Japanese RPGs Need to Change, Says Final Fantasy Creator

[Gigano]

Isn't more focus on the manuscript, characterization, and exposition something all kinds of games which have a story could do with?

It's all good and well that they want to get western gamers into the genre - unless Pokemon Red counts I don't think I've ever played a JRPG - but that sort of requires it to remain a separate genre with something unique to offer them, so they probably shouldn't alter and adapt too much about it.

 

[minuialear]

They've needed to change for a long time. Or at least Final Fantasy has needed to; I can't play a Final Fantasy game without feeling like the writers use manatees to come up with their characters and plotlines.

And don't get me started on the Final Fantasy battle system...

 

[CitySquirrel]

I think what he meant was that JRPGs are strong at telling stories and evoking emotion. This is true...with few exceptions if you ask most people about games that invoked some emotion beyond excitement or fear, they will mention JRPGs. They are an excellent story telling medium.

People will make jokes about girly men and crazy costumes and stupid because those memes are currently popular and in everyone's mind. I think that a big reason JRPGs are not popular right now is the cultural backlash against Japan that has been going on for the last couple years. Yeah, there is always room for innovation but it is important to remember that what makes a JRPG the thing that we consider a JRPG is not that it is made in Japan. Those of us who enjoy them have come to enjoy them for what they are and change them too much and they stop being what we consider a JRPG. Morrowind made in Japan would still be Morrorwind.

Still, like so many modern games... the huge focus on graphics may detract from the content of the game. If you are spending half your budget on that then level design has to suffer a little.

 

[necronmm]

So it's pretty much the same problem that a lot of companies have ie not focusing on innovation and just re-hashing old concepts over and over.

 

[longbowgr]

Right, "we have made like what... 15 Final Fantasies, and now it's time to change..."

Get Real...

 

[Sebenko]

YES. Exactly! This is why I will continue to stay on my little 'high horse' of "Fuck off, Western RPG fans!" The hardcore Western RPG fans have absolutely no right or place to nitpick or complain about Japanese RPGs. Just don't play them. Others who DO like them, WILL play them.

And this is why I refuse to associate with JRPGs- the fans.

 

[Fern Williams]

I really like the turn based combat a lot of JRPGs have to offer. My issue with them is the voice acting and the god awful dialogue. The story's tend to be rather good if you can get past those 2 things. Also why do we see memory loss as a common thing in a lot of JRPGs? I would love to see more unique plot lines.

 

[ultimasupersaiyan]

If the JRPG god says the genre need to change the it must really need change. The story is why I keep playing JRPGs and sure I love turn based combat but Kingdom Hearts proved that it was only 1 option to go with.

Look at Lost Odyssey, sure it's using the old turn based combat people keep bitching about but the story is the best JRPG story since Chrono Trigger. Emotions and narrative are the core of the genre and the combat is the presentation.

I look forward to The Last Story coming out in the west. I am the biggest JRPG fan in Australia and every game Hironobu Sakaguchi has worked on have been gold. Plus it's a Wii JRPG! How many have been made for the thing since launch?

 

[MattAn24]

....What. NO FUCKING WAY. I adored Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals and Terranigma on the SNES. They were classics. Turning Lufia II into a shitty action-based game just isn't right. I only ever saw the trailer for the remake.. Ugh..

I don't think you realize that we agree with each other. I loved Lufia II on the SNES too, hated the DS remake.

I did play the DS remake as far as I could stand it. It feels nothing like Lufia II.

No, I know we're in agreement. I was more "what the hell?" in the way of not knowing how much it was changed. Sorry ^_^;;

YES. Exactly! This is why I will continue to stay on my little 'high horse' of "Fuck off, Western RPG fans!" The hardcore Western RPG fans have absolutely no right or place to nitpick or complain about Japanese RPGs. Just don't play them. Others who DO like them, WILL play them.

And this is why I refuse to associate with JRPGs- the fans.

I believe I've stated -many- times before on The Escapist and personally in chats with John Funk via Twitter, I am not a fan of EITHER sub-genre. I don't care about J's and W's. I care about the actual game. I like Fable III, I just really fucking despise the moral choice system in EVERY WRPG. It ruins game storylines for me. Then again, Fable III, like Kingdom Hearts, is an action-based hack'n'slash RPG. I don't mind THOSE RPG's. But Fallout and Mass Effect's shooter-based RPG can piss off. Third person AND first person.

If I want to play a shooter, I'll play Halo or Gears of War (they promote them AS shooters. Not RPGs.) Not an actual RPG.

I look forward to The Last Story coming out in the west. I am the biggest JRPG fan in Australia and every game Hironobu Sakaguchi has worked on have been gold. Plus it's a Wii JRPG! How many have been made for the thing since launch?

As a fellow Australian, I'll actually let you have the title of biggest JRPG fan, seeing as I just explained above how I don't mind what sub-genre it is. It's an RPG, I could care less either way after that. No issues here, buddy!

 

[Schreck157]

Not all JRPGs should be Final Fantasy clones. Just trying to copy what made Final Fantasy the dominating series that it is will only land the developers a "not as good as" final fantasy game. Now I like anime and JRPGs, but not all of them should be the same. Not all anime is the same, some is dark and gritty ( Ghost in the Shell for example ) some is light hearted, but deal with real world issues ( Inuyasha, Naruto ) and some are just weird. Just as anime has their set guidelines that allow someone to be able to identify a show as an anime, JRPGs should have set boundaries for their genre, but explore more variables within their genre than just doing whatever Square Enix is pushing out. JRPGs will grow, expand, evolve, diversify, et cetera; and I think that will open up their market to new players.

 

[minuialear]

They've needed to change for a long time. Or at least Final Fantasy has needed to; I can't play a Final Fantasy game without feeling like the writers use manatees to come up with their characters and plotlines.

And don't get me started on the Final Fantasy battle system...

Final Fantasy reinvents itself every game. Final Fantasy falls into the category of "changed too much" IMO.

I'm more referring to the story part of Final Fantasy, which at its core I wouldn't say has changed. You would only have to make a set of maybe 10-15 character archetypes to describe the characters in all the games (angsty character with mysterious past, moody character who broods about a past you don't get to learn much about, emo character who whines about how much he sucks all the time, "cool" guy who has teh greatest comebacks evar and is obviously irresistible to women, the unbearably peppy and/or ditsy/idiotic girl, the love interest, the ethnic comic relief who is generally an offensive racial stereotype, the character who's only role is to be an expert on some obscure thing that's necessary for the plot to proceed and otherwise is bland/useless/pointless, dude/chick out for revenge, dude/chick who's the last survivor of something and is either incredibly angsty or incredibly upbeat about it, etc).

And then there are the cookie-cutter plots, which usually have so many ridiculous and unnecessary plot twists, or disgusting amounts of melodrama, or other elements that seem more appropriate for fanfiction than for something that the writers tote as literature-quality writing. They tend to explore the same themes (people who really have no business working with each other fighting to save the world from some evil dude, who may or may not be the final evil dude you have to fight, with some rebellions and angsty love triangles tied in, etc).

The battle systems have gradually changed (not for the better, IMO, but at least they've changed, I guess); the story elements have remained very stagnant. Which is true of other franchises (I don't mean to imply that Final Fantasy is the only franchise who hasn't upgraded its story template for decades), but considering games like Final Fantasy rely on their story so much more than many other game genres might, it's a much bigger deal for those writers than it is for the writers of Pokemon, for example.

 

[MattAn24]

FYI Escapist, it seems my initial thought was correct. The thought that the Escapist staff have denied constantly. You're always posting JRPG-stabbing "news" (whether it's truthful from Mr. Sakaguchi or whatever).

You may not intend to make them look like continual JRPG-bashing posts.. But your community does it for you. They also like to twist your reporting and abuse JRPGs in general. I understand members of the staff (John Funk, for example, who I can confirm from previous chats, is a super awesome dude) actually really enjoy JRPGs. That's fine. I don't care if you do or you don't. But when community members are blatantly insulting the genre because "I DON'T LIKE IT SO IT MUST BE TERRIBLE", that's just sad.

Again, I'm not on any "side". If I had to "pick a side", it would be "shut the fucking hell up, kids, or we are NOT going to Disneyland. And you're certainly not getting any ice cream!"

 

[kiwisushi]

I have to be honest here, but it's not just JRPGs that need to have a little bit more innovation, all games seem to be going through the same old genre defying characteristics. WRPGs have a tendency to have too familiar a setting, and an over reliance on graphics. JRPGs seem to be samey too. What I would like to see is rather than there being these essentially two worlds, how about combining it a little, taking a few ideas from each other and seeing if it works. Perhaps a WRPG in a non-swords and sorcery setting. Mass effect and Fallout seem to have had some success with this, but that (sorry old Fallout fans) has to be partly because of the first person aspects that have widened their appeal. Imagine a JRPG in a real-world apocalypse akin to Fallout, perhaps some sort of disease has wiped out the worlds populace and you are a scientist team looking to find a supposed cure, still turn based, still using the same/similar art direction, with a few tweaks but it is a little more appealing to a western audience.

 

[ultimasupersaiyan]

I have a question for all those JRPG critics who love setting up flamebait.

Have you played 5 different JRPGs that weren't Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest? If not go play them and then come back.

Here's a good list of modern ones to try before you *****.

Lost Odyssey 360
Eternal Sonata 360,PS3
Persona 4 PS2
Chrono Trigger DS
Valkyria Chronicles PS3
Tales Of Vesperia 360(or any other Tales Of game from Namco)
Blue Dragon 360
Star Ocean(any of them) PSP,PS3,PS2, 360
Lunar Silver Star Harmony PSP(Or the 2 PS One games if you can find them)
Golden Sun Dark Dawn DS
Kingdom Hearts Birth By Sleep PSP

You should be able to get these since they are on the current consoles and remember that Square-Enix is not the only JRPG company!

Also I hate WRPGs because of all the dialogue trees that seem to never end and playing yourself in a game or even worse, playing for achievements isn't fun for me. I honestly wish they'd remove achievements in RPGs so you can concerntrate on the experience instead of non existant awards for obsession. I do like 1 WRPG, Fallout 3 and I've played a tons of them in the past and some of the newer ones and hated them. I know WRPGs can be good but they are not for me.

 

[Eponet]

Well, my favourite PS3 game (Demon's Souls) is a JRPG... So, as far as my tastes go, they don't need to change much.

I didn't like it so much due to its emotions, as its enviormental atmosphere and gameplay though.

 

[cynicalsaint1]

Really I think a big part of the problem is their audience has largely grown up, while your average jRPG is "A bunch of teenagers angst their way through saving world". Compare that to Mass Effect or Dragon Age, which tackle mature themes in an intelligent manner.

All you have to do to see everything that's gone wrong with jRPGs is look at FFXIII - you don't need to have your character babble on melodramatically about their feelings for 20min to convey emotion. They've forgotten how to be subtle - they're all flash and no substance. They're still marketing to teenagers when those of us who fell in love with games like FFVII or Chrono Trigger are now in our mid 20's to early 30's.

 

[Smooth Operator]

To be honest, I feel that conveying emotion is something JRPG's actually aren't very good at. Especially the cutscenes in FF games that I've seen. Maybe it's just the bad voice acting.

I'd wager that you could probably make JRPGs a lot better just by removing the horrid voice acting that many of them seem to have inherited from anime.

No it's not a voice acting problem, it's Japanese story-telling and their text.
Japanese games mostly try to convey emotion through text so it's alot of unnecessary fluff that isn't present in western games and it sort of does and doesn't make sense at the same time, and they usually go that anime route over the top on everything so it again makes no sense (the hero character will shout stupid hero stuff, the emo character will be super emo, one will be super cute, next super bitchy, and super evil,...).
While western games only put emotion into the voices and animations, plus they keep them very close to what makes sense, very rarely will someone go so overboard as animes.

I don't want JRPG's to completely turn over, just tone it down a little to make it more bearable.
Maybe make the combat realtime and turn based switchable(appease both crowds), and take a bucket of water to those characters, don't just push their "features" to the point where they just annoy the f*ck out of you.