drednoahl said:
Ragsnstitches said:
To be honest, "consolised" generally means easy and unrewarding to play in my book. Bethesda softworks are fairly savvy though - having continued to support their modding community they could leave things out of the game that would be guaranteed to be added by modders and because of that not so much of a problem. Bioware on the other hand I think have made huge errors with their games working with EA, I suspect that enough of their fans don't trust them any longer and sales will not meet expectation. Gaining new fans at the expense of not meeting the expectations of existing core fans is a dangerous game; GTA IV sold well, but I don't know anyone who is looking forward to V enough to risk buying it at full price.
The key mistake made by those who like to wield the "entitled" card around in my opinion is that they seem to think folks like me want games to be designed specifically for core fans: that's a totally wrong assumption; we want choice. I had the same argument about anime over twenty years ago - the lack of a subtitled option for purchase led to massive piracy through fansubtitling which still persists today. When the option to play a game in my own style isn't in the game, well I'm not going to buy it am I? Devs and publishers expect me to buy it - that's entitled, but the truth of it is I'm simply not.
Players who have identified with and put vast amounts of time into a product shouldn't have to feel alienated "just because" devs want to make the game more accessible to a larger audience. Like a real life relationship, it's the little things that add up, and it's the little things that keep getting cut out of gamings' most popular franchises so instead of a stellar product we end up with mediocrity. Sure Bethesda Softworks or Bioware have delivered what they set out to, but I can't think of one reason why that should make them immune from receiving scathing criticism from the people who have supported them for so long and understand those games better often better than the devs do.
I put consolised in quotations in my first post to deliberately make note of it. Consolised is a buzz word coined by angry people to make other angry people angrier over a subject that makes them angry in the first place. I hate that word as it's to generalised and doesn't consider the functional things that have come out of making games for consoles. The console games haven't all been atrocious over the years and more recently that aspect of console gaming is waning. Developers and producers are seeing the success of games like Demons/Dark Souls (for it's classical trial and error difficulty curve and tasking but rewarding gameplay), Minecraft (with it's unconventional graphics and gameplay) and the Witcher (for showing that ports can be an improvement, and that people like a story that doesn't pamper their every action) and are taking note. These games and more will shape the next few years of game development... for better or worse.
Unfortunately, I can't defend or argue against the point of wanting choice. Everybody wants choice, and some developers try and give us choice, but the choices are limited by practicality. It is undeniable that over the last decade there has been a malign design ethos creeping into the industry of creating games for broad audiences and consequently diluting the flavour for the the core fans of the genre/series but it is also undeniable that the conditions for AAA gaming has also changed, making it a big investment. So playing it safe by appealing to people who normally wouldn't show an interest with you by adding hot topic gimmicks or functions to your games to peek their interests, has become a standard. Though as I said earlier, there are exceptions succeeding and bringing this ugly fallacy to the front, where it will be judged and hopefully repressed. Unfortunately I doubt it will be discarded.
As you said above though, the likes of Bethesda are being savvy about what they can and can't do, aiming to make as competent and memorable (for some) experience as possible while keeping themselves close and open to the modding community so that they can address the "core" issues for the long time fans without barring off the more recent console only fans (oblivion being a bit of a disaster in that sense). Personally, being a long term fan of TES as far back as Daggerfall, oblivion has been the only misstep and I stilled enjoyed it. Skyrim is what Oblivion wanted to be and more. Is it perfect? No. But I have seen improvements and I expect more in the future.
Bioware... I don't know about bioware. They have a history of some great games, but fucked up one sequel and ballsed up the ending of a trilogy and suddenly people hate bioware. I don't buy it. Bioware was never big with their community like Bethesda. They are a closed developer producing everything internally with little external influence bar their previous games successes. They never had an issue with developing a good game before, how can EA who is just the publisher be doing so much damage? Deadlines? They were always there. Demands by EA for change? I still think bioware games are more than a cut above other EA titles, even DA2. Personally, I think it's pressure to live up to their success in the past... it's too much for them and they buckled. Could it be the end for bioware and have they peaked? Maybe. That's the sad truth to business, it's not indestructible or infallible, regardless of its history. I would love to hear it from the mouths of the developers, and not some public rep.
J.d. Scott said:
Ragsnstitches said:
This is a thoughtful, insightful post - I generally agree with you in most situations. However, there are few things - I wouldn't paint every single thing with a broad brush. Things like online passes, anti-used gaming measures, et al are not across the board morally reprehensible.
Some are bad solutions to terrible problems (used games sales and piracy) - in these cases, the industry and the consumer need to work together to find a common solution. Neither side should endeavor to take money out of the pocket of the other. For example, would you accept an all-digital platform if the pricepoint for the games was lower - say closer to $50 at new and scaled down over time?
Some are simply reactions to the nature of the industry. The curve of sales of DLC on the y axis and time from release date on the x axis is almost a straight slash (unless I just bobbled my metaphor...), so releasing DLC as early as possible is simply the market responding to external forces. If they store the files on the disc, it's even more cost-effective. Now, there are cases where this is abused, but not all of them. In Capcom's case, they flat out said there were going to be DLC characters - does the fact that they stored them on the disc make them wrong inherently?
And some are just revenue generating mechanics. Some are stupid and blatant (Asura's Wrath), but others are giving you good value for your money, so they deserve to be paid as well. Every situation, every company is different. Let your mind and your dollar be your voice.
I made a remark on entitlement in a post earlier, I'll quote it here:
Ragsnstitches said:
Here's an attempt to concisely define the proper and improper use of the entitlement argument: Anything that is demanded in excess of what you paid for, based on preconceptions of the final product that did not meet YOUR standard, or self-convinced notions of the importance of your presence to the company, is an issue of entitlement.
Anything that is officially promised but not delivered, or delivered in shoddy condition, or delivered underhandedly or lacking respect to the paying consumer, is an issue where a consumers entitlement is actually not being fulfilled. A person has a right to demand what was offered once money has been exchanged and has a right not to be shafted for a quick buck (or to be treated like a pirate etc.).
Of course, these are very rough and need some working, but I believe a distinction needs to be made between what a consumer gets and what a consumer expects to get. They are distinctly different outcomes.
It's a tricky subject. I can't agree with being treated like a criminal just because criminals are doing criminal things somewhere else. I can understand the need to protect your property... but some of these systems in place are pushing it. They aren't a necessary evil, they are exploitative and oppressive to the consumer disguised as a means to counter piracy/2nd hand sales. They punish the consumer, tell us it's for our own good, while making it harder for us to enjoy their product... that doesn't make sense, and is unacceptable.
I agree contingencies are needed to stop piracy, though that will never happen in totality. Jim made a point a couple of weeks back about offering a better platform then the pirates... that means cutting out DRM, gutting intrusive systems like GfWL and refining the positive aspects of platforms like steam.
Online passes are an arbitrary response to used game sales... rather then taking a step back and seeing a way to reduce the price of new releases they just say we'll ask for more money from honest consumers. When people scoff at that, they site our resistances to their current contingencies as being counterintuitive to the industry.
So, let me get this straight. You aim to make games that consumers would be willing to buy in order to be profitable, but you aren't making enough money so look to find who's to blame. When you cherry picked a few candidates for finger pointing you proceed to implement systems to thwart them. That evidently doesn't work but you continue to push it on us, the honest consumer, because we haven't stopped buying your games... but you can't figure out why you still aren't making MORE money. So you start to blame the perfectly normal 2nd sales market, a secondary option for gamers around the world and a valid option for those who aren't particularly wealthy or don't have confidence in your product. You penalise potential future fans, for not taking a risk, by charging them more (defeating the purpose of 2nd hand sales). Then you wonder why people are getting angry at you, all you've done is try to make games they would like... oh wait, in your attempt to protect themselves from loss you started to put undue pressure on the only people who are actually supporting them and on potential future supporters, and even after not seeing an improvement you continue to force it on us and even have the gall to tell us we are being bad consumers.
Da fuck is dis shieeet!
/rant
Anyway, I also said earlier something along the lines of "We as customers do have choice, buy or not buy. We talk with our wallets. Pro-consumerists tell us this all the time (along with demanding transparency in the market, which we still don't have)", So I agree with you on that point.
"Let your mind and your dollar be your choice". Exactly. They are providing things for us because they want something from us... if they don't have what we want, they don't get what they want. If that upsets them, then it's their obligation to make changes, not ours to submit to their will.
mike1921 said:
Ragsnstitches said:
Well in the case of Skyrims UI, yeah you would have a right to complain. That system was slapped on generically for all platforms, not even trying to take advantage of a keyboards extra functionality. It's clunky and unintuitive, contrary to what the developers said it was.
I played elder scrolls IV and Skryim both on console (my sister wants to play, her computer is shit) before the PC and I have to say, the skyrim UI isn't even console-centric, it's just horrible shit all around, worst UI I've ever seen or used. I think it is so bad that I think bethesda should just pay the guys who made skyui some amount of money and patch it in on consoles (although for all I know that's impossible for some reason)
I actually own the PS3 version and aside from the lag issue (which seems to be resolved for me now) I had no real qualms with any thing. I wouldn't agree the UI is horrendous. It's not perfect and it could be worse. Though it could be better too. I still think it's better then oblivion though. That said, I would like a few more menus. It gets too cluttered, especially when it comes to gathering materials for crafting.
I played it for a bit on PC (borrowed it to see if my rig could handle it). The UI was clunky and even unresponsive. I found that the potential for hotkeys was not nearly as good as it could have been and it was just so, unintuitive to browse through.
