Isn't there room for both men and women in AAA gaming?

V da Mighty Taco

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Phasmal said:
I'm not sure those two numbers would be radically different?
I mean, women aren't all pirates. :p

And an interesting question- me and my boyfriend play games, so if we buy a singleplayer game for our Xbox, only one of us is physically buying the copy- so who counts as buying it, audience-wise? Just the one who actually paid at the counter?
But you see, Phasmal me-dear, that does make you a filthy pirate. Don't you know that game-sharing is wrong? :p

Obnoxious jab at the game industry out of the way, it is worth noting what kind of games women are typically associated with playing (regardless of what they're actually playing). Males gamers are typically seen as the people who'll buy a yearly / bi-yearly installment of a $60 franchise, plus all the applicable DLC. The ladies, on the otherhand, are primarily associated with F2P / $0.99 mobile games, Facebook games, and the Sims. Out of those, only the Sims is anywhere near AAA. The $60 annual / biannual games males are associated with are more-or-less the lifeblood of most of the AAA industry.

Long story short, it's the ever-obvious perception issue. Much of the AAA market runs under the assumption that, while a large female market exists, few women are actually going to play their game, and design said games with that philosophy in mind. At least here in the U.S. anyways - Japan in general seems pretty aware of its female fanbases.
 

Coakle

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ExtraDebit said:
You need to know something about AAA games, regardless of sexism involved, majority of AAA games are just there for your money and have absolutely no soul.

There's no sexism in AAA games, only capitalism.
I think I'm getting off topic, but I disagree with some of this sentiment. Yeah, It's pretty self-evident that AAA games are in the business of making money. However, the AAA games industry was built in a way that rewards companies that include sexist elements in their games. Even if the motivation for including these elements are completely Capitalistic, it doesn't change the end product.

I don't there's some grand sexism conspiracy in the AAA industry. There are just some understandable pressures that influence how a game treats women.

OT: I got nothing. The OP is kind of weird because it asks if the AAA is capable of pandering to women. The answer is obviously yes. I don't know if we're suppose to talk about the kinds of obstacles the AAA faces, or what.
 

Rebel_Raven

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Apparently, according to some, no, unless women are willing to only play games aimed towards guys, and dudebros since women will never become viable consumers, thus should never be pandered to, ever, at all.


According to me? Sure! Sooner or later things will balance out. Talks like this will fuel this, and hopefully bring it about sooner.
 

AgedGrunt

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"AAA" sports are basically all men. Still, LPGA and WNBA are things. Anybody watch them?

Most porn is made with men in mind, despite the fact that a lot of women like porn (yet many are turned off by much of what's out there). But it's a perfect example because anyone can make porn and, if popular enough, would become mainstream.

But none of this means mainstream sports (or porn) needs to change. We don't get to choose what's popular and marketable; industries tend to figure that out so they make money.
 

Burnouts3s3

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Phasmal said:
Ok first to address the issue of the auto penis.

Here's the simple explanation [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeiyDQxZkTw&feature=share&list=PL4A90CE3B10FEA02E&index=7]

Yes that's really something that was happening and is in part the reason for part of the whole "Fake gamer girl" issues be it actual girls (a minority) thinking for some reason they should be given free things and helped or guys pretending and insisting they are female. Or guys doing this in a stupid attempt to actually get somewhere with a girl.

Now I actually had this happen, almost and have had other such things happen and wrote this rant [http://www.destructoid.com/blogs/TheKodu/it-s-not-for-lack-of-a-dick-i-insult-you-but-for-being-one-rant-long--253039.phtml]. Now the idea of offering nudes is meant to work on the grounds of well it's showing some level of trust and intimacy as well you're talking to the person it's not just another set of boobs on google image search. You can put a name and personality to them........ Yeh I'm almost making it seem like guys care about more than boobs.


Ok back to the main topic.
"Is there room in the AAA market for Female gamers ? "
Yes

"So what's the issue ?"

Firstly there is no existing market as such (there is a market but it's not seen as large enough to sustain AAA development)so any company making a female aimed AAA game would be taking a risk and the AAA market is more risk averse than it has been in a long time.

Next while people say that 45% of gamers are female that at present doesn't define what games those include so that 45% could simply be them playing Candy Crush Saga and nothing else. Because they play Candy Crush doesn't mean that will be into "core" gaming which is an integral part of the AAA market idea.

So the risk averse AAA market isn't going to take a shot at 45% of the market at best which isn't a solid figure.

It would be nice is there were more games for the female gamers ? Yes


So now people might be questioning what the issue is here now and rightfully so.

The question should be "Is there room in AAA gaming for extremist second wave feminists ?"

Now let me pre-face this part by saying Feminism is a good idea, equal right is a good idea and third wave feminism has started to work to address the more problematic elements of second wave feminism.

So here the issue. The more extreme second wave feminists don't want games for female gamers........... that might come as a shocker but the reason for this is they product is specifying it is for one gender. According to second wave feminist beliefs this is wrong however people in this sector still want games tailored to them and the principals of second wave feminism which some people have taken to extremes.

The issue comes about with the idea that to promote equality then games must adhere to the second wave feminist principals including pacifism. What the perception is that the extreme second wave feminists want games tailored to them and that everyone should accept the games because if not you're against them and as such against what they stand for. It could be seen as a very manipulative stance because it is demanding games tailored to them and no-one else and then attacking people who claim the games isn't for them because it isn't just trying to adhere to equal rights but also extra things added in due to an interpretation of the original second wave feminist values.

Essentially a company could be seen as damned if they do and damned if they don't by the same people as if they make games for a female audience they'll be damned for appealing only to females and not trying to say the game is for guys and daring to make games also aimed at guys.



We're presently in a situation where the main voice of female gamers has become some-one who due to their beliefs could turn AAA gaming into a homogenised grey goop. Now let me say this, it is possible to make games appeal to both male and female gamers however no all games should have to do this.


Finally what I call the "boobs first" argument which is another problem as the look of a female character is often being used as the whole basis for a sexism argument which often overlooks personality.

what you could say is that the chain-mail bikini does have its place along with the loin cloth / fur pelt look.

To give an example of he issue if you look at Dead or Alive, on the surface it looks like pretty much fan service / eye candy (not helped by someone seeing the characters as dress up dolls as shown by the recent DLCs) however the story and characters actually have a fairly positive depth to it with female characters including but not limited to: the CEO of a multinational company and a world leading female geneticist / biologist.

what I could almost compare the complaints to would be me moaning (and not in a mocking way) that all Male characters are idealised and aren't all Rufus from Street Fighter because I'm closer to looking like Rufus than Kratos.



now for a final very odd thing. The community I've seen that had closest to the 45% female to male ratio in AAA console gaming was Gears of War 1. No I'm not joking either when I used to play it fairly regularly I used to run into a lot of female gamers on it.
 

JonnyHG

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Phasmal said:
I'm not sure those two numbers would be radically different?
I mean, women aren't all pirates. :p

And an interesting question- me and my boyfriend play games, so if we buy a singleplayer game for our Xbox, only one of us is physically buying the copy- so who counts as buying it, audience-wise? Just the one who actually paid at the counter?
To be honest, I didn't even consider piracy. I have just seen statistics thrown around that say X% of people who play games are female. That's great but in a male dominated game industry, AAA games will be catered towards the male audience. My logic is that since this is true, males would be more likely to shell out the cash for a brand new game. I'm not saying that females don't, can't or shouldn't. Clearly, females do play AAA games. I would just be interested to know the difference in percentage between those that play AAA games aimed at a male audience and those that are willing to pay full price for those games. I believe the discrepancy is bigger than some might think. We just happen to disagree on the subject and that's okay.

Where is the money that is being used to buy the game coming from? Who is bringing home the cash? Do you both have jobs and throw all of your monies into the same account? If the game is being bought for both of you, then the one who earned the money bought the game. This is just my opinion. If your bf buys the game, then a male bought it but both a male and female played it. This situation would contribute to the discrepancy between females buying new AAA games and females playing AAA games. If you bought the game with money you earned then of it would be the other way around.
 

Eve Charm

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First there are only a few things that can brandish Triple A or at least Triple A sales. The problem tho, Big name FPS, Lumping all of sports together, and the occasional GTA/Elders Scrolls/Fallout are about the only thing triple A, and as far as their market data go, Are still bought more by men ages 14-35 and if a game is still going to be triple A, you have to target that.

Now that hasn't Stopped the Two big FPS's of last year and Titanfall to add a gender option for your character, Games like Last of us and Bioshock infinite story being more focused and about the Female character rather then the male player character, and your western RPG's not mattering what gender/race you are. Sports are still sports.

Sadly though no one praises any of that and want the all or nothing scenario. Like there should be "Female characters in gaming" reparations because of how dominate male characters were before in the past. I expect people to not be happy until it's GTA 6 with an all female cast which will most likely never happen.
 

carnex

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That is so true. As a group we are so quick to blame and to spread our disappointment and even hate all over the internet. But I wouldn't say it's up to gamers that much, although that is factor also. Gaming media which is steaming pile of excrement in my opinion is as sensationalistic as socialite magazines. Whenever some group complains, especially about some form of popular discrimination or that complain paints big publishers in bad light they sound their horns like it's 1944 and combined RAF and USAF are unloading bombs from all their bombers at once. In that atmosphere all the positive feedback and constructive criticism can easily be drowned out.

Luckily, at least in interviews, developers do acknowledge positive and constructive feedback that is there but I don't know how much publishers and their marketing/consumer research departments are versed in ignoring sensationalistic shouting. I'm afraid that they are more susceptible to loud noise than to thoughtful word. I may be giving them too little credit but, so far, results are not proving me wrong.
 

Atmos Duality

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There is plenty of room, but AAA is too addicted to their marketing data; believing it infallible.

And why not? It's made them a tremendous amount of money over the years. So like any large corporate entity, it will do everything in its power to maintain the status quo; abjectly refusing to change anything until it's already thrashing about in its death throes.

You can no more get the AAA to venture outside of their "safe" market zone than you could teach an elephant to tapdance; a blind, bloated, aging elephant.
 

Phasmal

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The_Kodu said:
Ok first to address the issue of the auto penis.

Here's the simple explanation [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeiyDQxZkTw&feature=share&list=PL4A90CE3B10FEA02E&index=7]


Yes that's really something that was happening and is in part the reason for part of the whole "Fake gamer girl" issues be it actual girls (a minority) thinking for some reason they should be given free things and helped or guys pretending and insisting they are female. Or guys doing this in a stupid attempt to actually get somewhere with a girl.
You know how many times a guy has given me something for free on a game for being a girl?
Never. Not even once.
Unless you count all the free harassment and insults. Gee, guys, you shouldn't have.

I mean it, seriously, I've been all kinds of involved in all kinds of games and have never had someone just GIVE me something because I was female.
The_Kodu said:
Now the idea of offering nudes is meant to work on the grounds of well it's showing some level of trust and intimacy as well you're talking to the person it's not just another set of boobs on google image search. You can put a name and personality to them........ Yeh I'm almost making it seem like guys care about more than boobs.
Ok if you're doing something just because some random username promised you nudes I am guessing you don't care about their personality. Or you would just do it for their personality.
Either way it's pretty dumb and I can't say I feel sorry for people who fall for it.
JonnyHG said:
Where is the money that is being used to buy the game coming from? Who is bringing home the cash? Do you both have jobs and throw all of your monies into the same account? If the game is being bought for both of you, then the one who earned the money bought the game. This is just my opinion. If your bf buys the game, then a male bought it but both a male and female played it. This situation would contribute to the discrepancy between females buying new AAA games and females playing AAA games. If you bought the game with money you earned then of it would be the other way around.
I am the only one with money right now so I guess all the games are belong to me.
I wouldn't be surprised if this situation happens a lot though, most of the girl gamers I know who play `core` are in long-term relationships with other gamers.
 

nomotog_v1legacy

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Phasmal said:
The_Kodu said:
Ok first to address the issue of the auto penis.

Here's the simple explanation [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeiyDQxZkTw&feature=share&list=PL4A90CE3B10FEA02E&index=7]


Yes that's really something that was happening and is in part the reason for part of the whole "Fake gamer girl" issues be it actual girls (a minority) thinking for some reason they should be given free things and helped or guys pretending and insisting they are female. Or guys doing this in a stupid attempt to actually get somewhere with a girl.
You know how many times a guy has given me something for free on a game for being a girl?
Never. Not even once.
Unless you count all the free harassment and insults. Gee, guys, you shouldn't have.

I mean it, seriously, I've been all kinds of involved in all kinds of games and have never had someone just GIVE me something because I was female.
I do recall a time way back when it seemed people would give you help if they thought you were a girl. This was way way back in my muding days. It wasn't like I actually got anything good, but people did treat me differently based on what gender they thought I was.

Now a days I find people still give me stuff, but they do it regardless of my avatar's gender. It's still mostly crap and that can be a little awkward as I have to think of a way to show appreciation before I sell the gifts off as vender trash.

The harassment or unwanted attention from being thought of as a women is about the same then and now. That is one thing that I don't think has changed much. I get some people asking for really personal information or naked pictures if they think I'm woman. They never ask if they think I am a guy. I use to be kind of evasive and avoid the creep, but now a days I straight up tell them how creepy that is.

It's funny or maybe it's not, but this is all really based on what they think you are and not actually what you are or what your presenting yourself as. The internet is really bad at guessing gender. Like, they could flip a coin and have better odds. Not that I am any better myself.
 

Phasmal

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In regards to giving/being given stuff- generally in games I spend a reasonable amount of time on I am an officer of a guild, so I'm usually the one giving stuff out to guildies. I've been previously told I am `the nicest guy`.

nomotog said:
It's funny or maybe it's not, but this is all really based on what they think you are and not actually what you are or what your presenting yourself as. The internet is really bad at guessing gender. Like, they could flip a coin and have better odds. Not that I am any better myself.
I hear that, spent a few years being a dude on games, nobody was any the wiser. It was pretty cool, until I started wanting to be myself and use voice chat and things.
 

verdant monkai

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Thank you Andrew Siribohdi for showing us the way! no one had considered this before you led us to the light!!
 

Burnouts3s3

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There always was. It's just one of those things that 'AAA' decided on. You know like when they decided that Survival Horror games don't sell well. or when they decided that turn based JRPG's don't sell well.

Truth is far more complex than reality.

Gamers are actually pretty gender neutral when you get down to it. Proof?

You're playing Street FIghter MK, or any fighting game and notice your opponent is female... do you say 'Ah easy fight?' Or to put it this way.

"Whew! the boss is a chick, this will be easy' Said NO Gamer EVER (or at least more than once).
 

nomotog_v1legacy

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Phasmal said:
In regards to giving/being given stuff- generally in games I spend a reasonable amount of time on I am an officer of a guild, so I'm usually the one giving stuff out to guildies. I've been previously told I am `the nicest guy`.

nomotog said:
It's funny or maybe it's not, but this is all really based on what they think you are and not actually what you are or what your presenting yourself as. The internet is really bad at guessing gender. Like, they could flip a coin and have better odds. Not that I am any better myself.
I hear that, spent a few years being a dude on games, nobody was any the wiser. It was pretty cool, until I started wanting to be myself and use voice chat and things.
I try to avoid guilds. They just don't mesh with me. They are so organized and I tend to... not be. I do notice that most of the time when someone is giving me items it's someone form a guild. Maybe they are just trying to butter me up so I won't auto reject their invitation as I tend to do. I'm ashamed to say it mostly works. (Have you noticed the how common uninsulated guild or group invites are? When I play, I normally get 3 or more a play station. They come with no tell or explanation attached and I normally just knock them down.

Being able to pick your genre is a nice aspect of mmos and ya it's part of why I shy away from voice chat. (The other reason being the increased bandwidth and the impression it makes me too hard core.) I tend to still be myself when I'm dudeing it. I don't try to dude up my style or anything though even if that leads to some interesting bits. Nor do I try to girl up my style when playing as a woman. That leads to different interesting bits.
 

Kerethos

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Based on my own experience I have to say yes, there is definitely room for both men and women in AAA gaming. And based on the women I game with I'd say the most common thing in what games they enjoy is mostly the same things that I enjoy. And what turns them away from certain games seem to overlapping to some degree as well.

So based on a quick check on what they play I've picked up this: Women like gender equal (basically you can be male or female) and capable female characters. RPG's, MMO games and some shooters come to mind.

Games that women seem to avoid, from my narrow male perspectives point of view, are games that suffer from sexualised character design. They - like men - want capable characters, not sexy ones. It's fine to be good looking, but sexualisation does not appeal. Portals Chell, Gears of Wars Anya Stroud, the sirens in Borderlands Lilith and Maya, Femshep those seem to be liked by the women I game with.

Basically, this type of character design does not appeal to the women I game with:


This does:


I'd hardy call my conclusions science, by any stretch of the imagination. But a little deduction tells me that there seems to be some kind of pattern to it. It also seems that there's certainly room for both genders. But who knows, maybe it's just the sleep deprivation, drugs and intense pain that's making me see things that are not there? Bedtime I think, before the Rabbid behind my TV tries to eat my cheese.
 

Rebel_Raven

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Eve Charm said:
First there are only a few things that can brandish Triple A or at least Triple A sales. The problem tho, Big name FPS, Lumping all of sports together, and the occasional GTA/Elders Scrolls/Fallout are about the only thing triple A, and as far as their market data go, Are still bought more by men ages 14-35 and if a game is still going to be triple A, you have to target that.

Now that hasn't Stopped the Two big FPS's of last year and Titanfall to add a gender option for your character, Games like Last of us and Bioshock infinite story being more focused and about the Female character rather then the male player character, and your western RPG's not mattering what gender/race you are. Sports are still sports.

Sadly though no one praises any of that and want the all or nothing scenario. Like there should be "Female characters in gaming" reparations because of how dominate male characters were before in the past. I expect people to not be happy until it's GTA 6 with an all female cast which will most likely never happen.
I certainly praised Titanfall, and CoD for having a female option. Still, it's just the option, and I doubt it matter much at all to the game which you pick. I'm not saying the option isn't nice, but saying "mission accomplished, equality's reached" is still an overstatement.
Honestly, neither event was publicized much, either. It wasn't a huge event. Not being something of a splash kinda dulled the impact of these events, so people don't talk about it. It's hard to make a huge deal out of these events due to that, and the fact it's just gender select.

Bioshock never let you play as Elisabeth, so that's not going to help the matter much, IMO. No matter how good of an unplayable sidekick she is, she's still the unplayable sidekick. Moreover, one that needs rescuing.

TLOU added a DLC where you play as Ellie, and you could play as her temporarily in the main game. That's actual progress, but not entirely there. I doubt I'm alone in not wanting to play as the guy for most of the game just so I can play as the girl for a smaller fraction of it.

Pretty sure gender select has been in several sports games, but it's been so rare as I forgot which game. Still, lets not pretend NBA Jam doesn't exist, where there's several playable women who are in no way handicapped due to the fantasy world of NBA Jam. Peach is in mario sports to say the least. Frankly, we just gotta get the fantasy sporting game into more systems than just Nintendo's more often, IMO.
I've not heard much interest in "equality" in the front of fighting games since, IMO, the gender ratio's pretty decent in that single genre, and only that one for some reason.

As towards GTA 6 with an "all female cast" I'm guessing you're either aiming at extremes on purpose, or only looking at playable characters. The latter, if they abandon the multiple points of view mechanic from 5 (it could happen)and have one character, an all female cast would be sought after, yes.

If they don't abandon the multiple points of view mechanic from 5, I'm pretty sure at least one of them being female would be more than enough, provided she gets the same care as the guys get. Sure there'll be some demanding all of them to be women, but I doubt they'll be as many as the people sated for the time being on having even 1 badass female criminal in a GTA game.

Honestly, IMO, R* has twice over showed us a good candidate for a female lead (Unnamed woman from Read Dead Redemption's side quest "Who are you to judge" not to be confused with the promo art woman, and the female driver from GTA5, Taliana Martinez), even in a DLC side story, yet hasn't managed to capitalize on a female playable character beyond GTAO which is kinda halfassed. Sure female characters have their own swag, and customization, but picking up a prostitute shows obviously male interactions, and that dating site that says "free for women" still charges you, so that kinda hurts the GTAO case. Sure they're pretty trivial things, but they're still there.

In any event, gender select is assuredly not the end all, be all answer IMO. It's due to the fact that your choice so rarely makes a dang for the majority of the game. The equality is nice, but it forces a watered down, sterile, unisex personality for the most part. Few companies do the option any justice.
That said, people want a female playable lead with her own dedicated story. I can't imagine you're angry at people for wanting a playable female protagonist with her own dedicated point of view/script/plot. If it's too much to ask, then I dare say the people asking for a playable female lead are not the unreasonable side of the argument.

I'm not going to pretend progress hasn't been made towards a more palatable representation (at least for me) but it's still nowhere near the point I find acceptable, IMO. That point being nowhere near 50/50 gender ratio, mind you, just in a more common showing.

The more common something becomes, the less of a big deal it'll become, IMO. That said, the more common a female lead you play as from start to finish in a non-gender select game gets, the less of a big deal it becomes, and the less likely we'll see threads like this. Once some sort of equilibrium has been reached, and, frankly, only until then, we're going to see threads like this remain fairly common.
It'll stop being a big deal when it stops being a big deal.

Sorry for the rant. :p
 

michael87cn

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For any kind of content to exist, people have to want to make it. That's the reality of it. If no content that appeals to X exists, then its because nobody has made it yet. Someone has to -want- to make something and it will exist. If people really want to, they will find a way. And lately, it couldn't be easier to make-your-own-video-game.

The opinions of others, mean nothing. They spark drama and generate ad revenue for news channels. That's about it. If someone is really sitting around thinking about making a game they want, but then they hear that X doesn't want it, and that stops them, they must have not really wanted to do it to begin with if they are phased so easily.

You can point fingers at whoever you want, and cite blame or reason or excuse here, there and anywhere and anyway you want, but it doesn't matter. The truth is if someone wants to make something they will. If they don't, then they don't, and they haven't.

In my worthless opinion? Men like games more than women. By a massive majority. We single-handedly created this new world collectively. If women want games that appeal to them, with half-naked men if they want? They should go right ahead and make them. If they want buff-macho women that can be super-heroes, they should make them. If MEN want to make these games for women, why haven't they? They must not want to, and no whining in the world will change that.

There are always minorities and exceptions, but this is all true.
 

carnex

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Rebel_Raven said:
Bioshock never let you play as Elisabeth, so that's not going to help the matter much, IMO. No matter how good of an unplayable sidekick she is, she's still the unplayable sidekick. Moreover, one that needs rescuing.
You might want to try Burial at the Sea DLC for Bioshock Infinite. You play whole 5 or so hours DLC content as Elizabeth.

michael87cn said:
There are quite a few women in both crating and consuming side of this industry. Yes, males were majority, especially around time of gen 2-3 and especially on creative side, but women did participate too.
 

Rebel_Raven

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michael87cn said:
For any kind of content to exist, people have to want to make it. That's the reality of it. If no content that appeals to X exists, then its because nobody has made it yet. Someone has to -want- to make something and it will exist. If people really want to, they will find a way. And lately, it couldn't be easier to make-your-own-video-game.

The opinions of others, mean nothing. They spark drama and generate ad revenue for news channels. That's about it. If someone is really sitting around thinking about making a game they want, but then they hear that X doesn't want it, and that stops them, they must have not really wanted to do it to begin with if they are phased so easily.

You can point fingers at whoever you want, and cite blame or reason or excuse here, there and anywhere and anyway you want, but it doesn't matter. The truth is if someone wants to make something they will. If they don't, then they don't, and they haven't.

In my worthless opinion? Men like games more than women. By a massive majority. We single-handedly created this new world collectively. If women want games that appeal to them, with half-naked men if they want? They should go right ahead and make them. If they want buff-macho women that can be super-heroes, they should make them. If MEN want to make these games for women, why haven't they? They must not want to, and no whining in the world will change that.

There are always minorities and exceptions, but this is all true.
I disagree on so many levels.

There's been many cases where developers had wanted to make female leads, but were put off on this due to the interference of others.

People -want- to make female leads. The opinions of other have stopped them from realizing this.

Lets not forget the pastel monstrosities that are Bratz games, and the sort. Or the games we'll likely never see stateside that are made in Japan that focus on women seeking romance.
The rare offering like Assassin's Creed Liberation, or Child of Light.

The want is there to make female leads. Creativity's being stifled, however.

Making one's own game to try and bring change is a fool's errand, IMO.
1: By the time you finish the game you'll likely hate it. Moreover you'll likely know the game inside and out so playing it is likely worthless because you know what will happen, when it'll happen.
2: Even massive successes on the indie front haven't done much, if anything to influence the greater console market. Game designs, and mechanics from Portal, or Minecraft for example, have seen no major showings in the main game market. Expecting to make an impact, and create pretenders, imitators, or followers is just unrealistic, beyond the indie scene.
3: Not everyone's got the time, funds, vision, or resources to make their own game.
Make your own game is not the answer, bluntly.

Not saying you can't make your own game, but suggesting it as a fix-all is not a sound idea.
If a person wanted to make their own game, they would have by now, most likely.

carnex said:
Rebel_Raven said:
Bioshock never let you play as Elisabeth, so that's not going to help the matter much, IMO. No matter how good of an unplayable sidekick she is, she's still the unplayable sidekick. Moreover, one that needs rescuing.
You might want to try Burial at the Sea DLC for Bioshock Infinite. You play whole 5 or so hours DLC content as Elizabeth.
Shame it's not standalone DLC AFAIK. I'll get Infinite on the cheap when I can. Paying that much to play as Elisabeth for 5 hours is a bit steep.
Still, it's good news, and some signs of progress.