're always gonna date someone who they find attractive.

 

[sageoftruth]

Keeping that in mind, there seem to be only two possibilities:

1) Women in general dislike considerate people for some reason. But why? Even if the whole "women like jerks" stereotype applies, that stereotype is aimed at being partners. "creep, avoid" means that even acquainting yourself with such a person would be out of the question, which seems crazy to me.

2) We're not actually talking about considerate people at all, when we say "nice guys". Only, then what are we talking about? Jerks who, on the surface, display some sort of concern for the person they're trying to win over, while really being completely egotistical? Congratulations, that's like half the men on this planet, and from what I've seen during school, girls have no problem with such guys at all(as long as they're good looking, mind). Or does this really not have anything at all to do with being "nice" or not being "nice"?

Neither. From my viewpoint, what's being talked about is how some men expect that showing a woman basic decency should be rewarded with a free pass into her panties- sort of like expecting a trophy for not randomly punching people in the face as you walk down the street. It's one thing to be a good person to others, but entirely another to believe you're owed something for your "effort". It's a misogynistic view that states that women are inherently unworthy of being treated decently and should "put out" from sheer gratitude if a man deigns to do so.

As for the fedora thing, that's plain ol' stereotyping. "Only X would wear Y, so anyone who wears Y is obviously X."

Well said. Reminds me of the time Chris Rock was bashing guys who want to be rewarded for doing things they're "Supposed to do". Loved that one. I suppose it's harder to be decent if you're a certain kind of person, but I wouldn't want to date anyone like that.

Also kudos for the fedora thing. I pretty much divorced a portion of the internet's websites (like cracked or memebase) for propagating such stereotypes (and in-turn making me feel ambivalence for fedora-wearers). It's amazing what extended exposure to it can do to one's perception of the real world.

 

[sageoftruth]

Well I have heard many many girls say how they don't go for looks. ''I just want someone fun who can make me laugh''. Same girls then trail after built men regardless of if they are decent or not. They over look guys who are fun and do make them laugh because they are not muscular and good looking. Maybe you are just honest about it most girls aren't.

Captcha: ''love is blind'' . . . . . apparently not

I don't think most girls are being dishonest.

Just like being nice is a pretty basic standard in behaviour, being attracted to someone is kind of the basic standard for a relationship.

If when I was single you asked me what I wanted from a guy, I would have said I wasn't going for looks, I would just want a guy who liked games as much as I do and wasn't a dick. That describes a lot of guys.
If there were two guys who fit that description and I was only attracted to one of them, I don't think it would be dishonest of me to go out with the one I was attracted to.

Most people mean they're not JUST going for looks, but they're always gonna date someone who they find attractive.

Definitely. People who complain about that stuff need to try and recall the last time they asked an unattractive person out.

 

[Keiichi Morisato]

as someone who really is a "nice guy" this is starting to explain high school a lot? though my motivation isn't to get into a girls pants, i have legitimate concern for my friends, most of whom tend to female, granted i am just trying to be a good friend and i show the same amount of concern to my male friends. the reason i am like the nice guy is because growing up i didn't have friends, i would get bullied a lot, so i would imagine the kind of friend i would want, and try to emulate that imaginary friend, because i didn't want to become like my bullies and i wanted to be there for anyone who was in my situation. i would hate to know that my nice guy attitude is being mistaken as a ploy to get in a girls pants.

 

[Keiichi Morisato]

Well I have heard many many girls say how they don't go for looks. ''I just want someone fun who can make me laugh''. Same girls then trail after built men regardless of if they are decent or not. They over look guys who are fun and do make them laugh because they are not muscular and good looking. Maybe you are just honest about it most girls aren't.

Captcha: ''love is blind'' . . . . . apparently not

I don't think most girls are being dishonest.

Just like being nice is a pretty basic standard in behaviour, being attracted to someone is kind of the basic standard for a relationship.

If when I was single you asked me what I wanted from a guy, I would have said I wasn't going for looks, I would just want a guy who liked games as much as I do and wasn't a dick. That describes a lot of guys.
If there were two guys who fit that description and I was only attracted to one of them, I don't think it would be dishonest of me to go out with the one I was attracted to.

Most people mean they're not JUST going for looks, but they're always gonna date someone who they find attractive.

Definitely. People who complain about that stuff need to try and recall the last time they asked an unattractive person out.

done that, my last tow girlfriends weren't all that attractive, but i was fine with it, because i care about creating an emotional connection rather than a physical one.

 

[Rangerboy87]

I read an article on Cracked.com a few years back that talks about why the whole "nice guy" thing doesn't work. The long and short of it is that "nice" is something you are expected to be: it's not particularly difficult, or requires too much effort. Especially when courting a girl, who has hundreds of guys being nice to her every day, except some of them have something extra to offer: one guy is nice, but he also has a PhD and teaches high-level math at the university, or this other guy is nice, but can bench press his own weight and would look nice with his arm draped around her. Basically, saying "I'm a nice guy" is the baseline. It's the bare minimum of what's expected if you want to exist in a civilized world.

And you hit it right on the nose.

I would describe part of my personality as a nice guy, but not my central characteristic. I am nice in the sense that I try to be gentleman to all women, not just ones I have an interest in. I go beyond that for someone I like (I'm married now, so this is all moot). But I say it's not a central characteristic because I was taught to be that way. My parents would have killed me if they saw me act like a jerk to a woman.

Being nice isn't a perk, it's a requirement. Besides, true nice guys are nice enough to not be pushing to bed a girl. He waits patiently for her to be ready if she's interested.

 

[Phasmal]

done that, my last tow girlfriends weren't all that attractive, but i was fine with it, because i care about creating an emotional connection rather than a physical one.

Were you not attracted to them?

I'm not talking about the standard of attractiveness as set by normal society or anything, I'm talking about them giving you specifically the downstairs green light.

Even if you were NOT attracted to them, which is a little weird- emotional connections and physical connections are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Keiichi Morisato]

done that, my last tow girlfriends weren't all that attractive, but i was fine with it, because i care about creating an emotional connection rather than a physical one.

Were you not attracted to them?

I'm not talking about the standard of attractiveness as set by normal society or anything, I'm talking about them giving you specifically the downstairs green light.

Even if you were NOT attracted to them, which is a little weird- emotional connections and physical connections are not mutually exclusive.

sorry, i assumed by normal societal standards?

 

[Phasmal]

sorry, i assumed by normal societal standards?

Don't worry about it, probably should have clarified better.

Oh, I'm gonna add in a few lines to avoid low content:
I don't much follow societies rules of attractiveness myself and get attracted to a range of people rather than the society approved Ken-doll type.

 

[Vegosiux]

Being nice isn't a perk, it's a requirement. Besides, true nice guys are nice enough to not be pushing to bed a girl. He waits patiently for her to be ready if she's interested.

Well, that's the thing. This "waiting patiently for her to be ready" is actually right in the middle of the problem, because of the assumption that "it has to happen eventually". But then it doesn't, the nice guy gets frustrated and goes on a generic nice guy rant.

I don't think most girls are being dishonest.

On the contrary to that one, I think everyone is being dishonest to a degree, for the sake of "keeping up appearances". As it stands in our society, going "I'll only date people I find attractive" makes you look shallow and crude, no matter your gender, so there's some sugar-coating going on.

And if we're talking about the "instant attraction" kind of thing, then physical attraction is pretty much the only thing you've got going for yourself, since you can't tell a person's hobbies or whether or not they're an asshole by looking at them.

Just like being nice is a pretty basic standard in behaviour, being attracted to someone is kind of the basic standard for a relationship.

If when I was single you asked me what I wanted from a guy, I would have said I wasn't going for looks, I would just want a guy who liked games as much as I do and wasn't a dick. That describes a lot of guys.
If there were two guys who fit that description and I was only attracted to one of them, I don't think it would be dishonest of me to go out with the one I was attracted to.

Most people mean they're not JUST going for looks, but they're always gonna date someone who they find attractive.

The looks will ultimately tip the scales, all other things being equal, no way around that. Luckily there's no accounting for taste, so there's no such thing as an universal measure of "attractiveness" as far as an individual is concerned (I do realize there are physical traits as a society we tend to consider more attractive than others).

But since looks are the first thing you notice, "all other things being equal" doesn't apply because at that moment you simply know nothing about them. Note that I'm including "non-verbal body communication" under looks here, for simplicity's sake (as in, it's something you see with your eyes, without actually exchanging a word).

I'll just, a little tangentially, throw in that I still haven't figured out the difference between "a date" and "two people spending time together"; which I find might be another problem. Guys often tend to think that "a date" is a whole otherworldly experience, some sort of a "ritual".

 

[Mr Fixit]

Well not a whole lot I can add to this...

I'd say most of the people I know think I'm this "Nice Guy" thing because I actually do quite a few things for a woman I know. I've watched her kids, helped her move, bought her things & all that other stuff. I've literally been the shoulder to cry on many times & she has trusted me with secrets that most people would take to the grave, but I honestly have no interest in being anything other than her friend. She's beautiful & generally an amazing woman & we have lots of fun when we are together, but I could not be in a relationship with her. Everytime I tell people I'm doing something for her or hanging out with her I just know that they all think I'm trying to get in her pants. Oh well I really don't care what people think.

I hope that isn't too far off topic.

 

[Phasmal]

I don't think most girls are being dishonest.

On the contrary to that one, I think everyone is being dishonest to a degree, for the sake of "keeping up appearances". As it stands in our society, going "I'll only date people I find attractive" makes you look shallow and crude, no matter your gender, so there's some sugar-coating going on.

And if we're talking about the "instant attraction" kind of thing, then physical attraction is pretty much the only thing you've got going for yourself, since you can't tell a person's hobbies or whether or not they're an asshole by looking at them.

That sounds pretty bizarre to me. I don't see anything wrong with dating only people you are attracted to- isn't that part of the point of dating? `Shallow` or not.

Just like being nice is a pretty basic standard in behaviour, being attracted to someone is kind of the basic standard for a relationship.

If when I was single you asked me what I wanted from a guy, I would have said I wasn't going for looks, I would just want a guy who liked games as much as I do and wasn't a dick. That describes a lot of guys.
If there were two guys who fit that description and I was only attracted to one of them, I don't think it would be dishonest of me to go out with the one I was attracted to.

Most people mean they're not JUST going for looks, but they're always gonna date someone who they find attractive.

The looks will ultimately tip the scales, all other things being equal, no way around that. Luckily there's no accounting for taste, so there's no such thing as an universal measure of "attractiveness" as far as an individual is concerned (I do realize there are physical traits as a society we tend to consider more attractive than others).

But since looks are the first thing you notice, "all other things being equal" doesn't apply because at that moment you simply know nothing about them. Note that I'm including "non-verbal body communication" under looks here, for simplicity's sake (as in, it's something you see with your eyes, without actually exchanging a word).

Well, similarly, looks will probably give you a leg up initially.
You probably wont be interested in getting to know someone better (in a dating sense) if you aren't attracted to them all. I don't see how that would make someone a bad person.

I'll just, a little tangentially, throw in that I still haven't figured out the difference between "a date" and "two people spending time together"; which I find might be another problem. Guys often tend to think that "a date" is a whole otherworldly experience, some sort of a "ritual".

A date is when you both agree it's a date I guess.
The only person I go on dates with is already my boyfriend so I'm not much help there.