Its hard being a DC fan. (Rant)

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

Honestly I feel none of this would have happened if no one said anything bad about Man of Steel. If no one criticized Man of Steel we would have had a Man of Steel 2 and a stand alone Batman movie.

Not criticising Man of Steel is impossible. It's an awful movie, an awful Superman movie and an awful superhero movie. They made MoS the way they did because they wanted the grim and gritty look of Nolan's Batman, the *only* success they've enjoyed in recent years (not surprising since they're the only movies they even made, not including the Green Lantern which everyone will be best to forget ever happened). And it didn't work.

I just want my Zack Snyder DC movies because he has talent he knows how to make Comic Boook movies he proclaims he grew up reading comic books and I believe him and he makes action that is 10x better then any movie I have seen in theaters. And he is NOT MICHAEL BAY!!

You might, but almost everyone else with any taste whatsoever doesn't. Zack Snyder is a talentless filmmaker whose only great movie, Watchmen, was great because of the source material and cast. He makes shit films, Dawn of Justice was awful in every way...it looked awful, sounded awful, had awful pacing, awful storytelling, awful characters, no real plot and went on far too long. The best thing DC could do is get anyone else than Snyder to make an actual good film, and worry about Justice League later, years from now once they've established some characters and a larger, shared universe.

 

[Ira Levinas]

You're right. BVS only had 29 subplots as it is, should have went for the even 30

I don't buy that the movie was too complicated, many things happened, but most where one after another, and many where too simplified.
Im talking about give to one of the main characters some initiative instead of turning him into a puppet for the other characters.

 

[circularlogic88]

And now Civil War came out and of course people are saying this is how BvS should have been.

People want BvS to be like a movie which is even worse, and has even more plotholes than BvS.

Yeah, that's gotta be it...

 

[DefunctTheory]

And now Civil War came out and of course people are saying this is how BvS should have been.

People want BvS to be like a movie which is even worse, and has even more plotholes than BvS.

Yeah, that's gotta be it...

Pretty much. Bandwagoning is an effective thing. As soon as the first chunk of people say that it's a bad movie, the rest just kind of echo the opinion without actually looking at the content.

BvS is a pretty good movie. Most of the 'plot holes' which people list out for the movie are products of them just not paying attention.

As someone who went into Dawn of Justice of the full opinion that the critics were full of shit and it would be good, I disagree. BvS was bad, and the people who said it is bad aren't bandwagonning. It was filled not with plot holes (And I'm unaware of any large group of people really claiming it was), but with half explored subplots and questions that are never resolved because they can only do so much in a 153 minute long film.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

And now Civil War came out and of course people are saying this is how BvS should have been.

People want BvS to be like a movie which is even worse, and has even more plotholes than BvS.

Yeah, that's gotta be it...

Pretty much. Bandwagoning is an effective thing. As soon as the first chunk of people say that it's a bad movie, the rest just kind of echo the opinion without actually looking at the content.

BvS is a pretty good movie. Most of the 'plot holes' which people list out for the movie are products of them just not paying attention.

As someone who went into Dawn of Justice of the full opinion that the critics were full of shit and it would be good, I disagree. BvS was bad, and the people who said it is bad aren't bandwagonning. It was filled not with plot holes (And I'm unaware of any large group of people really claiming it was), but with half explored subplots and questions that are never resolved because they can only do so much in a 153 minute long film.

No, the subplots are there to build up to the Justice League movie.

I'm sure that was the intention, but they failed miserably. Things need to be resolved in a movie, even if there's a planned sequel - The Dark Knight trilogy and the MCU did it right. It's okay to leave a question or two out in the air - It's not ok to make a movie that asks an SAT's worth of questions and then answers fuck all. BvS is just a big pile of bait.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

Spoiler

And now Civil War came out and of course people are saying this is how BvS should have been.

People want BvS to be like a movie which is even worse, and has even more plotholes than BvS.

Yeah, that's gotta be it...

Pretty much. Bandwagoning is an effective thing. As soon as the first chunk of people say that it's a bad movie, the rest just kind of echo the opinion without actually looking at the content.

BvS is a pretty good movie. Most of the 'plot holes' which people list out for the movie are products of them just not paying attention.

As someone who went into Dawn of Justice of the full opinion that the critics were full of shit and it would be good, I disagree. BvS was bad, and the people who said it is bad aren't bandwagonning. It was filled not with plot holes (And I'm unaware of any large group of people really claiming it was), but with half explored subplots and questions that are never resolved because they can only do so much in a 153 minute long film.

No, the subplots are there to build up to the Justice League movie.

I'm sure that was the intention, but they failed miserably. Things need to be resolved in a movie, even if there's a planned sequel - The Dark Knight trilogy and the MCU did it right. It's okay to leave a question or two out in the air - It's not ok to make a movie that asks an SAT's worth of questions and then answers fuck all. BvS is just a big pile of bait.

If this helps clarify, there was story and such buried in BvS that could have worked. However the cinematic framing, poor editing and god awful dark filter harmed the film so much that whatever plot was there was lost beneath all that crap. It could have been better, with a better cut, there could have been more coherency but it would need to take the entire film back to the post-production and recut it, drop the filters and get someone in there who could actually frame the story correctly.
I don't even think the R-rated cut can fix it, unless they decide to spend a lot of money retooling the movie. At this point they should just concentrate on making the next films more coherent and for fucks sake hire an editor worth his/her salt.

 

[Ira Levinas]

for fucks sake hire an editor worth his/her salt.

You are talking about the order of the shots?
Because that is what an editor does.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

for fucks sake hire an editor worth his/her salt.

You are talking about the order of the shots?
Because that is what an editor does.

If you want to be reductive, yes that is essentially what they do. However the scope is much larger than that. The argument I'm making is that the way the film is cut is amateur at best with no establishing shots, no visual narrative to frame events. Just poor cuts all around from one scene to the next. Time is hard to deduce from the cuts as well. An editor is responsible for piecing the film together and making it at least coherent. The people who edited this film did not do that well at all, whether it was studio or directorial interference or just shitty work from post-production teams, doesn't matter. The editors are responsible for the final film cut and BvS was one of the most poorly edited films I've ever seen with Man of Steel right behind it.

 

[Ira Levinas]

You are talking about the order of the shots?
Because that is what an editor does.

If you want to be reductive, yes that is essentially what they do. However the scope is much larger than that. The argument I'm making is that the way the film is cut is amateur at best with no establishing shots, no visual narrative to frame events. Just poor cuts all around from one scene to the next. Time is hard to deduce from the cuts as well. An editor is responsible for piecing the film together and making it at least coherent. The people who edited this film did not do that well at all, whether it was studio or directorial interference or just shitty work from post-production teams, doesn't matter. The editors are responsible for the final film cut and BvS was one of the most poorly edited films I've ever seen with Man of Steel right behind it.

I don't have images to prove it, but I recall that the scenes of the beach, the desert, Bruce's vision, the congress (both outside and inside), Lex house, Bruce house, the batcave, and the chase, all have establishing shots.
Just an example.

I don't want you to think good about this movie, but I don't feel that is what really bothered you.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

I don't have images to prove it, but I recall that the scenes of the beach, the desert, Bruce's vision, the congress (both outside and inside), Lex house, Bruce house, the batcave, and the chase, all have establishing shots.
Just an example.

I don't want you to think good about this movie, but I don't feel that is what really bothered you.

You can feel all you want. However, there's a lot I liked about the movie, some things that others didn't. Like Luthor Jr., I loved his performance because I didn't see him as Lex, but rather the overprivileged and socially inept son of a ruthless businessman. I thought Affleck was a great Batman, and I'm not as up in arms over the portrayal of Superman. I just feel that the way the themes are framed, and the way the film lacks shots that help foster continuity between scenes is in part the reason it's a poor film overall. There's other factors too that make the film less than stellar, I just chose the poor editing and overuse of dark filters as my main points of contention because they're the pieces that stand out the most to me.
There are many things that could have worked, but the overall post-production faults harmed the movie irreparably. I've seen Uwe Boll films that have better post-production. (not talking special effects, just the basic elements that make a good film).

 

[Ira Levinas]

Like Luthor Jr., I loved his performance because I didn't see him as Lex, but rather the overprivileged and socially inept son of a ruthless businessman.

Nice, me too.

 

[Jux]

DC needs to stop embarrassing itself and just quit before they bankrupt themselves. Garbage people at the top pushing garbage ideas and making them into garbage movies.

 

[Saltyk]

Yes, I imagine it would be hard being a fan of a bloated, nigh incoherent mess of a movie with maybe 30 cumulative seconds of decent action in it.

If DC want to establish their own distinct cinematic look and tone that marks them as something more than a me-too exercise frantically clutching at the coat tails of Marvel's superior offerings then they might want to start by just producing some solidly constructed films.

Pretty much this. Civil War is everything that BvS should have been. I'd have to agree with an opinion I read earlier today.

After watching BvS, people argue who would win. After watching Civil War, people argue who was right.

 

[fezzthemonk]

I've always thought that they should adapt their side/ what if stories to film instead of this grim dark crap. I would love to see Superman: Red Son or Batman Hush brought to life. We already get what these characters are about.

 

[Misterian]

Can't say I blame anyone for having sour viewpoints on DC lately, though personally, I'm starting to consider myself quite a DC fan as of late.

Before you ask, I've been mostly steering clear of this DC Cinematic Universe because I've found it too grimdark for my tastes. Heck, the only films I've watched in the DC Cinematic Universe are Batman Begins and the Dark Knight, and the only upcoming movie to catch my interest is Suicide Squad, if only because that film clearly isn't taking itself too seriously.

Give me Christopher Reeve Superman over Man of Steel anyday.

A;so, when it comes to comics, I aim to avoid New 52 (though if Rebirth proves more upbeat and brings back what New 52 took away, I'll consider reading issues from that) and Look for good comics that are Post-Crisis and Pre-Flashpoint, which I hear was the time DC was hitting its stride.

Also, I found a new addiction in playing DC Universe Online, which I found alot of fun and I found it mostly avoids any of the changes New 52 brought on.

Speaking of video games, we still have the Batman Arkham games and Scribblenauts Unmasked, which are some of the better DC games out there. Heck, I read the Scribblenauts Unmasked comic series, which I thought was alot of fun.

And need I remind you people of the DC Animated universe? with Paul Dini writing some of the best superhero shows to ever grace TV? with stars like Kevin Conroy, Mark Hamil, and George Newbern leading their voices?

My point is, I actually it can be pretty easy to be a DC Fan, but like any franchise as large and expansions as the DC Universe, all you need to do is look out for what's good and avoid what you think is bad.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

I'm sure that was the intention, but they failed miserably. Things need to be resolved in a movie, even if there's a planned sequel - The Dark Knight trilogy and the MCU did it right. It's okay to leave a question or two out in the air - It's not ok to make a movie that asks an SAT's worth of questions and then answers fuck all. BvS is just a big pile of bait.

It didn't fail anything. The only point which I'd say should have been canned was the sequence with the Flash. The rest of it was appropriate. It was building plot for the Justice League and Darkseid's arrival.

But even then, the scene with the Flash has triggered quite a bit of conversation between me and other people, about what Flash was actually talking about. It probably has for quite a few other people as well. So the scene found purpose within the movie.

BvS was a good movie. A lot of the hate I disregard as bandwagon whining. Especially when people say that BvS should be like Civil War. Civil War suffered from all of the same issues that BvS did, and then a few more.

If it makes your life better to think anyone with an opposing opinion is a mindless sheep, just parroting whatever a bunch of whiners said before they saw the movie, then go for it. Have fun.

 

[Christian Neihart]

DC Comics: We have no respect for our Heroes and our fans. Except for Batman.

 

[Zen Bard]

Marvel has done two things right:

The first was the creation of Marvel Studios as an independant entity responsible for all of their movie, TV and streaming properties. It's still very closely tied in with the source material and is a great way to preserve the integrity of the characters. It's not perfect, but there's still decent sense of cohesiveness between the MCU and the comics.

The second is dusting off third- and fourth-tier comic characters and letting amazing writers like Warren Ellis get a crack at them. His versions of Moon Knight and Karnak are incredible! They're not exactly "reboots" so much as just different a perspective.

On the other hand, everything DC does just seems to reek of a "me-too" cash grab.

Nolan's Dark Knight series was a success so DC wants to make everything "grim and gritty" without considering if that tone actually suits the character.

They continually reboot characters in ways that none of the fanbase has ever indicated wanting. The New 52 Lobo and Constantine are great examples of that.

I just get a sense there's no long term strategy and that they're constantly playing catch up.

Their TV shows are doing well, though. So maybe they'll figure out what working there and translate to the comics and movies.

 

[Cruickshank]

snip

Honestly this is the first time ive ever seen someone express the opinion that they want another Man of Steel movie.
id make some smartass joke regarding your sanity but honestly, that movie was just plain bad.
saying Snyder isnt Michael Bay is a fair point, Bay's transformer movies were at least enjoyable to watch.

 

[Adamantium93]

I actually agree on the spirit of your points. I still think MoS is not a good movie (though not terrible) and I think BvS is trash, but I feel like BvS had a lot of great ideas (and some bad ones) and the actors really brought their A game. Its problem was that it was bloated, overstuffed. Its right there in the title: Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice. Its trying to be a Batman reboot, a Man of Steel sequel, and a Justice League set up film. Had it chosen one of those, it could have been great. But it tried doing all three and ended up giving none of them their due.

The whole film reeks of executive meddling. Like someone called up Snyder et al and said "Yeah, Man of Steel didn't do very well. Batman sells. Put Batman in the next one." And it changed from Man of Steel 2 to Batman v. Superman. Then, a little down the line, they called again and said, "Yeah, Marvel's running away with the shared universe thing, so BvS also needs to set up a Justice League film." Look carefully, and you can practically see the stitches where the Joker was cut out of this thing. Now, Suicide Squad looks more and more like "We can be Deadpool/Guardians of the Galaxy too! Look how wacky Harley is! Do you hear that pop music?"

The problem, however, isn't in the reviewers or the fans who criticized MoS, nor is it really Snyder's fault. The problem is DC/Warner Bros. They don't trust their directors to make good films, they don't trust the franchises they're making them from, and they don't trust fans to go watch the films unless Batman's in them and they can say "Look, we can be like Marvel too!"

If you told someone ten years ago that Marvel would find success with Thor, Ant Man, and the bloody Guardians of the Galaxy, they would have said you were crazy. But Marvel trusted their directors to bring out the spirit of the source material, trusted that source material to be strong enough that people would like it, and trusted their fans would go to theaters to watch the films. They didn't try to have "Hulk v. Iron Man: Birth of Vengeance" or something like that to introduce people to the MCU and the Avengers.

DC needs to stop trying to play catch up to Marvel and start doing their own thing. If they keep chasing Marvel's tail, they are going to keep falling on their face. DC did their own thing with Flash and Arrow and (while I won't say either series is perfect), they've had success there. A good (or even decent) second film could have helped this franchise. Heck, look at X-Men, which didn't have a decent installment until First Class and is now going very strong. But DC panicked when Man of Steel had middling reviews (not even awful; middling) and ended up sabotaging their own franchise.