Its hard being a DC fan. (Rant)

[Cheesy Goodness]

Snip

Hey, I totally get what you're saying. I have always been mainly a Batman fan, and I hate seeing that character get trashed on by anybody. Truth be told, he was shoved into this movie for marketing reasons. He has made Warner Bros a boat load of money in the past. Man of Steel should have had a proper sequel to address the backlash and flesh out Superman more. I don't even think MOS was a bad movie, but I understand people's criticisms of that picture. The same goes for BvS.

I don't particularly like what Marvel/Disney offers in its movies. They have no tension or stakes in my opinion. The only one I really loved was Winter Solider. It is just a darn good film in its own right.

Batman v Superman didn't have a tonal issue in my mind; it had a coherence issue. It was too busy trying to layout so many things that it forgot to give clear motivations for anybody. While I loved Batfleck, I don't really feel like I got to "know" him. I didn't hate Eisnerberg's Lex Luthor, but I felt like he wasn't fleshed out enough either. Henry Cavill continues to get wasted with the screenplays they're giving him. Wonder Woman was cool in her brief appearance, but her solo film is coming soon to properly introduce her.

I don't know who's truly to blame or if this whole thing will crash and burn. I want these movies to work. Copying Marvel's formula is not the answer. I agree that it would be looked at as redundant. I still look forward to Suicide Squad and hope it get things back on track.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

Honestly I feel none of this would have happened if no one said anything bad about Man of Steel. If no one criticized Man of Steel we would have had a Man of Steel 2 and a stand alone Batman movie.

Not criticising Man of Steel is impossible. It's an awful movie, an awful Superman movie and an awful superhero movie. They made MoS the way they did because they wanted the grim and gritty look of Nolan's Batman, the *only* success they've enjoyed in recent years (not surprising since they're the only movies they even made, not including the Green Lantern which everyone will be best to forget ever happened). And it didn't work.

I just want my Zack Snyder DC movies because he has talent he knows how to make Comic Boook movies he proclaims he grew up reading comic books and I believe him and he makes action that is 10x better then any movie I have seen in theaters. And he is NOT MICHAEL BAY!!

You might, but almost everyone else with any taste whatsoever doesn't. Zack Snyder is a talentless filmmaker whose only great movie, Watchmen, was great because of the source material and cast. He makes shit films, Dawn of Justice was awful in every way...it looked awful, sounded awful, had awful pacing, awful storytelling, awful characters, no real plot and went on far too long. The best thing DC could do is get anyone else than Snyder to make an actual good film, and worry about Justice League later, years from now once they've established some characters and a larger, shared universe.

 

[Ira Levinas]

You're right. BVS only had 29 subplots as it is, should have went for the even 30

I don't buy that the movie was too complicated, many things happened, but most where one after another, and many where too simplified.
Im talking about give to one of the main characters some initiative instead of turning him into a puppet for the other characters.

 

[circularlogic88]

And now Civil War came out and of course people are saying this is how BvS should have been.

People want BvS to be like a movie which is even worse, and has even more plotholes than BvS.

Yeah, that's gotta be it...

 

[DefunctTheory]

And now Civil War came out and of course people are saying this is how BvS should have been.

People want BvS to be like a movie which is even worse, and has even more plotholes than BvS.

Yeah, that's gotta be it...

Pretty much. Bandwagoning is an effective thing. As soon as the first chunk of people say that it's a bad movie, the rest just kind of echo the opinion without actually looking at the content.

BvS is a pretty good movie. Most of the 'plot holes' which people list out for the movie are products of them just not paying attention.

As someone who went into Dawn of Justice of the full opinion that the critics were full of shit and it would be good, I disagree. BvS was bad, and the people who said it is bad aren't bandwagonning. It was filled not with plot holes (And I'm unaware of any large group of people really claiming it was), but with half explored subplots and questions that are never resolved because they can only do so much in a 153 minute long film.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

And now Civil War came out and of course people are saying this is how BvS should have been.

People want BvS to be like a movie which is even worse, and has even more plotholes than BvS.

Yeah, that's gotta be it...

Pretty much. Bandwagoning is an effective thing. As soon as the first chunk of people say that it's a bad movie, the rest just kind of echo the opinion without actually looking at the content.

BvS is a pretty good movie. Most of the 'plot holes' which people list out for the movie are products of them just not paying attention.

As someone who went into Dawn of Justice of the full opinion that the critics were full of shit and it would be good, I disagree. BvS was bad, and the people who said it is bad aren't bandwagonning. It was filled not with plot holes (And I'm unaware of any large group of people really claiming it was), but with half explored subplots and questions that are never resolved because they can only do so much in a 153 minute long film.

No, the subplots are there to build up to the Justice League movie.

I'm sure that was the intention, but they failed miserably. Things need to be resolved in a movie, even if there's a planned sequel - The Dark Knight trilogy and the MCU did it right. It's okay to leave a question or two out in the air - It's not ok to make a movie that asks an SAT's worth of questions and then answers fuck all. BvS is just a big pile of bait.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

Spoiler

And now Civil War came out and of course people are saying this is how BvS should have been.

People want BvS to be like a movie which is even worse, and has even more plotholes than BvS.

Yeah, that's gotta be it...

Pretty much. Bandwagoning is an effective thing. As soon as the first chunk of people say that it's a bad movie, the rest just kind of echo the opinion without actually looking at the content.

BvS is a pretty good movie. Most of the 'plot holes' which people list out for the movie are products of them just not paying attention.

As someone who went into Dawn of Justice of the full opinion that the critics were full of shit and it would be good, I disagree. BvS was bad, and the people who said it is bad aren't bandwagonning. It was filled not with plot holes (And I'm unaware of any large group of people really claiming it was), but with half explored subplots and questions that are never resolved because they can only do so much in a 153 minute long film.

No, the subplots are there to build up to the Justice League movie.

I'm sure that was the intention, but they failed miserably. Things need to be resolved in a movie, even if there's a planned sequel - The Dark Knight trilogy and the MCU did it right. It's okay to leave a question or two out in the air - It's not ok to make a movie that asks an SAT's worth of questions and then answers fuck all. BvS is just a big pile of bait.

If this helps clarify, there was story and such buried in BvS that could have worked. However the cinematic framing, poor editing and god awful dark filter harmed the film so much that whatever plot was there was lost beneath all that crap. It could have been better, with a better cut, there could have been more coherency but it would need to take the entire film back to the post-production and recut it, drop the filters and get someone in there who could actually frame the story correctly.
I don't even think the R-rated cut can fix it, unless they decide to spend a lot of money retooling the movie. At this point they should just concentrate on making the next films more coherent and for fucks sake hire an editor worth his/her salt.

 

[Ira Levinas]

for fucks sake hire an editor worth his/her salt.

You are talking about the order of the shots?
Because that is what an editor does.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

for fucks sake hire an editor worth his/her salt.

You are talking about the order of the shots?
Because that is what an editor does.

If you want to be reductive, yes that is essentially what they do. However the scope is much larger than that. The argument I'm making is that the way the film is cut is amateur at best with no establishing shots, no visual narrative to frame events. Just poor cuts all around from one scene to the next. Time is hard to deduce from the cuts as well. An editor is responsible for piecing the film together and making it at least coherent. The people who edited this film did not do that well at all, whether it was studio or directorial interference or just shitty work from post-production teams, doesn't matter. The editors are responsible for the final film cut and BvS was one of the most poorly edited films I've ever seen with Man of Steel right behind it.

 

[Ira Levinas]

You are talking about the order of the shots?
Because that is what an editor does.

If you want to be reductive, yes that is essentially what they do. However the scope is much larger than that. The argument I'm making is that the way the film is cut is amateur at best with no establishing shots, no visual narrative to frame events. Just poor cuts all around from one scene to the next. Time is hard to deduce from the cuts as well. An editor is responsible for piecing the film together and making it at least coherent. The people who edited this film did not do that well at all, whether it was studio or directorial interference or just shitty work from post-production teams, doesn't matter. The editors are responsible for the final film cut and BvS was one of the most poorly edited films I've ever seen with Man of Steel right behind it.

I don't have images to prove it, but I recall that the scenes of the beach, the desert, Bruce's vision, the congress (both outside and inside), Lex house, Bruce house, the batcave, and the chase, all have establishing shots.
Just an example.

I don't want you to think good about this movie, but I don't feel that is what really bothered you.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

I don't have images to prove it, but I recall that the scenes of the beach, the desert, Bruce's vision, the congress (both outside and inside), Lex house, Bruce house, the batcave, and the chase, all have establishing shots.
Just an example.

I don't want you to think good about this movie, but I don't feel that is what really bothered you.

You can feel all you want. However, there's a lot I liked about the movie, some things that others didn't. Like Luthor Jr., I loved his performance because I didn't see him as Lex, but rather the overprivileged and socially inept son of a ruthless businessman. I thought Affleck was a great Batman, and I'm not as up in arms over the portrayal of Superman. I just feel that the way the themes are framed, and the way the film lacks shots that help foster continuity between scenes is in part the reason it's a poor film overall. There's other factors too that make the film less than stellar, I just chose the poor editing and overuse of dark filters as my main points of contention because they're the pieces that stand out the most to me.
There are many things that could have worked, but the overall post-production faults harmed the movie irreparably. I've seen Uwe Boll films that have better post-production. (not talking special effects, just the basic elements that make a good film).

 

[Ira Levinas]

Like Luthor Jr., I loved his performance because I didn't see him as Lex, but rather the overprivileged and socially inept son of a ruthless businessman.

Nice, me too.

 

[Jux]

DC needs to stop embarrassing itself and just quit before they bankrupt themselves. Garbage people at the top pushing garbage ideas and making them into garbage movies.

 

[Saltyk]

Yes, I imagine it would be hard being a fan of a bloated, nigh incoherent mess of a movie with maybe 30 cumulative seconds of decent action in it.

If DC want to establish their own distinct cinematic look and tone that marks them as something more than a me-too exercise frantically clutching at the coat tails of Marvel's superior offerings then they might want to start by just producing some solidly constructed films.

Pretty much this. Civil War is everything that BvS should have been. I'd have to agree with an opinion I read earlier today.

After watching BvS, people argue who would win. After watching Civil War, people argue who was right.

 

[fezzthemonk]

I've always thought that they should adapt their side/ what if stories to film instead of this grim dark crap. I would love to see Superman: Red Son or Batman Hush brought to life. We already get what these characters are about.

 

[Misterian]

Can't say I blame anyone for having sour viewpoints on DC lately, though personally, I'm starting to consider myself quite a DC fan as of late.

Before you ask, I've been mostly steering clear of this DC Cinematic Universe because I've found it too grimdark for my tastes. Heck, the only films I've watched in the DC Cinematic Universe are Batman Begins and the Dark Knight, and the only upcoming movie to catch my interest is Suicide Squad, if only because that film clearly isn't taking itself too seriously.

Give me Christopher Reeve Superman over Man of Steel anyday.

A;so, when it comes to comics, I aim to avoid New 52 (though if Rebirth proves more upbeat and brings back what New 52 took away, I'll consider reading issues from that) and Look for good comics that are Post-Crisis and Pre-Flashpoint, which I hear was the time DC was hitting its stride.

Also, I found a new addiction in playing DC Universe Online, which I found alot of fun and I found it mostly avoids any of the changes New 52 brought on.

Speaking of video games, we still have the Batman Arkham games and Scribblenauts Unmasked, which are some of the better DC games out there. Heck, I read the Scribblenauts Unmasked comic series, which I thought was alot of fun.

And need I remind you people of the DC Animated universe? with Paul Dini writing some of the best superhero shows to ever grace TV? with stars like Kevin Conroy, Mark Hamil, and George Newbern leading their voices?

My point is, I actually it can be pretty easy to be a DC Fan, but like any franchise as large and expansions as the DC Universe, all you need to do is look out for what's good and avoid what you think is bad.