Jimquisition: Creative Freedom, Strings Attached

[Innegativeion]

Why should a game be criticised or scrutinised simply because it doesn't have a female protagonist?

Why shouldn't it?

Because the gender of the protagonist may have no impact on the narrative or gameplay of the game in question. To use the example of Puppeteer, I'd wager the game would be no different in either its narrative or gameplay had the protagonist been female, though I haven't played the game, I'm working under the assumption that the protagonist's gender is of no importance outside of aesthetics.

We should not be encouraging people to criticize or scrutinize a work of art "just because." If there is in fact, good reason that a female protagonist would have made a significant positive impact upon the game in question, then fair game.

Not every game needs to be a progressive political statement. Let's not forget that.

You're not really making a persuasive argument against, though. Saying there's no impact on the gameplay should still spark in the critical mind the question that if it's so unimportant, why are so many of them dudes?

I find it a bit unsound to be attacking specific developers for this sort of thing unless their games happen to be misogynist all around and in general. Like Jim said, the developers should have every right to choose what goes in their game.

And yes, people should have the right to question it, but,

I feel as though it's more like raging against the symptom rather than the disease. Puppeteer having a male protagonist, by my estimation, is due to male generally being the 'default'. Again, it's just a symptom. Unlike some games, it's really not disrespecting females in any way. Making a fuss over puppeteer saving money by including only one protagonist, and choosing a male one for a myriad of potential unknown reasons (perhaps artistic, perhaps marketing, perhaps because most of the developers were male) isn't going to make any huge waves in the push to make video games more female-inclusive. It's inconsequential, wasted effort if you ask me.

I dunno. It just seems silly, for a narrative-centric title like Puppeteer. I'm just musing.

 

[Thanatos2k]

There is an undercurrent flowing through this discussion that these questions are somehow important issues and MUST be answered by every game maker who ever makes a game with a male character, that every game must have a choice of genders of their main characters - and it's getting out of control.

There really isn't such an undercurrent. However, I have to ask, why not? How would it be awful if people did get this? How awful would it be? I mean, an underlying option of choice in a narrative where it ostensibly makes no difference?

I find it odd that a lot of guys want modifiable avatars in gaming and it has no scrutiny, but when people want to add boobs it's suddenly a big deal and a political statement and worst of all, it's "out of control."

If it makes no difference why do you care so much? Do you want actual female characters in the games or just something that looks female but acts androgynous? How does that help anyone?

 

[RoonMian]

After PAX and what happened there, I think we can all agree that this needed to be said.

What DID happen there?

 

[VanQ]

Because the gender of the protagonist may have no impact on the narrative or gameplay of the game in question. To use the example of Puppeteer, I'd wager the game would be no different in either its narrative or gameplay had the protagonist been female, though I haven't played the game, I'm working under the assumption that the protagonist's gender is of no importance outside of aesthetics.

We should not be encouraging people to criticize or scrutinize a work of art "just because." If there is in fact, good reason that a female protagonist would have made a significant positive impact upon the game in question, then fair game.

Not every game needs to be a progressive political statement. Let's not forget that.

You're not really making a persuasive argument against, though. Saying there's no impact on the gameplay should still spark in the critical mind the question that if it's so unimportant, why are so many of them dudes?

I'd like to say it's just chance, I really would like for it to be that sometimes the coin simply lands on heads more often than tails. But I know that's not the case. We all know why they're usually dudes. It's because the developers and publishers believe that games with male protagonists sell better.

And if they are risking large amounts of their capital on games with male protagonists then it's probably because they have data that supports that opinion.

I'm not trying to say we should never ask "why is there no playable female," all I'm saying is we shouldn't be asking this of every single game unless you also ask the same of every game without a playable male character. Other people in this thread have the right idea that this isn't a matter to be forced.

If you don't like a publisher's reason for not including a playable female protagonist then don't buy the game. It's really that simple. That's your vote on the matter and the publishers can damn well see it, even if you think they can't. The fact that they keep producing so many male characters seems to be proof of that.

Now don't go thinking I'm some evil mysoginist beast trying to hold down women folk, I'm here rolling yet another female toon in WoW and maining mostly female characters in MOBAs and I quite enjoyed the latest Tomb Raider and even bought and played Remember Me and am very much looking forward to Mirror's Edge.

Why is there no playable male protagonist in Mirror's Edge? We know there are male Runners. Why can't I choose to play one? Hmm. Equality.

 

[serious biscuit]

I dont get the fixation on gender in games, so most characters are male but lets face it, its still a mainly guys market even if more girls are playing games than before. But there are still strong female leads out there, sure not as many as people would like but its a start and its fantasy you're just pretending to be that person and dont think Ive heard and guys complaining there's no male Bayonetta, or people saying they wont read a book because the protagonist is the wrong gender. Now Im not saying its only girls who complain far from it, especially when it comes to over sexualisation of females in game its the male side of the audience for some reason generating sometimes unnecessary amounts of noise to make it clear that they care, now I think thats more sexist but I wont get into that, also they complain about that but no seems to bat an eyelash that no guy short of Arnold Schwarzenegger could look like Marcus Pheonix

 

[BabySinclair]

To throw a wrench into this...

It's impossible for a playble character (when playable) to have a gender other than the players. The player is part of the playable character, and the physical absolutes that defines the genders are impossible to measure on virtual character. Than logic follows that what the player identify as define the gender of the playable character.

And to make a counter-point to the above...

Scientifically speaking as an anthropologist gender isn't physically fixed. Nor is it this Male-Female dichotomy most people make it out to be. Sex is the genetic, and fixed, Man/Woman/Hermaphrodite (Intersexed) description of a person; (though with surgery we're having to take a look at how sexual reassignment surgery fits in with Sex and Gender but that's another topic.) Gender is the cultural expectations for biologically Male/Female/Hermaphrodite which is not fixed, can change daily or even hourly, and does not exist on as binary or on a linear tack. The expression of Gender is a combination of expressive traits, such as clothing, make-up, hair style, and actions (work, speech, way you walk, activities) that are assigned as Male, Female, or to another category. These are also cultural, Male traits in one culture may be Female traits in another.

A Man goes to a local field to play Rugby with some friends. No one would question that he's expressing Western Male traits. Should he later that night put on a dress, make-up, and go to a bar walking, talking, and acting how a Woman is perceived to act culturally, he is still a Man biologically, but his/her Gender is now Female.

For a fictional/virtual character they have a fixed Sex (by the anatomy they are assigned) but usually when it come to Gender it tends more towards the stereo-typical Male-Female Western cultural roles. While it is true that a gender profile of the character can be expressed while the player is in control, the degree to which the player can change the gender of the character is often very limited. The player often lacks the ability to influence dialogue or the actions of the PC in any real way to suggest that they are expressing a different gender, which is reinforced in dialogue and cut-scenes. This means that the Sex and Gender of the character is set by the designers, not the player. The player may be of a different Sex or Gender at the time but ultimately the character in the game is constrained by its programming and regardless of how players tries to being themselves into the role of the character, unless they are playing a life simulator game like the Sims or Second Life. In these special cases, it is possible for the player to assign the Sex and Gender of their avatar which may not always align itself with their Sex or standard Gender. Beyond that style of games, players do not have the tools to influence the gender of the PC, regardless of the player's own Gender. The player may control the actions of the character through most of the games, but what characters do in cut-scenes, in their dialogue, and the realm of actions a player can do are set by the designers, the designers ultimately control the gender of the character.

 

[Makabriel]

Be careful, Jim. People around here may think you're a Pagan if you go spouting beliefs in multiple deities.

O/T, my opinion on this is such: There are games created to put you in the shoes of a generic protagonist in which you create: Such as MMOs and games like Saint's Row.

Then there are storytelling games. games where you are directing the actions of the lead of the game. Last of Us, GTA, Two Souls, etc. These games are books or movies which we are active participants.

I didn't see this topic coming up wondering why Joel can't be Female. Or why can't I be Larry Croft? You're not playing yourself projected into the game, you're playing the life of a fictionalized character.

 

[Proverbial Jon]

I think you have taken the line: "It's impossible for a playable character (when playable) to have a gender other than the players." out of context. The point is that Gordon is female (at times), Joel is female (at times), Nilin is male (at times) and Heather is male (at times).

OK, point taken and understood.

But what you're saying is that, when playing games, there are clear behaviours that a female player would exhibit and different ones for males? I think we could argue that, quite simply, everyone is different, even within the genders. No one plays a game the same way or with the same mindset. How can you define which behaviours are down to gender and how many are down to pure individuality?

If placed under scrutiny my play style might be considered more feminine than those of some girls I know! Based purely on stereotypical assumptions of how a female might play, at any rate.

 

[Psychobabble]

I personally think that from now on all games should be forced to make their main protagonist a mixed race hermaphrodite. That way they can make a character everyone can identify with. Or at least all be equally alienated by.

 

[Thanatos2k]

It's impossible for a playble character (when playable) to have a gender other than the players. The player is part of the playable character, and the physical absolutes that defines the genders are impossible to measure on virtual character. Than logic follows that what the player identify as define the gender of the playable character.

Edit: What I'm saying is that if Half-Life 2 is played by someone identifying as female, Gordon Freeman is female in that case. If played by someone idenifying as male, Gordon is male.

That's retarded. A male character is always male, even if the player is female. Especially when there aren't any gender specific choices in the game or a male character acts in the way a man would.

Gordon Freeman does not become female or even more feminine simply because the player is a girl.

At what point in Half Life does Gordon Freeman act like "a man", really? If his reflection in a mirror and the gender pronouns used by all the other characters flipped would the game or the story change at all? Nope.

 

[Erttheking]

Why should a game be criticised or scrutinised simply because it doesn't have a female protagonist?

Why shouldn't it?

Well it does make it harder for developers to make the game they want when people are criticising it simply because it doesn't meet a gender quota. I have no doubt that many female characters and minorities were added to games simply to appease the white knights, rather than to enhance the story.

First of all, White Knight is getting to be an old term. Second of all, yes it's true that female and minority characters don't always enhance the story to a game. The problem is that male characters don't always enhance it either, but it doesn't stop the flood of them. No one is asking for a gender quota. We're asking for people to step out of their safe zones and to make a character besides a white brown haired white man in his mid 30s. SOME of them are good, but 90% of them kinda suck.

 

[deathjavu]

There's two arguments being made in this episode and they're both right.

One, that creators don't need to answer to or be cowed into making what people want them to make due to political correctness and other such demands.

Second, that everyone has the right to criticize others over their words and decisions.

HOW-EVER

There is an undercurrent flowing through this discussion that these questions are somehow important issues and MUST be answered by every game maker who ever makes a game with a male character, that every game must have a choice of genders of their main characters - and it's getting out of control. They could remake a movie about Pinocchio and someone would ridiculously ask "Why not a girl puppet?" And GTA, GTA is a game about criminals. Have you seen the ratios of how many people in jail are men vs women? It's about a 10 to 1 ratio. Stands to believe most people in a story about criminals would be the same. It's not like there's no women in the entire game! Why do we have to bend so far out of reality to accommodate political correctness just because? Sometimes these questions DO deserve flippant responses.

Because after all, as this episode has taught us, just because you asked a question doesn't make your question above reproach and beyond criticism itself. That's what these game makers are doing with their responses - criticizing your questions as not worth answering.

There's two massive problems with the argument you've just made.

The first and most obvious is that this "undercurrent" is only there in your opinion. People asking these questions may have said undercurrent. They also may not. But judging the substance of the argument they present based on your perceived conception of some wider movement is not discussing the issue in good faith. It's all too easy to dismiss rational points if you attribute the speaker some dark motive or sinister plot. Just take what's said on its own merits and address that. Isn't reading too much into things a big criticism of Sarkeesan or whatever her bloody name is?

Secondly, you just provided a soundly rational reason for why there were no female protagonists in GTA V, in a handful of sentences. It wasn't difficult or lengthy. What was stopping the developers from answering these questions with the same logical response? Seems easy enough to me. Sure some people will carry on bitching, but there's always someone who's displeased.

 

[Azex]

BASED JIM :Kreygasm:

for real tho, sweet ep as usual. hope you feel better soon

 

[Psychobabble]

I don't even remember the last Jimquisition where I nodded in agreement at literally every single statement he made. Good on yah, Jim. Everyone has the right to do and say whatever they want, and everyone else has the right to say whatever they want in response. It's the instant someone starts saying "you shouldn't be allowed to say that" that a problem starts emerging, but outside of that, let the free expression roll!

Which in all honesty sounds well and good. At least until you start thinking of the gaming industry as, dun dun dun, an INDUSTRY. Something that exists to make money. As soon as someone's "freedom of expression" starts to look like it will cost a company sales revenue, you can kiss the idea of designers keeping their creative freedom goodbye.

 

[Goliath100]

Snip

You...

snip

...and you, listen to him...

But what you're saying is that, when playing games, there are clear behaviours that a female player would exhibit and different ones for males? I think we could argue that, quite simply, everyone is different, even within the genders. No one plays a game the same way or with the same mindset. How can you define which behaviours are down to gender and how many are down to pure individuality?

My point demands that there is non "gendered behaviours".