Jimquisition: Better Does Not Mean Good

[Jimothy Sterling]

For those wondering, that box does indeed come from my own private Raisin Bran reserve.

 

[daxterx2005]

The Australian accent was freaking hilarious.

 

[loc978]

Valid points all, Jim... but this isn't just a problem in one industry. You're essentially complaining about unrestrained capitalism and not offering up any sort of solution other than "have the game companies stop being dicks".

If anyone wants this shit to change, they'll have to organize worldwide boycotts... and even then you probably couldn't get enough people on board to make a difference. Too many people are content with what they pay. Still, by all means, ***** about it. Who knows who might be listening?

 

[Strain42]

I admit that I do often have an "it could be worse" attitude when it comes to games (not everything, this is specifically for games) However, not to get snooty, but I feel like I'm allowed to say that because I'm not in the group of people adding to the problem. I'm fine with waiting for a price drop for new games, I'm fine with not paying for DLC that I don't really need. I have very little sympathy for people who do things that they don't have to do and then complain about the outcome.

So yeah, it can be a lot worse...but we all have the ability to make it better on ourselves without the big bad developers having to do anything.

When I see someone complain about paying sixty dollars for a game, I usually just roll my eyes and tell them "Then don't pay sixty dollars for it. You CHOSE to do that. No one forced you."

If everyone in the world suddenly stopped paying $60 for games and waited until the game becomes 40 or so, I'm not gonna say it could totally change the way things work, but at the very least we'd have less people complaining about $60 games because nobody would be buying them. It'd be like complaining about those albino baboon colonies on Io.

Also, I know this isn't the place for this, but even before the giant thread popped up, I've always liked the contrast between Jim and Extra Credits. Because even if they're on completely opposite ends of an argument, they both usually bring up some very valid arguments. Which just goes to show you that there really is no right answer to a lot of these issues.

My capcha here is "easy as cake" apparently it agrees with me.

 

[mike1921]

When gamers chastise a developer about a game for being "consolised" or being dumbed down, arguing that the developers don't care about their franchise and fans that follow them, ignoring the fact that the "streamlining" is intended to make a game more accessible to people with less tolerance to inefficient/unwieldy designs, and that audience being just as entitled to the games as you (but not as patient with games as you) since they will pay for it with money that is of equal value to your own... . Ergo, Entitlement. Your investment is equal to theirs, you have no real ground to argue otherwise (beyond feeling entitled).

Funny. Usually when I see a complaint about games being "consolized" it's because of a UI design that might make sense on a console controller being used on a PC, where it BECOMES "inefficient/unwieldy." And if our money is just as good as theirs ("worth just as much as theirs, like you said"), why should we have to put up with a slapdash lazy UI simply because they expect to sell more copies of the console version?

You're exactly what Urh was talking about, misusing the word "entitled" to be a bad thing. Of course we're "entitled" to a game that works on our systems. We paid for the goddamn game.

Well in the case of Skyrims UI, yeah you would have a right to complain. That system was slapped on generically for all platforms, not even trying to take advantage of a keyboards extra functionality. It's clunky and unintuitive, contrary to what the developers said it was.

I played elder scrolls IV and Skryim both on console (my sister wants to play, her computer is shit) before the PC and I have to say, the skyrim UI isn't even console-centric, it's just horrible shit all around, worst UI I've ever seen or used. I think it is so bad that I think bethesda should just pay the guys who made skyui some amount of money and patch it in on consoles (although for all I know that's impossible for some reason)

 

[Nurb]

The gamers that are so eager to let the big publishers fuck them up the ass are usually the younger ones from what I've seen. Well, compared to those who were there in the NES and 90's PC days when there were more than 3-4 companies controlling the industry anyway.

The same kiddies that love companies dictating what can go on their mobile devices and how to use them, and readily repeat, like the good corporate lap doggies they are, that used games are basically stealing and as bad as piracy, as if used games are a sudden invention... instead of games, video, and music media being resellable for over 35 years.

"Sure, I paid EA to screw me over and root through my personal items, but hey, they at least used lube... which I had to pay extra for... " -Origin user

 

[drednoahl]

Just because you have been with the series for x number of years (though not many people go further back then morrowind) does not give you creative control over where the series is heading next. The developers saw their system as inaccessible to people who would have paid for and enjoyed their game otherwise and made alterations over the years to find a sweet spot where as many people can be happy with the product as is possible (hint, we're not there yet). You got what was offered and you paid for it, just because it may not have achieved your expectations or standards, does not mean the developers have to bend over and alter the game to your idealised image of it. For every one who didn't like the removal of hand to hand as a skill, there are others who didn't care for it or prefer skyrims approach to it (damage based on armour rating or your gloves, if you get the right perk).

Again, by all means, let the world know what you don't like about it. I won't stop you and I won't argue unless I disagree with the assumptions being made. But don't feel like they owe it to YOU and a you alone... because you are only one of hundreds of thousands, to millions of people who also paid for the game. If anything, they owe it to their customers so if people agree unanimously, let it be known. They will have to listen.

To be honest, "consolised" generally means easy and unrewarding to play in my book. Bethesda softworks are fairly savvy though - having continued to support their modding community they could leave things out of the game that would be guaranteed to be added by modders and because of that not so much of a problem. Bioware on the other hand I think have made huge errors with their games working with EA, I suspect that enough of their fans don't trust them any longer and sales will not meet expectation. Gaining new fans at the expense of not meeting the expectations of existing core fans is a dangerous game; GTA IV sold well, but I don't know anyone who is looking forward to V enough to risk buying it at full price.

The key mistake made by those who like to wield the "entitled" card around in my opinion is that they seem to think folks like me want games to be designed specifically for core fans: that's a totally wrong assumption; we want choice. I had the same argument about anime over twenty years ago - the lack of a subtitled option for purchase led to massive piracy through fansubtitling which still persists today. When the option to play a game in my own style isn't in the game, well I'm not going to buy it am I? Devs and publishers expect me to buy it - that's entitled, but the truth of it is I'm simply not.

Players who have identified with and put vast amounts of time into a product shouldn't have to feel alienated "just because" devs want to make the game more accessible to a larger audience. Like a real life relationship, it's the little things that add up, and it's the little things that keep getting cut out of gamings' most popular franchises so instead of a stellar product we end up with mediocrity. Sure Bethesda Softworks or Bioware have delivered what they set out to, but I can't think of one reason why that should make them immune from receiving scathing criticism from the people who have supported them for so long and understand those games better often better than the devs do.

 

[infinity_turtles]

My favorite part of this episode was the God of War advertisement plastering
"BEFORE HE WAS A GOD,
HE WAS A MAN."
above Jim's head.

 

[AntonMTL]

Unfortunately, Jim, you are weak on this point. There is no "fair", "too expensive", etc. If people buy 2 games the same week for 120$ then that means they can and that it was not a problem. If you don't like the way the games are made, sell, or protect themselves or not then don't buy them. If people are keeping EA rich then EA is doing fine and has not moral obligation to change. Games are not a basic human right. They are not like water, air and shelter where we will all suffer and die and therefore have no choice but to pay exorbitant fees and get ripped off. They are entertainment. If you can't afford 15 games a month then make better choices and play fewer games.

I put 80 hours into Dark Souls, still love it and payed 35$ for it. I hate DLC (on-disk or not) and have never purchased one or purchased games that are crippled without the DLC. That is called freedom. They can make and sell what they want and I am free to buy it or not. All your moralizing and judging is ultimately ruining the chance for real understanding of the issues.

What is your suggestion? That we make laws protecting gamers from right wing games practices. Maybe Socialist gametopia is more your thing where games are made by and for the people and we all share in the profits.

I always find it funny when people villainize corporations that they keep rich. EA is kept rich by gamers. Its player ignorance and greed that allows these practices to flourish not game companies doing what all companies do; try to make the most money possible. Once you understand the basic logic you understand that this is democracy and as long as you maintain your freedom to choose then you are not being taken advantage of.

 

[algalon]

I paid $80 for Chrono Trigger. But I still wouldn't mind paying $30-40 for the next GoW or TES.
Handsome like Steven Segal?

Ok I admit, there is a small similarity.
Now, I'm gonna have some delicious, made in 'Merica, raisin bran. Yum.

 

[Zen Toombs]

This episode could have been a lot worse.

Clever.
Toombs approves +4

This episode could have been a lot worse.

...but I'm not sure if it could've been better. I also find that people who espouse the "it could be worse, so shut your trap and take another dick in the arse" attitude are usually the ones who piss and moan about "entitlement" when people air legitimate grievances about a particular game/business model/whatever.

Spoiler: Just in case you were wondering

Does noone get meta-humor anymore?

 

[theultimateend]

I laughed the entire time because of that advertisement line above this.

A touching tale, indeed.

 

[Sunrider]

Subtle product placement Jim, subtle

I agree.

Being punched in the stomach is better than being kicked in the junk.

Doesn't mean I'm going to start lining up for gut punches any time soon.

There are people who enjoy getting kicked in the junk!

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Subtle product placement Jim, subtle

I agree.

Being punched in the stomach is better than being kicked in the junk.

Doesn't mean I'm going to start lining up for gut punches any time soon.

There are people who enjoy getting kicked in the junk!

Yup, and those guys can't breed

 

[J.d. Scott]

This episode could have been a lot worse.

...but I'm not sure if it could've been better. I also find that people who espouse the "it could be worse, so shut your trap and take another dick in the arse" attitude are usually the ones who piss and moan about "entitlement" when people air legitimate grievances about a particular game/business model/whatever.

As a person who see's an issue with entitlement among gamers, I resent that. People do throw that buzz word around a bit too much, but it is a problem in some cases.

When gamers chastise a developer about a game for being "consolised" or being dumbed down, arguing that the developers don't care about their franchise and fans that follow them, ignoring the fact that the "streamlining" is intended to make a game more accessible to people with less tolerance to inefficient/unwieldy designs, and that audience being just as entitled to the games as you (but not as patient with games as you) since they will pay for it with money that is of equal value to your own... . Ergo, Entitlement. Your investment is equal to theirs, you have no real ground to argue otherwise (beyond feeling entitled).

Or gamers who complain about DLC in a general sense, associating all DLC with CoD map packs and weapon/armour/skin packs, while plenty of developers who have released complete games and merely want to extend playability post release and offer substantial DLC in place of the old Expansion pack system. These gamers think that DLC is intrinsically bad because they have to pay for more content and feel as though they deserve that content for buying the full game they already have. No you don't. It's optional, you don't need it unless you want to play more of that game but with NEW content. These are Entitlement issues.

*An example of this one would be the Deus Ex: HR game. When the "Missing Link" DLC was released, it added finished piece of content was cut entirely from the original release. The Developers figured the content was worth having in the game so reworked it into a full DLC (with 3-5 hours game play added to the game) and took on criticisms from the main game and experimented with solutions in the DLC.
However, people argued that because the content, in one form or other, was originally intended to be in the game in order to flesh out certain plot points, they were somehow entitled to the DLC at no cost. I have many problems with that.


However, situations where people throw the entitlement card down and in the process promote and praise bad Producer/Consumer relations, should be checked and confronted. When a Company treats it's customers like sheep or cattle of some form, seeing them as something to be exploited rather then being their only lifeline... that's when shit becomes a problem. On Disk DLC (as sterling argued before), Online passes, actions that diminish consumer power (attempts to demonise the used game market), Intrusive DRM, regional price differences... all these things are detestable and are only pushed by Companies who think they can get away with pull the rug from under us by telling us it's for our own good or that we don't understand...

No, YOU don't understand mister business man... you're here FOR US. If your very presence upsets the blood of your business (the consumer and their wallet) then you are doing something fucking awful.

This is a thoughtful, insightful post - I generally agree with you in most situations. However, there are few things - I wouldn't paint every single thing with a broad brush. Things like online passes, anti-used gaming measures, et al are not across the board morally reprehensible.

Some are bad solutions to terrible problems (used games sales and piracy) - in these cases, the industry and the consumer need to work together to find a common solution. Neither side should endeavor to take money out of the pocket of the other. For example, would you accept an all-digital platform if the pricepoint for the games was lower - say closer to $50 at new and scaled down over time?

Some are simply reactions to the nature of the industry. The curve of sales of DLC on the y axis and time from release date on the x axis is almost a straight slash (unless I just bobbled my metaphor...), so releasing DLC as early as possible is simply the market responding to external forces. If they store the files on the disc, it's even more cost-effective. Now, there are cases where this is abused, but not all of them. In Capcom's case, they flat out said there were going to be DLC characters - does the fact that they stored them on the disc make them wrong inherently?

And some are just revenue generating mechanics. Some are stupid and blatant (Asura's Wrath), but others are giving you good value for your money, so they deserve to be paid as well. Every situation, every company is different. Let your mind and your dollar be your voice.

 

[Hosker]

I think what people mean when they say things like that is you should simply appreciate what you have, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't strive for better. That's what I mean, anyway.

 

[theultimateend]

This episode could have been a lot worse.

...but I'm not sure if it could've been better. I also find that people who espouse the "it could be worse, so shut your trap and take another dick in the arse" attitude are usually the ones who piss and moan about "entitlement" when people air legitimate grievances about a particular game/business model/whatever.

You find that because that is almost always the case.

Those folks drive me bonkers, easily the most annoying group of people to talk to. At least in my life experience.

 

[Sunrider]

Subtle product placement Jim, subtle

I agree.

Being punched in the stomach is better than being kicked in the junk.

Doesn't mean I'm going to start lining up for gut punches any time soon.

There are people who enjoy getting kicked in the junk!

Yup, and those guys can't breed

I saw a video about a guy like that once. This guy had videos on youtube where people jumped on his stuff, had balls thrown at them and so on, and lastly there was a small clip about him becoming a father.
I wish I was joking. =(

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Subtle product placement Jim, subtle

I agree.

Being punched in the stomach is better than being kicked in the junk.

Doesn't mean I'm going to start lining up for gut punches any time soon.

There are people who enjoy getting kicked in the junk!

Yup, and those guys can't breed

I saw a video about a guy like that once. This guy had videos on youtube where people jumped on his stuff, had balls thrown at them and so on, and lastly there was a small clip about him becoming a father.
I wish I was joking. =(

Did he look like this guy?

Spoiler: BAWLS OF STEEL!