Jimquisition: Accepting the Isms

[Moth_Monk]

Uh...I was expecting the Earthworm Jim guy to be a pedophile or something. But he's just a homophobe? Is the game homophobic? Come on Jim, man up - death of the author and all that (fallacy of negative association)

 

[wizzy555]

I have to say I agree with the point that the people discussing are on extreme sides of each other. However the internet doesn't have a middle ground. You're either black or white, there's no grey in the middle or any other colour somewhere in the equation.

This is part of the reason there's so much hostility towards feminists. Extreme feminism inspires extreme misogyny. I tend to stay away from all sexism, feminism and homophobia debates because I don't get along with either extreme side and I don't want to be associated with either side.

You only choose to believe that. Your view is not representative of the reality.

Got to page 3 before someone said something that made me lose all hope of rational conversation. Improvement.

 

[Moth_Monk]

Having sex with many men in a medieval high-fantasy?

This is what popped in my head when I saw this video.

This game has dragons, magic, furries and people who will marry me because I'm wearing a certain kind of necklace.
I am absolutely sure the lack of slut shaming would not destroy the `realism`.

Because if we dare to include these topics in games, NEXT IT WILL AFFECT CHILDREN'S MINDS AND THEY WILL THINK...blah, blah, blah,

We often here this kind of bullshit from people going on about violence.

Having thou cake and eating it?

If we start being censorial with games where will it end? Where will the lines be drawn?

 

[Moth_Monk]

I'm surprised Earthworm Jimothy didn't mention Lollipop Chainsaw...as an example along with Tomb Raider, Hitman etc. etc.

Captcha: Blaze a trail

Indeed.

 

[Yopaz]

I have to say I agree with the point that the people discussing are on extreme sides of each other. However the internet doesn't have a middle ground. You're either black or white, there's no grey in the middle or any other colour somewhere in the equation.

This is part of the reason there's so much hostility towards feminists. Extreme feminism inspires extreme misogyny. I tend to stay away from all sexism, feminism and homophobia debates because I don't get along with either extreme side and I don't want to be associated with either side.

You only choose to believe that. Your view is not representative of the reality.

Yeah, this is nothing but my interpretation judging forum debates. I wont deny that or claim that this is representative. Was really my idle speculation worthy to try to start a discussion? Thank you for proving me right for trying to stay out of these things though.

 

[Phasmal]

Because if we dare to include these topics in games, NEXT IT WILL AFFECT CHILDREN'S MINDS AND THEY WILL THINK...blah, blah, blah,

We often here this kind of bullshit from people going on about violence.

Having thou cake and eating it?

If we start being censorial with games where will it end? Where will the lines be drawn?

That sure was some words you said.
Pity they had no connection to anything I said.

It's a stupid thing to include with the general atmosphere of Skyrim.
I can be a Dragonborne lady, I can marry someone of the same gender, arguing that it's correct for Skyrim's society to include that quest just seems bloody silly.
Saying it's `medievial` doesn't make sense.

That was my actual point, by the way.
You seem to have missed it.

 

[Callate]

Eh? The dragonborne can be a woman, and the master wizard was a woman. The rank below arch-mage.

The Dragonborn can be a woman, but Prell's repeated thesis in the article is that in spite of the presence of a woman who would be the obvious candidate to take over the vacated leadership role, the mantle is passed on to the PC instead. While there are female characters who could have become Archmage instead of the Dragonborn, there isn't (in my experience) any inherent suggestion that the role would more naturally pass to Faralda, Nirya, or Mirabelle than to Tolfdir, Phinis, or Urag.

 

[wizzy555]

Because if we dare to include these topics in games, NEXT IT WILL AFFECT CHILDREN'S MINDS AND THEY WILL THINK...blah, blah, blah,

We often here this kind of bullshit from people going on about violence.

Having thou cake and eating it?

If we start being censorial with games where will it end? Where will the lines be drawn?

That sure was some words you said.
Pity they had no connection to anything I said.

It's a stupid thing to include with the general atmosphere of Skyrim.
I can be a Dragonborne lady, I can marry someone of the same gender, arguing that it's correct for Skyrim's society to include that quest just seems bloody silly.
Saying it's `medievial` doesn't make sense.

That was my actual point, by the way.
You seem to have missed it.

Frankly both are silly, the presence of some egalitarian memes doesn't mean that the philosophy in skyrim resembles current social justice philosophy (btw, not all feminist philosophies dislike slut shaming). The writers say this is the culture in skyrim, so apparently it is.

 

[triggrhappy94]

Oh I didn't know MDF was you, Jim. I'll go check it out.

As for the zombie-boob statue: I've said it before, I'll say it again. Why does everything need to have a pair of boobs strapped to the front? If I want to watch porn, I'll watch porn. I don't need shameless shots of the female characters' massive boobage (or assage, I'm not biased) every ten minutes to remind me of what I'm missing by spending hours playing the game.

 

[Hagi]

One of the first videos where I have to say I disagree with Jim.

Not really because he's wrong about there being idiots who take any sort of criticism as the idea that someone's trying to take their games away and must thus be shut up, those definitely exist.

But rather because misrepresents the entire argument about whether or not certain things are sexist as everyone who disagrees on something being sexist being that sort of idiot.

Just because something can be interpreted as sexist does not mean it has to be. If you're out looking for it you can find sexism, racism etc. EVERYWHERE. It does not mean that's actually the case. It's perfectly possible to disagree that certain things are sexist and to find those that do find them sexist to be overly sensitive without trying to shut up all criticism out of fear of your favorite games being taken away.

Jim tries to stop things turning black and white by turning them into a different kind of black and white, that doesn't really make things better.

 

[Phasmal]

Frankly both are silly, the presence of some egalitarian memes doesn't mean that the philosophy in skyrim resembles current social justice philosophy (btw, not all feminist philosophies dislike slut shaming). The writers say this is the culture in skyrim, so apparently it is.

To be clear, I'm not debating the relevancy of that quest at all.
What I am debating is the attitude that `of course things should be that way, medieval!!!`.
Seeing as that isn't how the culture of Skyrim comes across and short of that quest there is no reason at all to think that women in that culture are looked down on for having sex.
(And I don't care what some `feminist philosophies` think, shaming women for having sex is fucked up).

 

[wizzy555]

Eh? The dragonborne can be a woman, and the master wizard was a woman. The rank below arch-mage.

The Dragonborn can be a woman, but Prell's repeated thesis in the article is that in spite of the presence of a woman who would be the obvious candidate to take over the vacated leadership role, the mantle is passed on to the PC instead. While there are female characters who could have become Archmage instead of the Dragonborn, there isn't (in my experience) any inherent suggestion that the role would more naturally pass to Faralda, Nirya, or Mirabelle than to Tolfdir, Phinis, or Urag.

But that has everything to do with Bethesda making the player character climb the ranks for every guild and nothing to do with social commentary. It's a game mechanic decision.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Thank God for shameless self promotion, too, ey Jim?

 

[Moth_Monk]

Because if we dare to include these topics in games, NEXT IT WILL AFFECT CHILDREN'S MINDS AND THEY WILL THINK...blah, blah, blah,

We often here this kind of bullshit from people going on about violence.

Having thou cake and eating it?

If we start being censorial with games where will it end? Where will the lines be drawn?

That sure was some words you said.
Pity they had no connection to anything I said.

It's a stupid thing to include with the general atmosphere of Skyrim.
I can be a Dragonborne lady, I can marry someone of the same gender, arguing that it's correct for Skyrim's society to include that quest just seems bloody silly.
Saying it's `medievial` doesn't make sense.

That was my actual point, by the way.
You seem to have missed it.

So you don't think the player should be given the opportunity to act like an immoral prick in the game? In anyway? The player gets to murder and eat people, and they don't get to be sexist? Come on. "I might be a psychopathic, cannibal assassin who worships a corpse; but at least I respect women!"

Surely you can see how silly that is? Having X in a game does not equal the promotion or endorsement of X. We should be allowed to fantasize or are you one of the thought police?

 

[Hagi]

Eh? The dragonborne can be a woman, and the master wizard was a woman. The rank below arch-mage.

The Dragonborn can be a woman, but Prell's repeated thesis in the article is that in spite of the presence of a woman who would be the obvious candidate to take over the vacated leadership role, the mantle is passed on to the PC instead. While there are female characters who could have become Archmage instead of the Dragonborn, there isn't (in my experience) any inherent suggestion that the role would more naturally pass to Faralda, Nirya, or Mirabelle than to Tolfdir, Phinis, or Urag.

That's not because the player is presumed to be male.

It's got nothing to do with gender.

It's because the player is THE CHOSEN ONE who's automatically better at everything than everyone else.

There's no suggestion it would pass to anyone but the player because the entire game, from the ground up, is designed to have the player as the ultimate hero of everything. There's not a single actually competent leader in the entire game who can take care of things themselves, the player is required to do EVERYTHING because that's how the game is designed. You're the chosen hero and by design absolutely nobody else is.

There's not a single male leader of your likes either. Ulfric can't win the war without you. Kodlak can't cure his lycanthropy without you. General Tullius can't beat down the rebellion without you. Not a single Yarl can defend his hold without you. Brynjolf can't bring the Thieves Guild back to glory without you. The Greybeards can't stop Alduin without you.

Nobody in the entire continent of Skyrim is capable of achieving anything, not even farming their own fields, without you the chosen hero.

 

[IamLEAM1983]

It feels to me like part of the issue stems from the fact that the medium is still viewed by the general public and most of us gamers as immature. For a lot of people, gaming is still a guilt-free, 100% escapism activity for them. This is their me-time to temporarily allow themselves to act as Neanderthals and huge dicks - or inversely, to be the best and most helpful person they *can't* be in Real Life. Games are where you can try and reinforce that childhood naïveté that friendship and love both fix everything.

For others, the medium is evolving. Games are turning into a valid medium to approach those "isms", to confront and analyze them. I think that's commendable. We need a game where you play a Black slave first suffering under the clutches of his masters and who then frees himself. We need a game with an openly gay protagonist. We need games to tackle both religion and science head-on, if these questions are ever to evolve. I'm not saying the future of these cultural tropes and elements rests solely on the shoulder of game devs, but we do have a sizable contribution to offer.

The problem is, Group A is still larger than Group B. Group A thinks any kind of serious discussion runs the risk of forcing the conservatives and fearful sorts to turn games development itself into an illegal activity, or they've got blinders on. Sexism in Skyrim? You bet your ass there's sexism in it. Mikael, the bard in Whiterun? Textbook macho prick if there ever was one. Of course there's meek Elves and burly Orcs and Viking-esque humans loving themselves some good Xena Warrior Princess types. The whole freaking game is a giant stereotype! That doesn't stop me from loving it!

Some games have definite problems in their scenario, in their world-building or in their intrinsic concepts. If only we could understand that, we'd be done with these outcries. We won't ever go past that, however, because there's always going to be petulant article-skimmers itching to spew their misdirected rage at articles they only barely took the time to read.

This goes both ways, too. Remember the "Sex-Box" controversy? A lot of right-wing pundits are aching for views and general notability and might be so removed from the gaming scene that they don't care if they rustle the jimmies of a few joystick-twiddling nobodies. If you're in that situation, what do you do? You pick the easiest target and do your job as a good, thoughtless demagogue.

Next time you're offended by something on the gaming scene, read up on it first. Curb your initial instincts to just find the OP and blast him. Try and look at your offending issue from both sides of the coin. Just try.

That's going to prove the naysayers that yes, gamers can have mature discussions.

 

[Phasmal]

So you don't think the player should be given the opportunity to act like an immoral prick in the game? In anyway? The player gets to murder and eat people, and they don't get to be sexist? Come on. "I might be a psychopathic, cannibal assassin who worships a corpse; but at least I respect women!"

Surely you can see how silly that is? Having X in a game does not equal the promotion or endorsement of X. We should be allowed to fantasize or are you one of the thought police?

Once again, while I may find a particular quest in bad taste or not wasn't the point of my post.
The point of my post was to highlight to people that saying `of course it's that way, it's a medieval society!` is wrong, considering that it isn't in line with the rest of the game.
I don't give a donkey's bollocks what you fantasize about.*

*EDIT: Expanding on that, whether or not the game should allow you to be x y and z is a matter I think game designers should think carefully about. But what with the actual community surrounding games being pretty damn sexist, personally if I were a dev I would just avoid it altogether.
Further, do you reckon games should have a sexist quest, a racist quest, a whatever quest, just to give you the `option` of doing it?

 

[Callate]

Eh? The dragonborne can be a woman, and the master wizard was a woman. The rank below arch-mage.

The Dragonborn can be a woman, but Prell's repeated thesis in the article is that in spite of the presence of a woman who would be the obvious candidate to take over the vacated leadership role, the mantle is passed on to the PC instead. While there are female characters who could have become Archmage instead of the Dragonborn, there isn't (in my experience) any inherent suggestion that the role would more naturally pass to Faralda, Nirya, or Mirabelle than to Tolfdir, Phinis, or Urag.

But that has everything to do with Bethesda making the player character climb the ranks for every guild and nothing to do with social commentary. It's a game mechanic decision.

...That's a reasonable conclusion. Prell's article seems to take the stance that similar "climb the ranks" conclusions in other guild storylines are evidence of sexism because there appears to be a female character who ought to take the vacated leadership role rather than the player's character. My point is that if it is, as you say, a game mechanic- one that occurs in other instances which are far harder to label as sexism- it's difficult to make the case that the result is sexism so much as a rote, repetitive writing structure in the guild-related storylines.

 

[JudgeGame]

I have to say I agree with the point that the people discussing are on extreme sides of each other. However the internet doesn't have a middle ground. You're either black or white, there's no grey in the middle or any other colour somewhere in the equation.

This is part of the reason there's so much hostility towards feminists. Extreme feminism inspires extreme misogyny. I tend to stay away from all sexism, feminism and homophobia debates because I don't get along with either extreme side and I don't want to be associated with either side.

You only choose to believe that. Your view is not representative of the reality.

Yeah, this is nothing but my interpretation judging forum debates. I wont deny that or claim that this is representative. Was really my idle speculation worthy to try to start a discussion? Thank you for proving me right for trying to stay out of these things though.

I can say from my own experience that there are a lot of internal arguments among feminists and there groups that have radically different goals. As an example, feminists argue a lot about whether prostitution is defendible or the treatment and respect transsexual women (and men) deserve.

As another more direct example, nobody (who is sane and progressive) is actually claiming that Django Unchained is 100% negative and racist. A lot of people feel there are problematic details that shouldn't be ignored. Knowledge is power and understanding what it is you are seeing and hearing gives you the power over how it affects you. If people choose to dismiss any possibility that a film can carry (unintended) racist ideas, the only thing they can do is accept those racist ideas as undisputed arguments towards racism. Django isn't a racist film, but if you don't question what it is you have just watched, it might as well have been racist.

 

[MrBaskerville]

What i took away from this video is that there exists people who didn´t find a statue of a decapitated corpse in bad taste and even went so far as to get angry that people were offended... What the hell?