Its hard being a DC fan. (Rant)

[elvor0]

The DCAU was, and is, I imagine, the defining DC universe for an entire generation of viewers. It reached way more people then the comics ever have or will, and was just a blazing master piece. And honestly, I think it's the reason the new offerings from DC are so sad - Because the DCAU did everything their trying to do now, but it did it better then anything we're getting. Brutal Justice League? DCAU did it better. Government/The Public vs. JL? DCAU did it better. Building a universe where Superman/Martian Manhunter/Wonder Woman don't make 99% of the rest of the JL useless and redundant? The movies aren't even pretending to do that. Vigilantes vs. 'Heroic' heroes? They did that better to.

At this point, I have to assume Dini and Timm double teamed Dan DiDios wife or something. They could laugh all the way to the bank and critical acclaim if they just stuck them in charge of the DC Cinematic Universe. With the exception of a few stories, the DCAU is, was and for quite some time is likely to remain the best body of work DC have ever green light. It embodies the best qualities of the comic book genre, the best versions of the characters within, the best takes on stories and for quite a large portion of the fan base, the best line up of the Justice League.

 

[K12]

I don't understand the logic behind the idea that that "Man of Steel" criticism turned "Man of Steel 2" into BvS. Who criticised Man of Steel by saying that they wanted it to be darker, less coherent and filled with side characters and overextended previews of previous films. Besides the DC films don't deserve any praise until they start being good!

Criticism isn't the problem the real issue is DC and Warner Bros. severe bandwagon envy. They just ram in a whole bunch of things that have worked in other situations (Avengers, Dark Knight Returns etc.) and assumed they'd strike gold with it.

 

[JimB]

I have a friend who told me recently he will not watch Wonder Woman when it comes out because someone told him there's a scene in Wonder Woman: Earth One #1 where Wonder Woman takes Steve Trevor's pulse by grabbing his dick and not letting go as he tries to fight her off because she's a man-hating lesbian. No part of that description is true; she doesn't take his pulse, she doesn't grab his dick, he doesn't fight her, she doesn't hate men, and she's probably not a lesbian. Nevertheless, he believed what he read because DC has been so full of shit lately, it sounded completely credible to him that they would have put something like that into print. He didn't even question it. He just figured, "Yeah, sounds about like the shit they'd pull."

Right, that's about enough reasonable speech from me. Time to get sweary.

Sadly, and no one wants to admit it, no one likes Superman.

Oh, piss all over that. I love Superman. He is not just deeply and personally important to me for reasons I've written thousands of words about across various social media platforms, he is also the single greatest icon in my understanding of American mythology. The devolution of his character from a man with good intentions to a Flanderized mockery of same scorned and sneered at while never being comprehended, deconstructed imperfectly and reassembled to try to please an audience so in love with its own contrived cynicism it can't appreciate a character who just wants people to not be hurt, is something I've marked with increasing sadness at what it says about our culture and the way we enshrine self-absorption as some kind of virtue. If DC had the guts to show me a Superman movie that is not ashamed of its origins and iconography, I'd have been singing the praises of this movie from the beginning. Instead, we get a movie made by a man who says if he'd directed Batman Begins, the Chinese prison scene would have included Bruce Wayne getting raped because that's what happens in prison. Batman gets bent over in the shower and cornholed.

You can complain all you want about how no one likes Superman, but I don't buy it. If no one likes Superman, then surely they'd be happy with the not-Superman the Snyder movies have given us, right?

I feel none of this would have happened if no one said anything bad about Man of Steel.

That is an incredibly insulting position to take, if you genuinely believe people can't dislike a movie on its own merits for their own reasons and are just brainwashed sheep bleating whatever line is currently in vogue. I get that you have some immense, personal interest in lionizing DC and demonizing Marvel, but please do try not to paint people who disagree with you as zombies with no minds of their own.

It's so fucking unfair that things I really want to see happen are being taken away from me.

No, it is not. They are not yours, so nothing is being taken from you. If they are, then the guys who win the Powerball jackpots instead of me are stealing my money.

Nothing Zack Snyder does will be as awful as Batman and Robin.

That a movie is not as bad as the worst thing you can imagine doesn't mean the movie is good. That's like arguing that a heart attack hurts less that bone cancer metastasized to the marrow, so heart attacks are therefore a desirable medical condition.

 

[SweetShark]

I just saw Civil War in Theaters....it was Excellent!!!
No any kind of comparison with the Batman v Superman Movie.
Civil War have a spirit, BvS don't.

Tomorrow I hope to write a Thread about it and talk more about it.

But I will tell this about BvS movie: People had BIG expectations [like me] to be a great movie. Not just ok in my opinion.

Spoiler: Batman Versus Superman MAJOR SPOILER

Also put the Death of Superman Plot in your movie in the last minutes of it, was very weak...

Also about that you said: "If no one criticized Man of Steel we would have had a Man of Steel 2 and a stand alone Batman movie".
Well, we will have a movie base the Ben Affleck Batman which was the a good point in BvS movie.

Marvel Studios had created a good universe and I hope the best of them.
DC Movies....I hope the new Batman movie to be good and maybe the Suicide Squad also?

 

[elvor0]

Nothing Zack Snyder does will be as awful as Batman and Robin.

That a movie is not as bad as the worst thing you can imagine doesn't mean the movie is good. That's like arguing that a heart attack hurts less that bone cancer metastasized to the marrow, so heart attacks are therefore a desirable medical condition.

I'll be honest, while B&R is a fucking awful movie, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it's a better Batman COMIC BOOK movie than most of the stuff DC has put out since. I know that sounds like an incredibly hipster, anti status quo, but I feel that while Nolans Batman movies were good movies in their own right, as Batman or Comic Book movies, they really don't work. Having Gary Oldman as the main character would've made more sense given the sheer level of grounded realism they were going for to the point that Batman just doesn't fit in.

MoS fits the issues you're describing currently with Superman, written for warping his character in an attempt to appeal to people who for some reason just don't like him for being Superman; the guy who helps people. Frankly they should probably just read "What's so Funny about Truth, Justice and the American Way?" Or Read/Watch All Star Superman.

 

[CimmerianKing]

It's kind of sad what DC has done with Man Of Steel and BVS. The Nolan Batman trilogy was largely responsible for the huge boost in main stream popularity that comic books have got over the years. Then they hired Zack Snyder to direct and it all went down the drain. :'(

 

[CimmerianKing]

At least Batman and Robin had a coherent plot. :'( It makes me sad thinking about that...

 

[Captain Marvelous_v1legacy]

- where Wonder Woman takes Steve Trevor's pulse by grabbing his dick and not letting go as he tries to fight her off because she's a man-hating lesbian.

... If he was fightin' back, why was she tryin' to take his pulse? I get that it's just made up and he believed it, but... She'd be taking his pulse because he didn't seem to be alive, right? So why would she be taking his pulse? And from his dick of all places! And if he were fighting back, why wouldn't she let go? He must obviously have a pulse. And if she were a man-hating lesbian, why would she grab his dick? How can anyone, for any reason, believe this?

 

[Something Amyss]

I don't understand the logic behind the idea that that "Man of Steel" criticism turned "Man of Steel 2" into BvS.

It's nonsense anyway. Warner changed their release strategy after the failure of Green Lantern and the success of the Avengers, and had already optioned Goyer for a three movie deal. One of those movies would be BVS.

But assuming for a moment that this was the case, I can answer your question easily:

DC/Warner doesn't know what the hell it's doing.

I suspect, in this Elseworlds tale, that they looked at the crap they took for MOS and looked at Avengers. Avengers has the good guys fight. Let's copy that. Avengers had a bunch of plot threads. Let's copy that. And so on. So they copied the Marvel formula without understanding it and got some abomination. Actually, I thin kthat violates a Marvel trademark. >.>

I could see the A to B here, but it's moot.

I have a friend who told me recently he will not watch Wonder Woman when it comes out because someone told him there's a scene in Wonder Woman: Earth One #1 where Wonder Woman takes Steve Trevor's pulse by grabbing his dick and not letting go as he tries to fight her off because she's a man-hating lesbian.

What, is Frank Miller writing her in Earth One?

No part of that description is true

Awwww....

and she's probably not a lesbian.

Hey! Stop making my people straight! >.>

Nevertheless, he believed what he read because DC has been so full of shit lately, it sounded completely credible to him that they would have put something like that into print. He didn't even question it. He just figured, "Yeah, sounds about like the shit they'd pull."

TBH, it sounds like the sort of thing that gets believed routinely because it involves a strong female character, and that's what strong chicks are perceived to do. Hate men and bust balls.

That a movie is not as bad as the worst thing you can imagine doesn't mean the movie is good. That's like arguing that a heart attack hurts less that bone cancer metastasized to the marrow, so heart attacks are therefore a desirable medical condition.

Honestly, though, at least Batman and Robin was fun. I'm not so interested in comparing the quality of bad movies, but I would rather watch a bad movie I can laugh at than one that makes me check my watch every two minutes.

 

[JimB]

If he was fightin' back, why was she tryin' to take his pulse?

He was wounded, and she was trying to treat him. In both the actual book and the fictitious account of the book, I should say. This next bit is supposition, but I would not be surprised to learn the person telling the story included misrepresented elements of the book's submission theme to become a dominance theme, in which Wonder Woman sexually molests Steve Trevor in order to exert dominance over him.

What, is Frank Miller writing her in Earth One?

Grant Morrison, but my friend did not know who was writing the book when he heard and accepted the story he did.

Hey! Stop making my people straight!

Oh, I didn't say she's straight, because she's not. But I doubt she's a lesbian.

TBH, it sounds like the sort of thing that gets believed routinely because it involves a strong female character, and that's what strong chicks are perceived to do. Hate men and bust balls.

That too.

I would rather watch a bad movie I can laugh at than one that makes me check my watch every two minutes.

Wouldn't we all? Shit, I know a lot of people who grew up on Mystery Science Theater 3000 who went out seeking bad movies for entertainment value.

 

[Overhead]

I have a friend who told me recently he will not watch Wonder Woman when it comes out because someone told him there's a scene in Wonder Woman: Earth One #1 where Wonder Woman takes Steve Trevor's pulse by grabbing his dick and not letting go as he tries to fight her off because she's a man-hating lesbian. No part of that description is true; she doesn't take his pulse, she doesn't grab his dick, he doesn't fight her, she doesn't hate men, and she's probably not a lesbian. Nevertheless, he believed what he read because DC has been so full of shit lately, it sounded completely credible to him that they would have put something like that into print. He didn't even question it. He just figured, "Yeah, sounds about like the shit they'd pull."

Actually she does feel his penis through his trousers for for one panel, although there's no trying to fight her off or her refusing to let go. The whole comic is her origin story and she's literally never seen of a man before. She meets Steve Trevor while rescuing him and once safe she feels his junk to see if he's really one of these mythical men. He's shocked and asks her to remove her hand and in the next panel she's removed her hand. It's a "haha, silly wonder woman, never having seen a man" type thing. There's nothing man hating about it and no fight over it.

Also she's explicitly a lesbian in this world as she calls Mala, another Amazonian, her lover.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

Honestly, though, at least Batman and Robin was fun. I'm not so interested in comparing the quality of bad movies, but I would rather watch a bad movie I can laugh at than one that makes me check my watch every two minutes.

If one thinks of Batman and Robin as more Adam West/Silver Age Batman campy/corny/kooky, its a better movie all around. Except for Bat-nipples. That was just awful design choice.
And Arnold hamming it up with the puns was really not so terrible. I mean Freeze is a character that you either have to go super-serious with, or over-the-top ridiculous. Arnold could have done the other, more traditional Freeze, but he'd just be reprising the Terminator thing, and with the corny style of B&R it just would have been shit.
I've warmed up to Batman and Robin over the years, its not my favorite but its not as shit as I first thought either. Still, Bat-nipples... terrible terrible idea.

 

[JimB]

Actually she does feel his penis through his trousers for for one panel.

Yes, I know, but she does not grab it (it's hard to tell because they block the shot with Steve's left leg, but it looks like she's brushing his zipper with her fingertips, based on the placement of her forearm), she's not taking his pulse, and she certainly doesn't refuse to let go, is the point.

Also she's explicitly a lesbian in this world as she calls Mala, another Amazonian, her lover.

A woman can have a female lover without being a lesbian. Bisexuality, pansexuality, and probably a bunch of other sexualities I don't know the names of are things; and I really hope Grant Morrison is savvy enough not to have Wonder Woman be a lesbian, because I don't want to deal with people using her origin as living among a female society for hundreds of years as an excuse for her to be gay ("what do you expect, she's brainwashed").

 

[mduncan50]

The man rotates the world to reverse time

I really don't understand how anyone believes this is what happened, but I've seen people claim it so many times. He traveled through time because of his super-speed, and while yes this is stupid in and of itself, it is DC canon that he and the Flash can both do this. Supes is not making the Earth rotate backwards, it simply looks that way because time is moving backwards.

On topic though, I agree that it's hard being a DC fan, because we deserve to have better movies than we are receiving right now, movies that show the same love and respect for the source material we do. You don't like Superman, then that's fine. But that doesn't mean that the Superman that so many of us do love should be bastardized in an attempt to be "dark and gritty" but just comes off as dull and constipated. There is no great conspiracy against DC, beyond the one being perpetrated at WB right now. I hear people complain that "everyone just wants them to be like Marvel". Fuck no! I want them to be like DC. And don't tell me that those characters don't work in the form that we love them, because the DCAU proves otherwise.

I love DC. I love Marvel. And I would love even more to have them both with strong and robust movie franchises because that would just push them each to greater heights. I haven't given up on DC yet, but they've got some convincing to do before I'm back on board either.

 

[Something Amyss]

Grant Morrison, but my friend did not know who was writing the book when he heard and accepted the story he did.

I just had to make the joke, because that sounds like Miller's version from All-Star Batman and Robin. Or, at least, how it sounds to me based on Linkara's reviews, because I simply won't pay money for anything even remotely recent from Miller.

Oh, I didn't say she's straight, because she's not. But I doubt she's a lesbian.

Hmmmm...I'll accept it. This time.

Throwing this in here even though it's from another post and to another person, but relevant to the last bit:

A woman can have a female lover without being a lesbian. Bisexuality, pansexuality, and probably a bunch of other sexualities I don't know the names of are things; and I really hope Grant Morrison is savvy enough not to have Wonder Woman be a lesbian, because I don't want to deal with people using her origin as living among a female society for hundreds of years as an excuse for her to be gay ("what do you expect, she's brainwashed").

Not to mention, an island of only women (disclaimer: I have not read Earth 1, I don't know if this is still the case) might see practice of women taking other women as lovers even if they're heterosexual. People...have needs.

Of course, we all know that people are going to assume she's a man-hating lesbian anyway. And I doubt her origin will stay out of it. After all, how else could a woman not know her place in man's world? >.>

Wouldn't we all? Shit, I know a lot of people who grew up on Mystery Science Theater 3000 who went out seeking bad movies for entertainment value.

My friends and I often get together and watch riskier movies. The logic is that if it turns out to be a good movie, the group will enhance it. And if it turns out to be bad, we'll snark through it. This may or may not be MST3K inspired. >.>

Some movies are just...dull. I think the last movie I absolutely couldn't enjoy was King Arthur from like 2004. There wasn't even any good material to work with through most of that. BVS is so joyless I can't imagine anything saving it. Not even the real MST3K (or subsequent shows).

But yeah, we probably would. I'm just trying to put the complaint that "there's no way this is worse than BAR" in perspective.

If one thinks of Batman and Robin as more Adam West/Silver Age Batman campy/corny/kooky, its a better movie all around. Except for Bat-nipples. That was just awful design choice.
And Arnold hamming it up with the puns was really not so terrible. I mean Freeze is a character that you either have to go super-serious with, or over-the-top ridiculous. Arnold could have done the other, more traditional Freeze, but he'd just be reprising the Terminator thing, and with the corny style of B&R it just would have been shit.
I've warmed up to Batman and Robin over the years, its not my favorite but its not as shit as I first thought either. Still, Bat-nipples... terrible terrible idea.

Honestly, the movie wasn't going to be quality either way, so they might as well have gone full camp. I definitely didn't hate it, and I occasionally have fun pulling it out and playing it.

 

[Kyrian007]

I agree with the post's title. Maybe not with Samtemdo8's rant in general, but the title yes. It is kind of hard to be a DC fan... considering that their version of the shared movie universe absolutely blows.

The nearly unwatchable shaky-cam mess that was Man of Steel, they did tone that stupid camera gimmick down for BvS. But they didn't eliminate the stupid shaky-cam, and they made enough other mistakes that BvS wound up even worse than MoS which again I found nearly unwatchable.

Oh and by the way. The overuse of shaky-cam is annoying me with the Russo brothers as well. Winter Soldier and Civil War both destroyed what should have been amazing action sequences with ham-handed shaky-cam. I'm already wishing they get the boot for Infinity Wars. Or at least let them be script supervisors, but keep their ham-fists off the Paul Greengrass button.

And even prior to the shared universe that they started with the awful MoS, DC has disappointed way more often than not. They did have 2 good Batman iterations, no question. And one good iteration of Superman, so long ago it really barely counts. But that's BATMAN and SUPERMAN. The two most iconic superheroes ever created. People are ALWAYS going to like stories about them, some people even defend MoS and BvS. But what Marvel has done, that it's a real shame that DC apparently CAN'T do, is make any other characters into worthwile movies.

Mostly, Green Lantern. The lesson WB learned from the Green Lantern movie seems to be "WOW, people hate this guy. Let's just leave him out of the new DC MoS verse entirely." And that was WRONG. Fans don't HATE the character Green Lantern (any iteration, except for the racists bashing John Stewart,) they HATE that WB made a really shitty movie out of what could and should have easily been a slam dunk of a great comic book movie.

But also, Jonah Hex. The one that hurts me the most, because It's my favorite comic. Success should have been easy. Joe R. Lansdale writes, Don Coscarelli directs... boom, success. Why, Coscarelli already directed a short story Lansdale wrote, Lansdale wrote issues of Jonah Hex (and also great episodes of the 90's Batman cartoons.) And with Lansdale writing and Jonah Hex being dark anyway, WB would have gotten the super grimdark movie that obviously appeals to them so freaking much.

 

[elvor0]

The man rotates the world to reverse time

I really don't understand how anyone believes this is what happened, but I've seen people claim it so many times. He traveled through time because of his super-speed, and while yes this is stupid in and of itself, it is DC canon that he and the Flash can both do this. Supes is not making the Earth rotate backwards, it simply looks that way because time is moving backwards.

Pretty much this. I mean it is enormously powerful, but he can no longer do this anyway. Afaik, Superman and non Speed Force powered beings almost exclusively cap out at just over speed of sound, and Supes can't even reliably use his super speed for more than flying to places over long distance, as while he can move at superspeed, its just as fast to him as an onlooker, making it dangerous for him to use because he moves faster than he can comprehend. Complaints leveled at the silver age are way unfair anyway, as they were just making up whacky shit to sell comics, things are a lot more solid these days.

Flash doesn't have this problem as the speed force alters his perception of time, allowing him to move quickly without just smashing into a wall. Flash is quite possibly one of the most powerful characters in the DC universe if he wanted to be, but noone gives him flak just because his power level isn't quite so blunt.

Fans don't HATE the character Green Lantern (any iteration, except for the racists bashing John Stewart,) .

Woah, there are John Stewart haters? I've yet to encounter that. John Stewart is the best Lantern!

 

[SweetShark]

DC Comics: We have no respect for our Heroes and our fans. Except for Batman.

Not true...
Yes, the Batman in BvS was one of the good things I really liked, but I hope to see in the future equal respect for the other Heroes as well.
Plus I want to see how good is Will Smith as Deadshot. He look so cool. There is still hope.

 

[mduncan50]

DC Comics: We have no respect for our Heroes and our fans. Except for Batman.

Not true...
Yes, the Batman in BvS was one of the good things I really liked, but I hope to see in the future equal respect for the other Heroes as well.
Plus I want to see how good is Will Smith as Deadshot. He look so cool. There is still hope.

Well, even Batman they turned into a stone cold murderer, so I don't see how he's getting respect.

 

[Kyrian007]

Fans don't HATE the character Green Lantern (any iteration, except for the racists bashing John Stewart,) .

Woah, there are John Stewart haters? I've yet to encounter that. John Stewart is the best Lantern!

Yup, it's sad. They're the ones that whine and cry about the John Stewart version being featured in the Justice League cartoon instead of any of the Caucasian lanterns. They try and say it isn't about race... and then they scream about it just being done to make sure that more than just whites are represented.

Or something, or other. They're racists, always going on about something stupid or another. And it was an oversimplification, there are plenty of Kyle Rainer haters out there, and a contingent of Guy Gardner haters as well. But was it for the most part, the movie the people hated. Not the character which is (regardless of iteration) one of the most iconic and loved characters in the DC stable.