It's Time To Forgive George Lucas
- Thread starter MovieBob
- Start date
You'll never stop people hating George Lucas because for some reason they see Star Wars as their film, instead of A film, that he made.
So if it doesn't hold up in the prequels and the special editions, then he has ruined 'their' film.
So if it doesn't hold up in the prequels and the special editions, then he has ruined 'their' film.
I think even Yahtzee would endorse this.Eclectic Dreck said:
Oh.Eclectic Dreck said:
Seriously, re-watch it with adult eyes and realise you're watching a duck seduce a girl.
I actually sent the link to MovieBob last week, I may have sparked this whole debate...Whoops.Treblaine said:
I never hated Lucas, and I'm a huge Star Wars fan. I always felt the special edition doesn't really change much of the film, just some background elements. And though the prequel trilogy may have been bad at times, it's still imensely watchable, and RotS was pretty good.
I don't really understand the Lucas hate, the man gave us the Star Wars universe and he gave us Indy, if he didn't you'd have nothing to hate him over.
I don't really understand the Lucas hate, the man gave us the Star Wars universe and he gave us Indy, if he didn't you'd have nothing to hate him over.
I think your wrong to an extent MovieBob. The thing you seem to be missing when looking at this is that whether it's healthy or not, the original movies went from being mere movies into an iconic piece of culture. Kids grew up feeling this was something very special, and during their formitive years I think it very much became part of who they were. The good vs. evil morality, redemption, etc...
I think the problem George Lucas has is that he didn't FULLY realize what he created, or if he did, he decided it was a bad thing. The issue with a lot of what he did was that he decided to retcon key elements of the mythology in the course of doing the prequels and the remastered versions of the original trilogy.
He also seemed to miss the point entirely that a big part of what made Star Wars successful, even for adults at the time, was that it took the whole space fantasy thing fairly seriously. Comparing the bulk of the Star Destroyer going past at the beginning of the first movie to most other space ships and such we had seen in movies before that point and well... it wasn't goofy, it was awesome. His revisions to the series were to sit down and make things a lot more kiddified and less pseudo-believable. He inserted more google-eyed muppets, and cutesy droids in the backround of most scenes for example... and that was a bad idea.
George Lucas very much does deserve the beating he gets.
As far as his commercialism goes, well I don't really mind that so much. Despite my criticisms when things go too far and people get too greedy, I think he did okay. It isn't like he was demanding 3x the price for movie tickets or $120 for a DVD or VHS tape because
he wanted a new Bently. Sure he produced a ton of spin off merchandise, of greatly varying quality, but that is all it was was spin off merchandise.
The sole complaints I have with George Lucas and his business dealings comes down to:
#1 He at one point believed he had done as much with "Star Wars" as he could, and apparently sold the official rights to the universe to "Dark Horse Comics". An act that lead to some rather dubious political fighting and manuvering when he wanted them back. Who was right, and who was wrong is debatable even now (from my understanding of things) but it always struck me as a situation where he sold Star Wars, and then used his massive love as it's creator to take it back despite this desician.
The sole remaining contribution by Dark Horse in the canon is I believe "Shadows Of The Empire" and that has more or less turned into the occasional cameo by a couple of the bit players. The definition of what a Sith was used here never continued.
#2 Before the release of the Timothy Zahn sequels, there was another set of sequels written at a "Hardy Boys" level with titles like "Prophets Of The Dark Side", and "The Glove Of Darth Vader". The idea being that the Grand Moffs basically create a false "son of the emperor" to assume control who fakes force powers using cybernetic implants. A few aspeces of this series still exist in the pseudo-canon, but basically it was erased.
In a similar vein to the Dark Horse bit above, again I make note of the fact that he basically allowed the creation of Star Wars Material and then decided to pull a massive "take back". How nasty this one got is beyond me, since it wasn't all over the geek news like the "Dark Horse" bit was.
#3: I also blame George Lucas for not listening to his fans. By this I mean not that he should have written the sequels and prequels soley based on fanboy rants and fanfiction, but rather that he should have paid attention to what the fans thought was cool about Star Wars.
As much as I'd like to say that Jar Jar was a massive surprise, people should have seen this coming many years beforehand. Consider that almost every cash in George Lucas seemed to be involved in was cutesy, the "Droids" and "Ewoks" animated series for example, along with of course the "Ewok Adventure" movie.... ironic since the Ewoks were so disliked he later has to explain why they were done that way.
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Truthfully, I do think George Lucas *DOES* owe his public because after all he was lifted up to legendary status by us. To put things into perspective if The Pope (to use the example) said "just kidding" his death and probably that of the cardinals would probably be horrible. I think one of the problems with George Lucas is that he didn't just fail hard and go away, he continues to sit out there, failing harder and harder, and doing massive damage.
The last GOOD thing he was involved with was KoTR 2 (where he was involved in the writing), and that mostly succeeded despite the cuts and not being finished because the storyline was actually pretty serious, and got to the gist of one of the biggest questions of the saga (The Force itself manipulating the universe). That was epic, deep, stuff. Not muppets and rubber-suit/CGI hybrid moron aliens prancing around.
It sort of shows what he is capable of, which makes it harder to deal with what he's given us.
I think the problem George Lucas has is that he didn't FULLY realize what he created, or if he did, he decided it was a bad thing. The issue with a lot of what he did was that he decided to retcon key elements of the mythology in the course of doing the prequels and the remastered versions of the original trilogy.
He also seemed to miss the point entirely that a big part of what made Star Wars successful, even for adults at the time, was that it took the whole space fantasy thing fairly seriously. Comparing the bulk of the Star Destroyer going past at the beginning of the first movie to most other space ships and such we had seen in movies before that point and well... it wasn't goofy, it was awesome. His revisions to the series were to sit down and make things a lot more kiddified and less pseudo-believable. He inserted more google-eyed muppets, and cutesy droids in the backround of most scenes for example... and that was a bad idea.
George Lucas very much does deserve the beating he gets.
As far as his commercialism goes, well I don't really mind that so much. Despite my criticisms when things go too far and people get too greedy, I think he did okay. It isn't like he was demanding 3x the price for movie tickets or $120 for a DVD or VHS tape because
he wanted a new Bently. Sure he produced a ton of spin off merchandise, of greatly varying quality, but that is all it was was spin off merchandise.
The sole complaints I have with George Lucas and his business dealings comes down to:
#1 He at one point believed he had done as much with "Star Wars" as he could, and apparently sold the official rights to the universe to "Dark Horse Comics". An act that lead to some rather dubious political fighting and manuvering when he wanted them back. Who was right, and who was wrong is debatable even now (from my understanding of things) but it always struck me as a situation where he sold Star Wars, and then used his massive love as it's creator to take it back despite this desician.
The sole remaining contribution by Dark Horse in the canon is I believe "Shadows Of The Empire" and that has more or less turned into the occasional cameo by a couple of the bit players. The definition of what a Sith was used here never continued.
#2 Before the release of the Timothy Zahn sequels, there was another set of sequels written at a "Hardy Boys" level with titles like "Prophets Of The Dark Side", and "The Glove Of Darth Vader". The idea being that the Grand Moffs basically create a false "son of the emperor" to assume control who fakes force powers using cybernetic implants. A few aspeces of this series still exist in the pseudo-canon, but basically it was erased.
In a similar vein to the Dark Horse bit above, again I make note of the fact that he basically allowed the creation of Star Wars Material and then decided to pull a massive "take back". How nasty this one got is beyond me, since it wasn't all over the geek news like the "Dark Horse" bit was.
#3: I also blame George Lucas for not listening to his fans. By this I mean not that he should have written the sequels and prequels soley based on fanboy rants and fanfiction, but rather that he should have paid attention to what the fans thought was cool about Star Wars.
As much as I'd like to say that Jar Jar was a massive surprise, people should have seen this coming many years beforehand. Consider that almost every cash in George Lucas seemed to be involved in was cutesy, the "Droids" and "Ewoks" animated series for example, along with of course the "Ewok Adventure" movie.... ironic since the Ewoks were so disliked he later has to explain why they were done that way.
-
Truthfully, I do think George Lucas *DOES* owe his public because after all he was lifted up to legendary status by us. To put things into perspective if The Pope (to use the example) said "just kidding" his death and probably that of the cardinals would probably be horrible. I think one of the problems with George Lucas is that he didn't just fail hard and go away, he continues to sit out there, failing harder and harder, and doing massive damage.
The last GOOD thing he was involved with was KoTR 2 (where he was involved in the writing), and that mostly succeeded despite the cuts and not being finished because the storyline was actually pretty serious, and got to the gist of one of the biggest questions of the saga (The Force itself manipulating the universe). That was epic, deep, stuff. Not muppets and rubber-suit/CGI hybrid moron aliens prancing around.
It sort of shows what he is capable of, which makes it harder to deal with what he's given us.
Kinda hard to understand the article, i guess i'm not involved in this 'debate' but the way i see it, the films were made, there are people out there who enjoyed the films... do people who feel "raped" want to take that away from these people simply because they're sad?
I'm all for stuff being made even if it's crap, i can avoid it and there will always be people who enjoy it whatever it is.
I'm all for stuff being made even if it's crap, i can avoid it and there will always be people who enjoy it whatever it is.
I can only speak for myself, but I don't see what 'forgiveness' has to do with it. When he made good movies, I liked him as an artist. Now he makes shit, and I don't. When he starts making good films, I'll like him again.
Ball's in your court, Mr. Lucas.
Ball's in your court, Mr. Lucas.
I have no problem with the prequel trilogy being horrible movies. Disappointing to be sure, but for me it didn't take anything away from the original trilogy. What I do have a problem with is Lucus' decade long campaign to destroy the well established Star Wars Universe. I mean, the retconns Lucas has pulled puts even Quesada to shame.
I mean, don't get me wrong. Lucas has done amazing things, and I know that neither he nor Star Wars is likely to be remembered by history for the things done in the expanded universe. I also know that if he stopped now I wouldn't think back to the bad that he did. But damnit, the man retconned Mandalorians into pacifists! What the crap Lucas!?
I mean, don't get me wrong. Lucas has done amazing things, and I know that neither he nor Star Wars is likely to be remembered by history for the things done in the expanded universe. I also know that if he stopped now I wouldn't think back to the bad that he did. But damnit, the man retconned Mandalorians into pacifists! What the crap Lucas!?
Well said, Bob. I, myself, enjoy the prequels. True some things could have been done differently(leaving Jar Jar behind at the Gungan City the first time around, having Anakin being about Luke's age when we first see him, and not having Vader's reaction to Padme being gone not being so cheesy) but to me Star Wars isn't about the drama or even the story that much. It's about the ACTION. Which we get our fair share of in all the movies. You get an awesome race sequence and lightsaber battle in Phantom, a chase scene and big ground battle in Clones, and then space battle and the lightsaber battle that actually FIT with how everyone saw what happened between Kenobi and Anakin.
To me it is nothing more than people who saw the movies the first time around, and actually being around to seeing the first three being done and not having them fit what they had piled on their pedestal over 20 years. Though I like to think that this bears a lesson to stop setting your hopes on a movie so high. You expect a perfect crab salad but taste some pickle, and suddenly it's garbage. You expect the taste of pickle in your crab salad and whether or not it is there, the flavor is actually better for the less-elevated expectation.
(Maybe not the greatest analogy, but to me the flavor of pickle does spoil my crab salad if I'm not expecting it)
The original three were rereleased in their original form to please the devoted masses, and I would prefer that as a tip of the hat to the original special effect artists that devoted a lot of time to a movie they were betting good odds was going to bomb. But I also enjoy seeing the smoother action of the Death Star battle in the cgi redub. Seeing X-wings fly like F-14s instead of biplanes makes a big difference.
But since you decided to bring up Lord of the Rings....I have yet to forgive New Line for what trangressions they committed. But that's a different topic.
To me it is nothing more than people who saw the movies the first time around, and actually being around to seeing the first three being done and not having them fit what they had piled on their pedestal over 20 years. Though I like to think that this bears a lesson to stop setting your hopes on a movie so high. You expect a perfect crab salad but taste some pickle, and suddenly it's garbage. You expect the taste of pickle in your crab salad and whether or not it is there, the flavor is actually better for the less-elevated expectation.
(Maybe not the greatest analogy, but to me the flavor of pickle does spoil my crab salad if I'm not expecting it)
The original three were rereleased in their original form to please the devoted masses, and I would prefer that as a tip of the hat to the original special effect artists that devoted a lot of time to a movie they were betting good odds was going to bomb. But I also enjoy seeing the smoother action of the Death Star battle in the cgi redub. Seeing X-wings fly like F-14s instead of biplanes makes a big difference.
But since you decided to bring up Lord of the Rings....I have yet to forgive New Line for what trangressions they committed. But that's a different topic.
i actually saw the people vs George Lucas. i thought it was an even handed look at George Lucas.
i agree with the article - we forget often how much we owe lucas.
and I LIKED the prequals. I preferred them to the cliched a new hope, you can rage against me because of it but there is a significant number who agree with me, and thats a legitimate view to take. its what floats your boat.
but seriously though, dont rage at lucas because he doesn't have a time portal to the 70's.
and I LIKED the prequals. I preferred them to the cliched a new hope, you can rage against me because of it but there is a significant number who agree with me, and thats a legitimate view to take. its what floats your boat.
but seriously though, dont rage at lucas because he doesn't have a time portal to the 70's.
See, I talked this over with Irridium earlier and that's not it.samsonguy920 said:
I'll change your metaphor slightly to waldorf salad just because of those icky crustaceans.
I grew up on Waldorf salad. Yeh, the walnuts stick in your teeth at times and the apple is sometimes off, but it's a damn good salad.
Other people came along and added to the salad. Some people put pineapple in, which was ok. Some a little taste of tabasco, which was awesome. And some stuck it in cans, which got old quickly.
Then, twenty odd years after he said he was done with it, Lucas came along and added ketchup because he liked ketchup. We were hesitant and tried it, and it was awful. To the people who'd never had proper Waldorf, it was a new taste, and some quite liked it. We really didn't want it though but George said "No, it must always have ketchup. Kids like ketchup.", and we growled.
Then he added currants, then he added booze. We quite liked the booze, but we pleaded for the ketchup to go, and less currants.
George said "NO, KETCHUP must stay." even though he admitted in a later review that he would have preferred proper tomatoes.
Then he added chicken dippers and fish fingers to dip in it and we cried "FOR GOD'S SAKE MAN, STOP! The salad was already good enough!"
Now, if you like salad, great. If you like McDonalds salad then...well...ok. But understand that some of us just want a plain old Waldorf Salad of Awesome. We're even prepared to put up with a few currants, just no tomato.
/tortured_metaphor over.
Edit: And don't tell us what's in it.
And people say hating George Lucas doesn't give you an appetite. This is like a six degrees of separation game.The_root_of_all_evil said:
Pepper?