If it makes your life better to think anyone with an opposing opinion is a mindless sheep, just parroting whatever a bunch of whiners said before they saw the movie, then go for it. Have fun.Kibeth41 said:
Its hard being a DC fan. (Rant)
- Thread starter Samtemdo8_v1legacy
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Marvel has done two things right:
The first was the creation of Marvel Studios as an independant entity responsible for all of their movie, TV and streaming properties. It's still very closely tied in with the source material and is a great way to preserve the integrity of the characters. It's not perfect, but there's still decent sense of cohesiveness between the MCU and the comics.
The second is dusting off third- and fourth-tier comic characters and letting amazing writers like Warren Ellis get a crack at them. His versions of Moon Knight and Karnak are incredible! They're not exactly "reboots" so much as just different a perspective.
On the other hand, everything DC does just seems to reek of a "me-too" cash grab.
Nolan's Dark Knight series was a success so DC wants to make everything "grim and gritty" without considering if that tone actually suits the character.
They continually reboot characters in ways that none of the fanbase has ever indicated wanting. The New 52 Lobo and Constantine are great examples of that.
I just get a sense there's no long term strategy and that they're constantly playing catch up.
Their TV shows are doing well, though. So maybe they'll figure out what working there and translate to the comics and movies.
The first was the creation of Marvel Studios as an independant entity responsible for all of their movie, TV and streaming properties. It's still very closely tied in with the source material and is a great way to preserve the integrity of the characters. It's not perfect, but there's still decent sense of cohesiveness between the MCU and the comics.
The second is dusting off third- and fourth-tier comic characters and letting amazing writers like Warren Ellis get a crack at them. His versions of Moon Knight and Karnak are incredible! They're not exactly "reboots" so much as just different a perspective.
On the other hand, everything DC does just seems to reek of a "me-too" cash grab.
Nolan's Dark Knight series was a success so DC wants to make everything "grim and gritty" without considering if that tone actually suits the character.
They continually reboot characters in ways that none of the fanbase has ever indicated wanting. The New 52 Lobo and Constantine are great examples of that.
I just get a sense there's no long term strategy and that they're constantly playing catch up.
Their TV shows are doing well, though. So maybe they'll figure out what working there and translate to the comics and movies.
Honestly this is the first time ive ever seen someone express the opinion that they want another Man of Steel movie.Samtemdo8 said:
id make some smartass joke regarding your sanity but honestly, that movie was just plain bad.
saying Snyder isnt Michael Bay is a fair point, Bay's transformer movies were at least enjoyable to watch.
I actually agree on the spirit of your points. I still think MoS is not a good movie (though not terrible) and I think BvS is trash, but I feel like BvS had a lot of great ideas (and some bad ones) and the actors really brought their A game. Its problem was that it was bloated, overstuffed. Its right there in the title: Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice. Its trying to be a Batman reboot, a Man of Steel sequel, and a Justice League set up film. Had it chosen one of those, it could have been great. But it tried doing all three and ended up giving none of them their due.
The whole film reeks of executive meddling. Like someone called up Snyder et al and said "Yeah, Man of Steel didn't do very well. Batman sells. Put Batman in the next one." And it changed from Man of Steel 2 to Batman v. Superman. Then, a little down the line, they called again and said, "Yeah, Marvel's running away with the shared universe thing, so BvS also needs to set up a Justice League film." Look carefully, and you can practically see the stitches where the Joker was cut out of this thing. Now, Suicide Squad looks more and more like "We can be Deadpool/Guardians of the Galaxy too! Look how wacky Harley is! Do you hear that pop music?"
The problem, however, isn't in the reviewers or the fans who criticized MoS, nor is it really Snyder's fault. The problem is DC/Warner Bros. They don't trust their directors to make good films, they don't trust the franchises they're making them from, and they don't trust fans to go watch the films unless Batman's in them and they can say "Look, we can be like Marvel too!"
If you told someone ten years ago that Marvel would find success with Thor, Ant Man, and the bloody Guardians of the Galaxy, they would have said you were crazy. But Marvel trusted their directors to bring out the spirit of the source material, trusted that source material to be strong enough that people would like it, and trusted their fans would go to theaters to watch the films. They didn't try to have "Hulk v. Iron Man: Birth of Vengeance" or something like that to introduce people to the MCU and the Avengers.
DC needs to stop trying to play catch up to Marvel and start doing their own thing. If they keep chasing Marvel's tail, they are going to keep falling on their face. DC did their own thing with Flash and Arrow and (while I won't say either series is perfect), they've had success there. A good (or even decent) second film could have helped this franchise. Heck, look at X-Men, which didn't have a decent installment until First Class and is now going very strong. But DC panicked when Man of Steel had middling reviews (not even awful; middling) and ended up sabotaging their own franchise.
The whole film reeks of executive meddling. Like someone called up Snyder et al and said "Yeah, Man of Steel didn't do very well. Batman sells. Put Batman in the next one." And it changed from Man of Steel 2 to Batman v. Superman. Then, a little down the line, they called again and said, "Yeah, Marvel's running away with the shared universe thing, so BvS also needs to set up a Justice League film." Look carefully, and you can practically see the stitches where the Joker was cut out of this thing. Now, Suicide Squad looks more and more like "We can be Deadpool/Guardians of the Galaxy too! Look how wacky Harley is! Do you hear that pop music?"
The problem, however, isn't in the reviewers or the fans who criticized MoS, nor is it really Snyder's fault. The problem is DC/Warner Bros. They don't trust their directors to make good films, they don't trust the franchises they're making them from, and they don't trust fans to go watch the films unless Batman's in them and they can say "Look, we can be like Marvel too!"
If you told someone ten years ago that Marvel would find success with Thor, Ant Man, and the bloody Guardians of the Galaxy, they would have said you were crazy. But Marvel trusted their directors to bring out the spirit of the source material, trusted that source material to be strong enough that people would like it, and trusted their fans would go to theaters to watch the films. They didn't try to have "Hulk v. Iron Man: Birth of Vengeance" or something like that to introduce people to the MCU and the Avengers.
DC needs to stop trying to play catch up to Marvel and start doing their own thing. If they keep chasing Marvel's tail, they are going to keep falling on their face. DC did their own thing with Flash and Arrow and (while I won't say either series is perfect), they've had success there. A good (or even decent) second film could have helped this franchise. Heck, look at X-Men, which didn't have a decent installment until First Class and is now going very strong. But DC panicked when Man of Steel had middling reviews (not even awful; middling) and ended up sabotaging their own franchise.
At this point, I have to assume Dini and Timm double teamed Dan DiDios wife or something. They could laugh all the way to the bank and critical acclaim if they just stuck them in charge of the DC Cinematic Universe. With the exception of a few stories, the DCAU is, was and for quite some time is likely to remain the best body of work DC have ever green light. It embodies the best qualities of the comic book genre, the best versions of the characters within, the best takes on stories and for quite a large portion of the fan base, the best line up of the Justice League.AccursedTheory said:
I don't understand the logic behind the idea that that "Man of Steel" criticism turned "Man of Steel 2" into BvS. Who criticised Man of Steel by saying that they wanted it to be darker, less coherent and filled with side characters and overextended previews of previous films. Besides the DC films don't deserve any praise until they start being good!
Criticism isn't the problem the real issue is DC and Warner Bros. severe bandwagon envy. They just ram in a whole bunch of things that have worked in other situations (Avengers, Dark Knight Returns etc.) and assumed they'd strike gold with it.
Criticism isn't the problem the real issue is DC and Warner Bros. severe bandwagon envy. They just ram in a whole bunch of things that have worked in other situations (Avengers, Dark Knight Returns etc.) and assumed they'd strike gold with it.
I have a friend who told me recently he will not watch Wonder Woman when it comes out because someone told him there's a scene in Wonder Woman: Earth One #1 where Wonder Woman takes Steve Trevor's pulse by grabbing his dick and not letting go as he tries to fight her off because she's a man-hating lesbian. No part of that description is true; she doesn't take his pulse, she doesn't grab his dick, he doesn't fight her, she doesn't hate men, and she's probably not a lesbian. Nevertheless, he believed what he read because DC has been so full of shit lately, it sounded completely credible to him that they would have put something like that into print. He didn't even question it. He just figured, "Yeah, sounds about like the shit they'd pull."
Right, that's about enough reasonable speech from me. Time to get sweary.
You can complain all you want about how no one likes Superman, but I don't buy it. If no one likes Superman, then surely they'd be happy with the not-Superman the Snyder movies have given us, right?
Right, that's about enough reasonable speech from me. Time to get sweary.
Oh, piss all over that. I love Superman. He is not just deeply and personally important to me for reasons I've written thousands of words about across various social media platforms, he is also the single greatest icon in my understanding of American mythology. The devolution of his character from a man with good intentions to a Flanderized mockery of same scorned and sneered at while never being comprehended, deconstructed imperfectly and reassembled to try to please an audience so in love with its own contrived cynicism it can't appreciate a character who just wants people to not be hurt, is something I've marked with increasing sadness at what it says about our culture and the way we enshrine self-absorption as some kind of virtue. If DC had the guts to show me a Superman movie that is not ashamed of its origins and iconography, I'd have been singing the praises of this movie from the beginning. Instead, we get a movie made by a man who says if he'd directed Batman Begins, the Chinese prison scene would have included Bruce Wayne getting raped because that's what happens in prison. Batman gets bent over in the shower and cornholed.Samtemdo8 said:
You can complain all you want about how no one likes Superman, but I don't buy it. If no one likes Superman, then surely they'd be happy with the not-Superman the Snyder movies have given us, right?
That is an incredibly insulting position to take, if you genuinely believe people can't dislike a movie on its own merits for their own reasons and are just brainwashed sheep bleating whatever line is currently in vogue. I get that you have some immense, personal interest in lionizing DC and demonizing Marvel, but please do try not to paint people who disagree with you as zombies with no minds of their own.Samtemdo8 said:
No, it is not. They are not yours, so nothing is being taken from you. If they are, then the guys who win the Powerball jackpots instead of me are stealing my money.Samtemdo8 said:
That a movie is not as bad as the worst thing you can imagine doesn't mean the movie is good. That's like arguing that a heart attack hurts less that bone cancer metastasized to the marrow, so heart attacks are therefore a desirable medical condition.Samtemdo8 said:
I just saw Civil War in Theaters....it was Excellent!!!
No any kind of comparison with the Batman v Superman Movie.
Civil War have a spirit, BvS don't.
Tomorrow I hope to write a Thread about it and talk more about it.
But I will tell this about BvS movie: People had BIG expectations [like me] to be a great movie. Not just ok in my opinion.
Also about that you said: "If no one criticized Man of Steel we would have had a Man of Steel 2 and a stand alone Batman movie".
Well, we will have a movie base the Ben Affleck Batman which was the a good point in BvS movie.
Marvel Studios had created a good universe and I hope the best of them.
DC Movies....I hope the new Batman movie to be good and maybe the Suicide Squad also?
No any kind of comparison with the Batman v Superman Movie.
Civil War have a spirit, BvS don't.
Tomorrow I hope to write a Thread about it and talk more about it.
But I will tell this about BvS movie: People had BIG expectations [like me] to be a great movie. Not just ok in my opinion.
Also put the Death of Superman Plot in your movie in the last minutes of it, was very weak...
Well, we will have a movie base the Ben Affleck Batman which was the a good point in BvS movie.
Marvel Studios had created a good universe and I hope the best of them.
DC Movies....I hope the new Batman movie to be good and maybe the Suicide Squad also?
I'll be honest, while B&R is a fucking awful movie, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it's a better Batman COMIC BOOK movie than most of the stuff DC has put out since. I know that sounds like an incredibly hipster, anti status quo, but I feel that while Nolans Batman movies were good movies in their own right, as Batman or Comic Book movies, they really don't work. Having Gary Oldman as the main character would've made more sense given the sheer level of grounded realism they were going for to the point that Batman just doesn't fit in.JimB said:
MoS fits the issues you're describing currently with Superman, written for warping his character in an attempt to appeal to people who for some reason just don't like him for being Superman; the guy who helps people. Frankly they should probably just read "What's so Funny about Truth, Justice and the American Way?" Or Read/Watch All Star Superman.
It's kind of sad what DC has done with Man Of Steel and BVS. The Nolan Batman trilogy was largely responsible for the huge boost in main stream popularity that comic books have got over the years. Then they hired Zack Snyder to direct and it all went down the drain. :'(
... If he was fightin' back, why was she tryin' to take his pulse? I get that it's just made up and he believed it, but... She'd be taking his pulse because he didn't seem to be alive, right? So why would she be taking his pulse? And from his dick of all places! And if he were fighting back, why wouldn't she let go? He must obviously have a pulse. And if she were a man-hating lesbian, why would she grab his dick? How can anyone, for any reason, believe this?JimB said:
It's nonsense anyway. Warner changed their release strategy after the failure of Green Lantern and the success of the Avengers, and had already optioned Goyer for a three movie deal. One of those movies would be BVS.K12 said:
But assuming for a moment that this was the case, I can answer your question easily:
DC/Warner doesn't know what the hell it's doing.
I suspect, in this Elseworlds tale, that they looked at the crap they took for MOS and looked at Avengers. Avengers has the good guys fight. Let's copy that. Avengers had a bunch of plot threads. Let's copy that. And so on. So they copied the Marvel formula without understanding it and got some abomination. Actually, I thin kthat violates a Marvel trademark. >.>
I could see the A to B here, but it's moot.
What, is Frank Miller writing her in Earth One?JimB said:
Awwww....
Hey! Stop making my people straight! >.>
TBH, it sounds like the sort of thing that gets believed routinely because it involves a strong female character, and that's what strong chicks are perceived to do. Hate men and bust balls.
Honestly, though, at least Batman and Robin was fun. I'm not so interested in comparing the quality of bad movies, but I would rather watch a bad movie I can laugh at than one that makes me check my watch every two minutes.
He was wounded, and she was trying to treat him. In both the actual book and the fictitious account of the book, I should say. This next bit is supposition, but I would not be surprised to learn the person telling the story included misrepresented elements of the book's submission theme to become a dominance theme, in which Wonder Woman sexually molests Steve Trevor in order to exert dominance over him.Captain Marvelous said:
Grant Morrison, but my friend did not know who was writing the book when he heard and accepted the story he did.Something Amyss said:
Oh, I didn't say she's straight, because she's not. But I doubt she's a lesbian.Something Amyss said:
That too.Something Amyss said:
Wouldn't we all? Shit, I know a lot of people who grew up on Mystery Science Theater 3000 who went out seeking bad movies for entertainment value.Something Amyss said:
Actually she does feel his penis through his trousers for for one panel, although there's no trying to fight her off or her refusing to let go. The whole comic is her origin story and she's literally never seen of a man before. She meets Steve Trevor while rescuing him and once safe she feels his junk to see if he's really one of these mythical men. He's shocked and asks her to remove her hand and in the next panel she's removed her hand. It's a "haha, silly wonder woman, never having seen a man" type thing. There's nothing man hating about it and no fight over it.JimB said:
Also she's explicitly a lesbian in this world as she calls Mala, another Amazonian, her lover.
If one thinks of Batman and Robin as more Adam West/Silver Age Batman campy/corny/kooky, its a better movie all around. Except for Bat-nipples. That was just awful design choice.Something Amyss said:
And Arnold hamming it up with the puns was really not so terrible. I mean Freeze is a character that you either have to go super-serious with, or over-the-top ridiculous. Arnold could have done the other, more traditional Freeze, but he'd just be reprising the Terminator thing, and with the corny style of B&R it just would have been shit.
I've warmed up to Batman and Robin over the years, its not my favorite but its not as shit as I first thought either. Still, Bat-nipples... terrible terrible idea.
Yes, I know, but she does not grab it (it's hard to tell because they block the shot with Steve's left leg, but it looks like she's brushing his zipper with her fingertips, based on the placement of her forearm), she's not taking his pulse, and she certainly doesn't refuse to let go, is the point.Overhead said:
A woman can have a female lover without being a lesbian. Bisexuality, pansexuality, and probably a bunch of other sexualities I don't know the names of are things; and I really hope Grant Morrison is savvy enough not to have Wonder Woman be a lesbian, because I don't want to deal with people using her origin as living among a female society for hundreds of years as an excuse for her to be gay ("what do you expect, she's brainwashed").Overhead said:
I really don't understand how anyone believes this is what happened, but I've seen people claim it so many times. He traveled through time because of his super-speed, and while yes this is stupid in and of itself, it is DC canon that he and the Flash can both do this. Supes is not making the Earth rotate backwards, it simply looks that way because time is moving backwards.Samtemdo8 said:The man rotates the world to reverse time
On topic though, I agree that it's hard being a DC fan, because we deserve to have better movies than we are receiving right now, movies that show the same love and respect for the source material we do. You don't like Superman, then that's fine. But that doesn't mean that the Superman that so many of us do love should be bastardized in an attempt to be "dark and gritty" but just comes off as dull and constipated. There is no great conspiracy against DC, beyond the one being perpetrated at WB right now. I hear people complain that "everyone just wants them to be like Marvel". Fuck no! I want them to be like DC. And don't tell me that those characters don't work in the form that we love them, because the DCAU proves otherwise.
I love DC. I love Marvel. And I would love even more to have them both with strong and robust movie franchises because that would just push them each to greater heights. I haven't given up on DC yet, but they've got some convincing to do before I'm back on board either.