Jimquisition: Accepting the Isms

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RJ Dalton

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Consider this: what if the game knows about it's own whateverist content because it intentionally built that into the setting and is using that aspect of its setting to explore the issue in it's own way? I think it's a bad idea to attempt to make games so clean and free of anything that might be considered offensive or not politically correct, because then you're on the same page as the people who want to censor Huck Finn because of its racist content. These are issues that need addressing and exploring and we can't do that as long as we're avoiding the issue.
 

Pyrian

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franksands said:
Please tell me in a civil and logic manner why Lara being a victim of rape...
Please don't bring up "civil and logic[sic] manner" if you're going to attempt to start a discussion with a blatant falsehood. We can't have a civil and logical discussion if you're lying from the get-go.
 

Something Amyss

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Jim, I know that as an example of shining hope for humanity, you assume better of people than I do, but I think it's important to accept that racism, sexism and homophobia are rampant in gamers. While it may be some people are afraid their pastimes will be taken away, but there are a lot of people who will actively harass and discriminate based on race, genitals, or whose genitals you are attracted to.

I'm not sure of the actual ratio, but I would certainly call this a major reason people try and shut down debate on sexism and the like. Remember, we have guys who think it's okay to sniff their teammates and be basic creepers or worse.

Women harassed at cons tend to get the whole "she was asking for it!" treatment, and there are numerous reports of security being crap at these events. People ask why gays feel they need a safe space, but I'm surprised any woman dares show up at cons these days at all either.

No, it's easier to say the person who is bringing it up is a bad person, because the character of the actual gamer is quite often at issue.

Calibanbutcher said:
So, you are telling me that no-one wants to take my games away from me?
Can I finally come out of the basement then?
Or will all these "isms" suddenly unfold and steal my library?
It's a trap! Jim is working with the isms! In fact, you can't spell "Jimquisition" without ISM!

I am, whoever, a bit weary of people crying out that "OMG EVERYTHING NEEDS TO CHANGE SO NOTHING EVER IS OFFENSIVE EVER AGAIN ANYMORE", because if we go that far, we will be sitting in front of blank screens, lest we offend the colour-blind who can't play, listening to nothing, so as not to offend the deaf.
Okay, who the hell is actually saying that? Seriously.

Jimothy Sterling said:
I would argue that trying to bury those little things, hiding them, and acting sensitive whenever they're brought up can only HELP those trying to undermine it. Accepting them, and using them as jumping points for rational and provocative discussion, will only solidify gaming's status.
Indeed, denying the existence just makes us look...Well, bad. It could be bad for a bunch of reasons; we could be childish, stupid, naive, combative/petulant, addicted or any of a number of other states. It comes off as "LALALALALALALALA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

Though gamers can hear the criticism, and take it poorly.
 

bunji

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Regarding that torse; if that had been a male torso, there would have been no problem whatsoever. That strikes me as sexist too, but hey, aslong as its only males getting horribly murdered it's all cool right?

What I mean is, what gets me with all the honking about sexism is that no one ever gives any time to the idea that maybe, just maybe, sexism goes both ways. Just think about how many males you kill playing through cod, and I think no females.

Just saying there's two sides of every coin, and Im fucking tired of one side being portrayed as the good defenders of morality and divine wisdom, while just voicing that "hey, maybe you aren't the only victims, just maybe" gets you branded as a mysoginist.

Which I am sure to be for this.
 

Something Amyss

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RJ Dalton said:
Consider this: what if the game knows about it's own whateverist content because it intentionally built that into the setting and is using that aspect of its setting to explore the issue in it's own way? I think it's a bad idea to attempt to make games so clean and free of anything that might be considered offensive or not politically correct, because then you're on the same page as the people who want to censor Huck Finn because of its racist content. These are issues that need addressing and exploring and we can't do that as long as we're avoiding the issue.
Of course, nobody here is talking about making games free and clear of all offensive content. Except the people clubbing that strawman into the ground. Similarly, the only people who seem to bring up "political correctness" are the ones trying to demonise it.

On that note, we really don't have games that equate to Huck Finn in terms of actual content. When a game is racist, it's generally just racist. And you know the funny thing? The people who bring it up most are gamers, the same gamers who don't call for the banning of such games.
 

Something Amyss

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bunji said:
aslong as its only males getting horribly murdered it's all cool right?
Will the males be wearing bikinis and have implant-augmented tits shoved in them? Because then you might have a fair comparison.
 

PunkRex

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I really don't think the Lara Croft trailer was sexist, the Hitman one on the other hand I find incredibly so, it was bloody stupid and don't get me started on that Dead Island Riptide... thing...

Out of interest, any animal lovers out there? I find alot of games over look the idea of animal cruelty. I understand alot of the time its in line with the setting, dark fantasy, wild west, etc but often its just something you can do and it upsets me. Hell I love Pokemon but the game trys so desperatly to dance around the subject, I know its for kids but they seemed to address it in Black & White only to turn around at the last minute and go 'lolz, world domination', I was pissed.
 

Mylinkay Asdara

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Well said. It isn't as if these "isms" don't exist in other forms of media, entertainment, literature, art, pretty much everything our species creates for each other. The difference is, we study these things, we talk about them, we take a look at them to learn how people think and what they put forward to others. That's where I'd like to see games get one day, and that's something I'm working on and I know I'm not alone in that pursuit. In the mean time though, it would really help if the "community" could let go of the "from my cold dead hands" mentality and realize that discussion can be productive it doesn't always have to be a grudge match vs. "popular" thinking that's trying to extinguish them and their hobby.
 

Chimpzy_v1legacy

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You'd think the point this video makes would be obvious. Regardless, what needs to be said needs to be said. So yay to you, Jim, for saying it.

One thing left me wondering though. When Jim says he doesn't support Earthworm Jim because of the backwardness of its creator, what did he mean by that?

EDIT: never mind, a quick search answered my question.
 

geizr

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So, in other words, and yet again for the umpteenth time, the message is gamers need to grow up and get over themselves? (Don't forget, the game developers come from the same pool of people as the gamers themselves.)
 

bunji

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Zachary Amaranth said:
bunji said:
aslong as its only males getting horribly murdered it's all cool right?
Will the males be wearing bikinis and have implant-augmented tits shoved in them? Because then you might have a fair comparison.
Do you look like Kratos? Or Dante? Or Phoenix? Or any other of the idealized male figures that are the exclusive body-type for male main characters in games? Because it makes total sense for cratos to be bare-chested right?

When it comes to sexualization, like tits and butts, of course there are more women presented as eye candy. But if you really think thats the worst kind of sexism you need to have your moral compass readjusted. Having some women wear revealing clothing is, I submit, a pathetic counter-weight to the trillions of times more male enemies that are killed.
 

ash12181987

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Excellent points Jim.

I will say, that telling people to be reasonable, and try to meet opinions halfway, is like telling people to believe in unicorns: Largely impossible. This is BECAUSE of just what you said: The nature of the society we live in, you either have to be all for one side or the other, having ambiguous opinions is WRONG! Why? because only a traitor would have the gall to suggest that you could like and not like something, that is just what people who don't like things -Say- in order to find common ground, when arguing with other people. At least that is how it comes across most of the time, funnily enough.
 

Rastrelly

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Zachary Amaranth said:
bunji said:
aslong as its only males getting horribly murdered it's all cool right?
Will the males be wearing bikinis and have implant-augmented tits shoved in them? Because then you might have a fair comparison.
Will the females be horribly murdered then? We already have Anders and that pilot guy from ME. Now it's the others side turn.

You see, the games are developed for male audience - mostly. Because sad statiistics are sad. So if you'll bring more girls to hardcore sector - be sure, you'll see results immediately. For now the female-oriented segment is rather narrow but it actually exists.

PS And to answer my own question: yes, there are tons of female opponents in TES games and lots of other RPGs. But this only makes "sexist"-screamers less credible.
 

spartandude

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bunji said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
bunji said:
aslong as its only males getting horribly murdered it's all cool right?
Will the males be wearing bikinis and have implant-augmented tits shoved in them? Because then you might have a fair comparison.
Do you look like Kratos? Or Dante? Or Phoenix? Or any other of the idealized male figures that are the exclusive body-type for male main characters in games? Because it makes total sense for cratos to be bare-chested right?
while you do have a point in that theres no good reason for kratos being bare chested and showing off his muscles, but if you think that he is sexualised then you are so wrong. yh sure there are probably a few women out there who think hes sexy but not many. its mostly done for a male power fantasy in those cases

OT i think Jim also hit on something that relates to making arguments in general. when he talks about admitting things are wrong in games but still likeing said game. i see so many people who think that because an opponant in argument conceded defeat about one thing that means they lost but it doesnt.
 

bunji

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spartandude said:
bunji said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
bunji said:
aslong as its only males getting horribly murdered it's all cool right?
Will the males be wearing bikinis and have implant-augmented tits shoved in them? Because then you might have a fair comparison.
Do you look like Kratos? Or Dante? Or Phoenix? Or any other of the idealized male figures that are the exclusive body-type for male main characters in games? Because it makes total sense for cratos to be bare-chested right?
while you do have a point in that theres no good reason for kratos being bare chested and showing off his muscles, but if you think that he is sexualised then you are so wrong. yh sure there are probably a few women out there who think hes sexy but not many. its mostly done for a male power fantasy in those cases

OT i think Jim also hit on something that relates to making arguments in general. when he talks about admitting things are wrong in games but still likeing said game. i see so many people who think that because an opponant in argument conceded defeat about one thing that means they lost but it doesnt.
How come when men are portrayed half naked and traditionally handsome its "male power fantasy" and when women are portrayed half naked and traditionally beautifull its "objectifying"? Why can't that be a female powerfantasy?
 

wizzy555

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spartandude said:
bunji said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
bunji said:
aslong as its only males getting horribly murdered it's all cool right?
Will the males be wearing bikinis and have implant-augmented tits shoved in them? Because then you might have a fair comparison.
Do you look like Kratos? Or Dante? Or Phoenix? Or any other of the idealized male figures that are the exclusive body-type for male main characters in games? Because it makes total sense for cratos to be bare-chested right?
while you do have a point in that theres no good reason for kratos being bare chested and showing off his muscles, but if you think that he is sexualised then you are so wrong. yh sure there are probably a few women out there who think hes sexy but not many. its mostly done for a male power fantasy in those cases

OT i think Jim also hit on something that relates to making arguments in general. when he talks about admitting things are wrong in games but still likeing said game. i see so many people who think that because an opponant in argument conceded defeat about one thing that means they lost but it doesnt.
Well now you into the morality of the intention of the designer and the morality of the outcome. I actually do think the new Dante is hot (before anyone starts flirting with me I'm not a girl) and I appreciate that even if it wasn't the intention. And there are women who treat Lara Croft as a power fantasy, sexualised or otherwise.

The intention of most games is to make money, does that sully the positive aspects?
 

JudgeGame

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I take my helmet off. JK, the law never rests, street judge humor. Well said Jim. Now I just need to turn this episode into neural waves or something and play it via satellite into everyone's dreams for the next 10 years or so. Thank God indeed.
 

Therumancer

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Alright, after I get done writing my comment here I'll check out MDF and see how it is.

I just wanted to say again on this subject that I feel Jim misses the point entirely. Not many people are concerned that people are going to "take their games away from them" simply that people want games to be an unfettered medium, devoid of political correctness. If you start taking people being offended by things like the "Hitman: Absolution" trailer, or "Riptide" bust of bloody busts seriously, and allow them a platform, that will lead to gaming companies becoming increasingly concerned about who they might offend, rather than in making the best game they can. It's inevitable that this happens when you open the door for the PC movement, so effort is made to shut the door in it's
face rather solidly.

What's more there is the simple point that in many cases it's not even a legitimate point of view from a PC perspective, but someone looking for five minutes of fame at the expense of the games industry. A good example of
this would be the "Hitman: Absolution" trailer, there is nothing even remotely sexist about that. You hear plenty of stuff about how girls aren't given enough screen time to do cool stuff in games, and here you've got a group of over the top, heavily armed, physically ideal women coming out doing the super-villain thing in a campy game and people complain about it and calling it sexist for pretty much being the exact opposite of sexism.

To put things into perspective it's the EXACT opposite of the old stereotype where the guy can't do anything to the female villain, so the love interest/female lead has to engage her in a cat fight, so the hero's integrity can be maintained by not seeing him punch out a girl no matter how tough/brutal/evil she might be. Here we have a situation where a dude comes out and pretty much treats the ladies just like anyone else in his rogues gallery and we get complaints about that too.

That's the problem you see, and why people get all up in the face of issues like that, it's a no win scenario, and that's EXACTLY why the people bringing up the issue for the sake of attention get shut down so hard.

Showing minorities (well those who are minorities in the US if not globally) as bad guys in video games where it's appropriate, tribals as tribals, and similar things likewise are not real issues, someone who actually tries to make a platform out of that is a troublemaker, and a problem themself, rather than someone simply making a statement people don't like and being attacked. The mark of a good troll and attention seeker is to make your comments seem insightful and well thought out, it works far better than just dropping a "this sucks" in all caps and leaving. The bigger the platform you can get, the more you can troll, and if you can actually troll people into change for the lulz so much the better. People like Anita are not heroes who are making relevent observations, but troublemakers who are laughing hysterically, as white knights help them spread their lulz through the internet. Being right isn't important as a troll so much as speaking with conviction, being able to get attention, and keep the chaos going. People have simply gotten smart enough to recognize it and act accordingly.

When it comes to things like Skyrim and that entire contreversy, understand that being promiscious is a big issue today, and was an even bigger deal in ancient times. That said the entire point of Skyrim is in terms of making desicians and deciding which quests you want to do (if any at all), and how to solve them. Complaining that this quest might be considered "sexist" and deserves special mention because of it, in a game where you can engage in mass murder, torture people to find their treasure, and oh yeah... lure people back to a cave to feast on them as a cannibal, is just insane. It's simply an issue because if someone mentions SEXISM it can get one a platform, it doesn't matter if it is, or the context of the events, the in-game society, or the rest of the game and the whole idea of moral choice inherant in it.

Speaking of moral choice one interesting bit about Skyrim is that I think it works better as a moral barometer on some level because it doesn't have some kind of omnipotent bean counter keeping score behind the scenes that is holding your ending hostage for good behavior. While doing all the quests/content for fun is something most people will do, it's interesting to see how many beyond the initial experience and seeing it all will do really depraved things for the sake of personal power, the game is quite beatable without Daedric artifacts for example, but ask yourself sometimes how many people actually play a character for the long term that doesn't collect them (especially the easier ones, which oftentimes involve the nastier acts).

In short if you take Skyrim as a whole, and want to make moral judgements about the game content and how people play, and your choice of target is to pick on the sexism inherant in outing a woman for being promiscious in a game based on an ancient culture, you are either a troll trying to cause trouble based on current politics, or utterly insane to the point where people should be ignoring you anyway.

As a final point, I'll say that the whole "Bust of a bloody bust" from Riptide is attached to an over the top zombie horror game. A genere known for babes, boobs, and blood.... and popular with both men and women incidently. Part of the appeal of this entire genere is that it's so "wrong". Someone who complains about an item like this by definition is someone who is not really a genere fan, and probably doesn't "get it". As a result they are not worthy of having an opinion in dealing with a niche audience and a product directed at it. Complaints about this kind of thing are along the lines of saying "you shouldn't do things like this at all" because nobody was ever saying this was right and normal to begin with (rather reveling in how utterly F@cked up it is). You attack something like this, your basically attacking a whole genere and saying things about the people who like horror movies, zombies, etc... none of who need someone else to tell them the differance between fantasy or reality or that this represents something "wrong". This paticular incident goes beyond video games, to the kind of "moral majority" whack jobs who attack horror movies and such on general principles, and that principle is pretty much that nobody should have, or enjoy, things like this. In short it's so over the top that it's a non-issue for anyone who isn't a proponent of censorship, and thus unworthy of having an opinion on the subject by definition as their point of view violates basic societal principles of expression. When you take this so far as to call it "sexist" that just becomes trolling, getting even more ridiculous than moral censors who can at least argue their convictions, your basically attaching an "ism" for the sake of getting attention. The work is by definition so bloody wrong (which is the appeal) intristically that there is no real way to attack it an these kinds of grounds. To say they "Dead Island Bust" is sexist basically implies that it's wrong because it's a female torso, like it being a guy's bloody torso would make it acceptable... stop and think about that one for a second, as that's exactly what an attack based on sexism implies. What's more when it comes to macabre art, I think it's pretty co-ed to be honest, thisis about attention rather than a valid point because technically to make a legitimate point about this you'd have to prove that there are more items like this involving women than men and that this involves a trend, and to be honest with the dummies I've seen in haunted houses, on sale around Halloween, and similar things, it actually seems co-ed to me, and truthfully I think I've probably seen a lot more displayable mock ups of dead guy parts than those from girls.... something I'd actually think Jim would know since he DOES seem to shop in those kinds of specialty stores going by some of the props he's displayed in his shows. If I remember, maybe I'll actually take count next time one of those halloween seasonal shops opens up and post my findings... I half expect I'll find that the most sexist thing is that we don't have more models of dead women (discrimination! girls can be mutilated and dismembered as easily as guys can!).
 

Phasmal

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Zombine3D said:
minimacker said:
Having sex with many men in a medieval high-fantasy?
This is what popped in my head when I saw this video.
This game has dragons, magic, furries and people who will marry me because I'm wearing a certain kind of necklace.
I am absolutely sure the lack of slut shaming would not destroy the `realism`.

OT: Excellent points.
I find many things problematic with games (though recently I'm worried that the community is much worse than the content), but I still bloody love games. I spend the majority of my free time playing them, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't point out things that could be improved.
Sticking our collective heads in the sand just makes it look like we have something to hide.
 

Fearzone

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It is good you bring up the "all-or-none" approach to rendering judgment on any given thing, such as a videogame. I agree it is probably cultural, such as, "if Skyrim has one sexist quest then Skyrim is a sexist game." It makes for better TV and is intellectually less taxing than the more functional approach of seeing things as a mixed bag.

While gamers may react to something like sexism in Skyrim in an all-or-none fashion, i.e. "screw u ur a total idiot," don't forget they are often responding to an argument poised for them in an extremist way--possibly because that is the way the writer thinks, or possibly because s/he was just trying to get more page hits by saying a popular game that isn't sexist IS sexist. Just saying, it takes two to tango. Oh I know, probably down in paragraph 12 there was a comment made about how much the author really likes the game and takes a more balanced perspective. Fine.

Since Skyrim is brought up as an example, I just wanted to say it is a game that went out of it's way to be equitable in perspective and offend the least amount of people possible, and if one quest didn't get caught by QA, it is probably something we should let slide. It is really dumb to write about sexism in Skyrim. I played over 400 hours of Skyrim and I never saw that quest.