It's only sexist when Men do it?

William Keller

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brandon237 said:
William Keller said:
Don't you remember the "Boys are stupid..." T-shirts a few years ago? Everyone thought it was funny. What if those T-shirts were aimed against women?

No_Remainders said:
...there would be RIOTS.
3: I will give you that one, this is extremism (to say the least) and extremists tend to screw a lot up...

4: People in general, the whole of society tend to accept sexism a lot more easily when it is directed at men, but very quickly snap when it turns the other way. Equality is about being the same in the eyes of the law and society, not superior, not about getting better treatment. Yes, people are the problem, but the general attitude of said problematic people is to let this slide by when it is directed against men.

5: We have had a thread on almost every subject not relating to current news at least 3 times. But Necroing is not the way to go about it.

Sorry this is so... damn impolite, long day.
And I do realise that the whole people are hypocrites statement has probably caught me at least once in this post.
I agree that such behaviours are extremist in nature. Unfortunately, there are "gender extremists" on both sexes, constantly trying to insult or ridicule the other.

Let me make myself clear here. I am not saying that only women are being sexist while not being treated as such. Sexists ARE extremists, who try to project their psychological issues on other people, in this case members of the opposite sex.

Yet, unfortunately, I have observed that while some women do have a sexist behaviour/attitude against men, they are treated much lightly in comparison to men, simply because the general belief is that men are "strong" and do not get affected by such things.

The aforementioned statement is undoubtedly sexist. There are strong people, not men or women exclusively. I get easily hurt by negative remarks about me being a man (as hurt as many other men get), yet the rule is that a woman can insult any man as hard and as long she wishes, simply because men are "strong".

Well, news flash: men are people too. They have feelings. They aren't simple sex/war machines. Many of them get severely damaged by women, as many women get severely damaged by men.

So, why don't we put all our differences behind us and accept each other? I can't change the fact that women in some countries are treated like property, but I do behave nicely around women and I think I don't deserve being treated like dirt for mistakes of other men.
 

Brandon237

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Dags90 said:
brandon237 said:
4: People in general, the whole of society tend to accept sexism a lot more easily when it is directed at men, but very quickly snap when it turns the other way. Equality is about being the same in the eyes of the law and society, not superior, not about getting better treatment. Yes, people are the problem, but the general attitude of said problematic people is to let this slide by when it is directed against men.
This forum tends to do the opposite. It latches on to every "man bites dog" story that makes headlines about gender equality. There was a thread about a Russian man who was held against his will and raped by a woman, but I've never once seen a thread about the horrors experienced by the the millions of women and girls who are trafficked for the purpose of sexual slavery worldwide.

I would say it's generally the opposite. The moment a man is attacked sexually by a woman, it's front line news because it's so different from the norm.
But the attacker in question is treated differently, as is the victim. It is considered as funny by so many more people when a man is the victim (NOT just referring to that case in Russia).
Many studies say that domestic violence happens relatively often and quite severely against men. But cultural stereotypes and a rather flawed legal and social world mean that this does not often get either reported or helped. Hell many shows go so far as to make comedy out of such situations, fine in its own right, but the same comedy would never happen with a woman on the receiving end of things. It is just the public idea of such things that makes society a bit biased and sexist.

As for the male abuse:
http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/abusiverelationships/a/male_abuse.htm
http://www.batteredmen.com/

And a nice little passage from the wikipedia article: Both men and women have been arrested and convicted of assaulting their partners in both heterosexual and homosexual relationships. The bulk of these arrests have been men being arrested for assaulting women. However, in the case of reciprocal violence, frequently only the male perpetrator is arrested. Determining how many instances of domestic violence actually involve male victims is difficult. Male domestic violence victims may be reluctant to get help for a number of reasons. Another study has demonstrated a high degree of acceptance by women of aggression against men.

I understand that it happens to women more often by many reliable accounts, but that does not justify the huge bias in society. Especially that part about only the men getting arrested in reciprocated violence, that stings of injustice.
 

Brandon237

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William Keller said:
brandon237 said:
William Keller said:
Don't you remember the "Boys are stupid..." T-shirts a few years ago? Everyone thought it was funny. What if those T-shirts were aimed against women?

No_Remainders said:
...there would be RIOTS.
3: I will give you that one, this is extremism (to say the least) and extremists tend to screw a lot up...

4: People in general, the whole of society tend to accept sexism a lot more easily when it is directed at men, but very quickly snap when it turns the other way. Equality is about being the same in the eyes of the law and society, not superior, not about getting better treatment. Yes, people are the problem, but the general attitude of said problematic people is to let this slide by when it is directed against men.

5: We have had a thread on almost every subject not relating to current news at least 3 times. But Necroing is not the way to go about it.

Sorry this is so... damn impolite, long day.
And I do realise that the whole people are hypocrites statement has probably caught me at least once in this post.
I agree that such behaviours are extremist in nature. Unfortunately, there are "gender extremists" on both sexes, constantly trying to insult or ridicule the other.

Let me make myself clear here. I am not saying that only women are being sexist while not being treated as such. Sexists ARE extremists, who try to project their psychological issues on other people, in this case members of the opposite sex.

Yet, unfortunately, I have observed that while some women do have a sexist behaviour/attitude against men, they are treated much lightly in comparison to men, simply because the general belief is that men are "strong" and do not get affected by such things.

The aforementioned statement is undoubtedly sexist. There are strong people, not men or women exclusively. I get easily hurt by negative remarks about me being a man (as hurt as many other men get), yet the rule is that a woman can insult any man as hard and as long she wishes, simply because men are "strong".

Well, news flash: men are people too. They have feelings. They aren't simple sex/war machines. Many of them get severely damaged by women, as many women get severely damaged by men.

So, why don't we put all our differences behind us and accept each other? I can't change the fact that women in some countries are treated like property, but I do behave nicely around women and I think I don't deserve being treated like dirt for mistakes of other men.
Thank you, that was excellent.
And welcome to the Escapist :)

Very good points there, it is quite strange, both my parents are incredibly sexist O.O When they are driving the things they say... while the other is in the car mind you. It gets quite hectic.

On these threads I generally tend to take a defensive stance, I hope it doesn't come off as sexist in this case, because that would defeat the purpose of striving for actual equality, wouldn't it?

I think people just need to realise that we are all people. If job interviews were done using a voice-muffler through an opaque screen so you could only hear qualifications and not judge anything on race or sex, it would be much more just.

Stereotypes need to burn in hell, I think. Would be better for all.

An interesting story on both men and women being abusive: My dad used to be a part of the ambulance service, and he arrived at a house one day after a husband and wife had been in a fight. The wife saw them at the door, an iron-shaped burn-mark on her chest. They got her onto the ambulance. They went inside the house and sitting in front of the TV was a man, the husband, with a frying-pan lodged in his skull. it had just gone between the two lobes of the brain, he was lucky to be alive.
The husband and wife argued and fought in the ambulance on the way to the hospital -.-

That last paragraph is good. I am keeping it. Very good and very true indeed.
 

Adzma

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Men don't have rights anymore. It's tragic but true. It goes even further for white males. Society seems to have this idea that because white males of the past were stuck up racist arseholes, those of us from the current generation have to atone for their BS, and are allowed to be slandered.
 

William Keller

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brandon237 said:
Thank you, that was excellent.
And welcome to the Escapist :)
You're welcome, mate.

brandon237 said:
I think people just need to realise that we are all people. If job interviews were done using a voice-muffler through an opaque screen so you could only hear qualifications and not judge anything on race or sex, it would be much more just.
What is mentioned here by brandon237 is a very good opportunity to explain the different aspects of sexism.

Officially, sexism is degratory behaviour of a member of one gender towards the other (gender, that is). This term, however, is relatively open to interpretation.

The common mistake many people make is that they consider sexism to be solely the insulting and demeaning attitude of men towards women. However, there are many women that are sexist too. For example, when I was in high school I got in quite a few arguments with my (female) teachers over the rights of men and women and gender equality, simply because they thought that all men are PIGS and that all women are VICTIMS of men. Now *this* is sexism.

Secondly, sexism is NOT ONLY insulting the other gender, but degrading it in general, which can be accomplished in many ways. Take for example the all too familiar situation mentioned by Brandon: women trying to sexually stimulate their male interviewer in order to take the job. In my opinion, this is sexism as well, because, deep inside them, such women (or men for that matter, don't misunderstand me) think in the pattern that follows: "men are pigs that can only understand and respond to sex". This is very similar to some men's opinions on "women being nothing but sex toys". In both situations, one of the two genders' dignity is being reduced to a level of animalistic, protogenous behaviour.

What about men who would die for women? What about women that are pioneering scientists, explorers and thinkers? What about men who are poets and artists? Have they no souls? Are they just "pigs" or "sluts"?

[Team Fortress 2 Heavy's Voice] NO!
Because every human being is UNIQUE.

So...
brandon237 said:
Stereotypes need to burn in hell, I think. Would be better for all.
Amen, brother!
 

DementedSheep

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Well I don?t think you should dismiss feminism because these particular woman are being idiots and are talking shit on a show. There is a difference between feminism and misandry. Woman can be sexist pricks too. There is gender discrimination against both guys and girls just like there is racism against every race and it?s not only straight people who are bigots. I?m sick of always being perceived as a fragile victim who couldn?t possibly have done anything and many of my guy friends are sick of always being perceived as villains who think with their dick. The whole mentality of guys are suppose to be strong and are girls are suppose to be weak its must be the guy who is abusive or the guy who dragged the girl along when breaking the law or if a woman kills a man he must have done something rather than her just being a crazy *****.
I have a friend who wants to be a preschool teacher (I don?t know why, I can?t stand kids) but he is having a really hard time because he is a guy. it?s also hard for a male teacher to do simple things like say try and comfort or hug a young girl who?s crying because people for some reason seem to think he must be sexually abusing her. It?s stupid and its needs to stop.

renegade7 said:
Feminism =/= equal rights. Not that the root of the word is 'female' not 'equality'
Feminism was about equal rights. Some take it further but that?s a bastardisation of what it was meant to be. It?s just that the focus is on woman because the movement started when woman were heavily oppressed and it was much much more of a problem for woman than it was men.
 

Brandon237

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William Keller said:
You're welcome, mate.

What is mentioned here by brandon237 is a very good opportunity to explain the different aspects of sexism.

Officially, sexism is degratory behaviour of a member of one gender towards the other (gender, that is). This term, however, is relatively open to interpretation.

The common mistake many people make is that they consider sexism to be solely the insulting and demeaning attitude of men towards women. However, there are many women that are sexist too. For example, when I was in high school I got in quite a few arguments with my (female) teachers over the rights of men and women and gender equality, simply because they thought that all men are PIGS and that all women are VICTIMS of men. Now *this* is sexism.
Teachers with those attitudes? I can see a recurring problem here, if children are brought up in a culture of these double standards (as indeed they are) then said double standards are carried down again and again. And parents too, damn, If one listened to my parents rant about why the other sex should not drive cars... You could not deny that it was sexism, both ways. People also get so used to an idea that when a logical argument or idea comes along that should sway them, they refuse to acknowledge it as they are so used to their previous notions.

Secondly, sexism is NOT ONLY insulting the other gender, but degrading it in general, which can be accomplished in many ways. Take for example the all too familiar situation mentioned by Brandon: women trying to sexually stimulate their male interviewer in order to take the job. In my opinion, this is sexism as well, because, deep inside them, such women (or men for that matter, don't misunderstand me) think in the pattern that follows: "men are pigs that can only understand and respond to sex". This is very similar to some men's opinions on "women being nothing but sex toys". In both situations, one of the two genders' dignity is being reduced to a level of animalistic, protogenous behaviour.

What about men who would die for women? What about women that are pioneering scientists, explorers and thinkers? What about men who are poets and artists? Have they no souls? Are they just "pigs" or "sluts"?

[Team Fortress 2 Heavy's Voice] NO!
Because every human being is UNIQUE.
Unfortunately a good portion of social and work interaction does change because of gender. In my country that is taken very literally: We have an "affirmative action" policy here, now after apartheid, it kinda makes sense, but it is also the complete wrong way to go about this. The system goes according to race first, in any major company or government business, the lighter your skin, the lower down the list your application goes, by law. Within race, women's applications go above men's. And the pass levels for university courses are lower for people of colour. The strange thing: They don't even benefit! Recently a group of black students took a university to court! They said that the policy was racist and insulting to them as it implied they were less intelligent. Many individuals, regardless of age, race, gender, sexual orientation et cetera will strive for true equality and think about these things, but most of society, the rest of the bunch with the "sheep instinct" tend to shy away from reform and perpetuate stereotypes and cultural bias at every turn.

What really needs to happen is for people to be educated on these things, as part of schooling they should be forced to try and take a neutral outlook on these things, even if only for a few assignments, and open discussion and education should be encouraged, but the masses, they do not like this idea... open discussion has never been the schooling system's strong point :(
 

Rage4Kon

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Sizzle Montyjing said:
Is this what it's like?
Is it different?
What do you think?
I beleive he makes some good points, although some of its over the top.

EDIT: And yes, he does swear FAR too much in this video, and yes, Sharon Osbourne should cut off her tongue for the inexcusible bile that came out of her mouth.
Off Topic: As soon as I saw this video I wanted to put it on the escapist forums. Looks like you beat me to it. :D
 

Sizzle Montyjing

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Rage4Kon said:
Ninja... AWAY!!!
Adzma said:
Men don't have rights anymore. It's tragic but true. It goes even further for white males. Society seems to have this idea that because white males of the past were stuck up racist arseholes, those of us from the current generation have to atone for their BS, and are allowed to be slandered.
That is why we need a time machine.
I do find it really unfair when i get punished for what my ancestors did, it just seems a little unfair.
 

William Keller

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brandon237 said:
Unfortunately a good portion of social and work interaction does change because of gender. In my country that is taken very literally: We have an "affirmative action" policy here, now after apartheid, it kinda makes sense, but it is also the complete wrong way to go about this. The system goes according to race first, in any major company or government business, the lighter your skin, the lower down the list your application goes, by law. Within race, women's applications go above men's. And the pass levels for university courses are lower for people of colour. The strange thing: They don't even benefit! Recently a group of black students took a university to court! They said that the policy was racist and insulting to them as it implied they were less intelligent. Many individuals, regardless of age, race, gender, sexual orientation et cetera will strive for true equality and think about these things, but most of society, the rest of the bunch with the "sheep instinct" tend to shy away from reform and perpetuate stereotypes and cultural bias at every turn.

What really needs to happen is for people to be educated on these things, as part of schooling they should be forced to try and take a neutral outlook on these things, even if only for a few assignments, and open discussion and education should be encouraged, but the masses, they do not like this idea... open discussion has never been the schooling system's strong point :(
Tell me about it... in Greece, it is a man's DUTY (meaning it's compulsory) to serve in the army for an 18-month period RIGHT AFTER you graduate from high school.
When I finally started my university studies, women who had the same age as me were a year and a half CLOSER to finishing theirs.
Which also means, they'll be a year and a half CLOSER TO FINDING A BLOODY JOB than me.

Anyway, enough with Greece's antiquitated drafting system.

I have to congratulate you for stressing perhaps the most important point in solving all gender/sexism issues: education. I am unaware of the situation in other countries, but in Greece, schools became mixed (both male and female students) in 1984! That's about thirty years earlier. It is this reason, I believe, that has resulted in the teachers' behaviour I mentioned earlier to be like that.

The most important thing here, is for both parties to fully understand what their role in nature is and how to become better at it. NO, I am NOT referring to a gender role, yet the role of humankind in general. For instance, my role (art, creation) is different than my friend's (science, discovery), and we're both male. One's role is based on one's personality, psychological traits and their intellectual habits: who they are, regardless of gender, is going to determine what they will want to do.

Unfortunately, most people either want to repress others (some men) or want to retaliate for past situations (some women). But, why, why, why can't we understand that only by the combination of our psyches can we achieve the vita aeterna. Anger and hatred are destructive forces that will only aid in inducing more pain and suffering; we should focus in building a better world for all of us instead.

Please, forgive me for the somewhat poetic last paragraph. My point is, in short, that it is not gender that makes us who we are. It is how we think, what we feel, what we wish for. Frankly, I don't care about such gender issues anymore. Back in high school, yep, I could have killed some of my idiotic teachers and classmates, but now I just don't care. As long as there are people who can fully understand that the two gender are equal, I think I'm going to be fine.
 

Brandon237

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William Keller said:
Tell me about it... in Greece, it is a man's DUTY (meaning it's compulsory) to serve in the army for an 18-month period RIGHT AFTER you graduate from high school.
When I finally started my university studies, women who had the same age as me were a year and a half CLOSER to finishing theirs.
Which also means, they'll be a year and a half CLOSER TO FINDING A BLOODY JOB than me.

Anyway, enough with Greece's antiquitated drafting system.

I have to congratulate you for stressing perhaps the most important point in solving all gender/sexism issues: education. I am unaware of the situation in other countries, but in Greece, schools became mixed (both male and female students) in 1984! That's about thirty years earlier. It is this reason, I believe, that has resulted in the teachers' behaviour I mentioned earlier to be like that.

The most important thing here, is for both parties to fully understand what their role in nature is and how to become better at it. NO, I am NOT referring to a gender role, yet the role of humankind in general. For instance, my role (art, creation) is different than my friend's (science, discovery), and we're both male. One's role is based on one's personality, psychological traits and their intellectual habits: who they are, regardless of gender, is going to determine what they will want to do.

Unfortunately, most people either want to repress others (some men) or want to retaliate for past situations (some women). But, why, why, why can't we understand that only by the combination of our psyches can we achieve the vita aeterna. Anger and hatred are destructive forces that will only aid in inducing more pain and suffering; we should focus in building a better world for all of us instead.

Please, forgive me for the somewhat poetic last paragraph. My point is, in short, that it is not gender that makes us who we are. It is how we think, what we feel, what we wish for. Frankly, I don't care about such gender issues anymore. Back in high school, yep, I could have killed some of my idiotic teachers and classmates, but now I just don't care. As long as there are people who can fully understand that the two gender are equal, I think I'm going to be fine.
Oh, yikes, that is wrong on so many levels. If I was born into a country with forced conscription I would demand that my parents got me moved, or I would become and active opposer, I cannot stand such things! And here it was the same with race until the 90s, and the effects of it are shocking. Separation like that is just wrong, and is going to screw up your country's social side more than a little bit. And delaying your job progress is just wrong, ideally you want people in tertiary education as much and as soon as possible too!

Proper education and social exposure can, with time, fix most of any country's problems, People need to be taught how to handle the world, and they need exposure to each other, it is that simple.

It would be nice if people actually listened to that logic, and the world is getting better, slowly, but surely, getting there. We just have to wait, It will turn around, but to speed that up practically people need to accept and move on, to hinge on the transgressions of the past and not the problems and potentials of the future is only going to keep you in the past of violence and oppression, of petty racism, sexism et cetera.

It's cool, and the point was brought across nicely, so no harm done. There are some people, now we just need their numbers to grow, and for sensible people to take charge a little.
 

Nudu

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xXxJessicaxXx said:
You know what's getting more annoying than feminazi's? Men who think they are hard done by. Really guys? Hundreds of years of supremacy and you are moaning if some vacuous tarts on a crappy talk show laugh at you.

Come on.

Everyone has different opinions on things why do the rest of women have to be grouped in with these brainless idiots. It's like saying all men are douchebags because of Jersey Shore. Assault and mutilation is repugnant, end of story.
I have a problem with this post. I don't care what's been going on for hundreds of years, because it's not hundreds of years ago. I am living now. What may hypothetically have happened to another person with the same biological traits as me hundreds of years ago doesn't concern me. I'm not ok with being held responsible for what other people have done in the past.
 

sgwee

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I like how that girl from The Big Brain Theory had a conscience even sitting next to those other bile 'ladies' I have a new found love for her. She knew right away this was a double standard you go girl!
 

Moonlight Butterfly

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Nudu said:
xXxJessicaxXx said:
You know what's getting more annoying than feminazi's? Men who think they are hard done by. Really guys? Hundreds of years of supremacy and you are moaning if some vacuous tarts on a crappy talk show laugh at you.

Come on.

Everyone has different opinions on things why do the rest of women have to be grouped in with these brainless idiots. It's like saying all men are douchebags because of Jersey Shore. Assault and mutilation is repugnant, end of story.
I have a problem with this post. I don't care what's been going on for hundreds of years, because it's not hundreds of years ago. I am living now. What may hypothetically have happened to another person with the same biological traits as me hundreds of years ago doesn't concern me. I'm not ok with being held responsible for what other people have done in the past.
Why do people take it so literally?

The weight of history is in favour of men thats why people don't find it as offensive to make these jokes about guys. It doesn't make it any less wrong but thats why society reacts the way it does.
 

Kuroneko97

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orangeban said:
Kuroneko97 said:
Get mad at me for this, but I don't think there should be a law against hitting women. Yes, I know women are generally weaker than men, but then why is there no law about THEM hitting men? I know it's it harder for them to do so, but what about those women who rape men? What, do they say THEY were the ones raped?
But at least Britain and the USA and I presume most other developed countries don't have laws saying you can't hit women but can hit men. Instead they have laws against assault, which applies to all genders. Same for rape.
If I'm correct, there may not be a law against hitting women, but in USA society you're given more leniency if you're a woman and you hit a man, regardless of the circumstances.
 

GideonB

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Double standards
They suck

So yeah, sexism happens
But ya know, if your a good enough person you won't be a sexist dick, you'll just be a nice person
 

Yamato-san

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I hated this kind of shit growing up. Anytime I got on bad terms with female classmates (at the risk of shifting blame in a two-sided conflict, I was never much of a socializer so they'd always be the one to instigate it), any threats of hitting her (regardless of whether or not she already hit me) would prompt a teacher or one of my parents to feed some bullshit about how I shouldn't, as that would automatically make me worse than her just because I'm the guy in the conflict. -_- Look, I got nothing against women, I'm all for their rights and stuff, but at some point, society needs to realize that this shit needs to stop. If it doesn't, we're only gonna end up going to the opposite extreme rather than having "equality".
 

KaiusCormere

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Sexual Harassment Panda said:
If you actually examine why double standards exist, you understand why.

Being white and male is hugely advantageous, in ways that a white male(like myself)is never likely to fully understand.
I don't really think it is though in 2011, in America. I've never had doors open for me because I'm white or male. I've had bosses and co-workers who were black, bosses and co-workers who were women. And as far as I know, they didn't have to have any sort of preferential treatment to get where they got. Anyone with a shred of decency or integrity isn't racist or sexist. I do get angry when I hear women say "All men are...", though. I don't go around insulting them!
 

pppppppppppppppppp

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Eh, double standards run amuck in all societies, and many times double standards apply to both genders. (however oxymoronic that sounds)

For example, there's a stereotype that women want relationships and men want sex. Because of this, men who have lots of sex are considered awesome and successful, while women who have lots of sex are seen as skanky whores. On the other side of the coin, a girl who seeks friendship from a guy is seen and nice and genuine, while a guy who seeks friendship from a girl is thought of as having an ulterior sex-related motive.

Because men and women are not the same, we will always have double standards for genders, just as we will always have stereotypes, and misconceptions, and bigotry. The best we can hope for is that double standards are evened out in a way that gives both sides an equal chance at happiness and success and whatnot.

My two cents, at least.