Jimquisition: Desensitized to Violence

[DataSnake]

I don't usually comment videos but when I do I type something like this:

Jim, don't go into that fucked up territory of "any sane civilian should be afraid of guns." As a gamer and a gun enthusiast I am sick and tired of both sides trying to stomp one another. Gun nuts claiming that those so called violent video games cause the trouble and gamers suggesting that something's wrong with owning a firearm when being a civilian. This benefits no one, it only makes the valid points of discussion seem a bit less valid when mangled together with sich crap. I post same things every time someone from the gun community suggests that maybe "they" should look into that videogaming thing instead of guns owned by law abiding citizens. Of all the places containing gaming related opinions Jimquisition is least suitable for containing invalid arguments.

No, a civilian should DEFINITELY be scared of guns. My dad grew up on an Army base, and one of the first things they taught him was the rules for handling guns:
1. It's always loaded, even when you're sure it isn't
2. Don't point a gun at someone unless you intend to shoot them
This was, I remind you, an ARMY BASE. The MILITARY recognizes that guns aren't toys and should be handled with caution, and frankly I'd expect them to know as much on the subject as anyone.

 

[Valkrex]

I wasn't really put off when I saw the age gate, as I've seen some pretty crazy stuff during my time on the internet. But holy shit. Just hooooly shit. I was NOT prepared to see a guy kill himself. I almost got sick. I AM glad that Jim put that footage in though as it did a brilliant job of illustrating his point.

Thanks for being awesome Jim, and congrats on another great episode.

 

[UNHchabo]

I don't usually comment videos but when I do I type something like this:

Jim, don't go into that fucked up territory of "any sane civilian should be afraid of guns." As a gamer and a gun enthusiast I am sick and tired of both sides trying to stomp one another. Gun nuts claiming that those so called violent video games cause the trouble and gamers suggesting that something's wrong with owning a firearm when being a civilian. This benefits no one, it only makes the valid points of discussion seem a bit less valid when mangled together with sich crap. I post same things every time someone from the gun community suggests that maybe "they" should look into that videogaming thing instead of guns owned by law abiding citizens. Of all the places containing gaming related opinions Jimquisition is least suitable for containing invalid arguments.

No, a civilian should DEFINITELY be scared of guns. My dad grew up on an Army base, and one of the first things they taught him was the rules for handling guns:
1. It's always loaded, even when you're sure it isn't
2. Don't point a gun at someone unless you intend to shoot them
This was, I remind you, an ARMY BASE. The MILITARY recognizes that guns aren't toys and should be handled with caution, and frankly I'd expect them to know as much on the subject as anyone.

There's a difference between "handled with caution" and "terrified of". The vast majority of gun owners are responsible, and handle them properly, precisely because they handle them with caution. But there's no fear involved, once you're competent with handling them.

 

[J. MB]

Because I've seen A LOT of violent stuff on the internet already (including this video in higher quality), I didn't react to this video. But the first time I saw any of this stuff, I had the same reaction a lot of you have. The feeling in your stomach, it's kind of like a sick feeling but not quite.

Now anything violent in games or any other media just makes me laugh if anything because I know exactly how far away it is from the real thing, it's, as Jim said, a parody. It's silly stuff, and it will not desensitize you to violence. I'm sure I wouldn't be so casual about seeing any of this in real life, though I would probably be able to handle it a bit better. Who knows.

Great video, Jim!

 

[JaredXE]

I guess I am a bad person. I was not shocked, and even went "Cool" when I saw the footage. Then again, I am pretty pro-death in the first place, so this is definitely not due to desensitization from media.

 

[sammysoso]

Wow...I almost vomited when I saw the suicide, but I am glad that I stomached through it. Real life violence is almost always detestable, and using video games as a scapegoat is just disgusting.

This might be the best Jimquisition that you've ever done. I'm glad The Escapist let you do this.

 

[Bocaj2000]

Now I've almost never commented on a video on the escapist before. Hell I forgot I even had an account here until I tried to make one and found the name was taken. But I wanted to speak up here.

I watched the video and, seeing the warning of content, decided to watch it. I've never seen the video before, never heard of the event, or anything, and after watching it I had only one reaction...

"...that's it?"

Now before you start calling me heartless or evil or anything like that... I'm not. Or at least I try not to be. I care about others and so forth, but when I saw that video... it felt to me like the violence shown was no worse than what you'd see in some movies. A man holds a gun to his mouth, suddenly he drops with a pop and the camera loses track of him, and when you next see him he's on the ground, staring blankly, a few moments passing before blood starts dripping down his face.

That sounds exactly like a dramatic moment you'd see in a movie, and that's what I thought.

It has admittedly left me wondering what kind of person I am though, and if I've really become more jaded to some things than I thought I was. Why didn't I react? Why did I see it and just think "What, that's all?"? Is it because he fell and the actual moment of death wasn't seen? Was it because it appeared to be relatively clean and there weren't guts all over the place? Was it because I saw it as a videoclip instead of actually in person? Was it because of games AND movies desensitizing me or making me jaded with over-the-top things?

I have no idea. And I'm not saying Videogames cause violence either, just like Rock and Roll didn't cause satanism way back when. But when the media as a whole may have left me jaded and/or desensitized to that videoclip... it does leave me wondering...

...what does it say about me?

You're desensitized. It's that simple. Not in a sociopath way like the media puts it but in other ways. You were probably expecting a lot more than what was actually shown such as the things you see on 4chan.

However, sensitivity to death fluctuates. By the way you described your situation, that video wasn't "real" to you. Now you know that it happened and that it is true. But the reality- the weight- of the situation didn't kick in. This has several reasons. The primary reason is that you have a huge disconnect to the situation on a personal level. You are siting behind a screen watching the suicide of someone you don't know. You immediately compared it to a movie and makeup instead of accepting it as the death of celebrity.

You also mentioned that it wasn't gory, and therefore not that shocking. In a sense, I see how you feel. It didn't "click" for me until I saw the stream of blood pour out of his nose. It was that bit of subtlety that I saw the weight of the situation. If it was a gore filled mess of brain and skull, I don't think it would have the same effect.

So, yes, you are desensitized. You'll grow out of it though.

 

[abell]

snip

What you're talking about isn't so much the reinforced behaviour making it easier for people to take a life, but for them to get into a state where they disassociate themselves from reality.

Sure, I'm willing to agree with that. After all, how you phrase it doesn't matter if someone ends up dead. It actually works better when considering the dissociative state that those mass killers that actually survive police, or their own weapons, seem to be in. And I agree that a videogame is no substitute for real world training. I said as much in a followup post. But, less effective than actual training does not mean not effective. And it's more available than a gun is for a lot of these individuals.

 

[mgirl]

Wow. Excellent episode that makes a point, rather brutally as well. Best way to fight back against brutal accusations I would say, with brutal evidence. I mean, I've been gaming since I was a kid, racked up thousands of game 'kills' but the second that guy even got the gun out I couldn't watch and felt physically ill. I hate guns, am terrified of them, thank god I live in the UK. Oh, and thank god for jim.

 

[Erttheking]

And to those who say that video games desensitize people, I give you, Geoff Lazer (That' actually his middle name) Ramsey. One of the original founding members of the company known as Roosterteeth, one of the heads of the website Achievement hunter, and a very big fan of Halo, video games in general, and a husband and FATHER! Now, watch this video of him trying to watch the Dead Island trailer.

<youtube=rv-SQc6LA2E>

 

[I Max95]

woah, wait a minute here...Jim has a step-son?
...i'll be honest THAT was th most surprising part of the video for me

on another note, I have seen that clip before, still disturbing the second time

 

[Stryc9]

No, a civilian should DEFINITELY be scared of guns. My dad grew up on an Army base, and one of the first things they taught him was the rules for handling guns:
1. It's always loaded, even when you're sure it isn't
2. Don't point a gun at someone unless you intend to shoot them
This was, I remind you, an ARMY BASE. The MILITARY recognizes that guns aren't toys and should be handled with caution, and frankly I'd expect them to know as much on the subject as anyone.

Why should I as a civilian be scared of guns? If ANY person is properly trained in the handling and use of a gun there is nothing to be scared of. The military isn't the only place to receive such training, you can sign up for a gun safety course through you local sheriff's department or at any store with a sporting goods department.

They teach you to treat every gun as if it's loaded, not to point a gun at anything you don't intend to shoot, to keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire, all the same rules they taught your dad in the military. The average civilian can handle a gun safely with a little education. Guns are not something everyone except the police and military should be afraid of and saying so is just plain stupid. Responsible gun owners are not crazy people who like to have guns because 'Murrica Fuck Yeah! that want to go out kill everything in sight. Responsible gun owners buy and collect guns for a number of reasons. Some people just like to go out and do a little target practice, some people like to hunt, some people even collect certain guns because they see them as works of art and just like to look at them.

So don't tell me, a responsible gun owner, who has done no military service but did take a class that I should be scared of my legally obtained and responsibly handled guns.

 

[1337mokro]

Not so much shocked as kind of angry. Comes with the line of work.

Not only did the camera man keep rolling to make SURE he got it all on tape, we also have this man who wanted to make his death as public, dramatic and traumatizing as possible.

Disgusting is the only word I have for it quite simply. A disgusting act made more disgusting by the attention it eventually got.

-sic

All the evidence you've seen hu? Meaning which evidence?

It's an easy thing to say you have evidence it's a difference to show it. Anecdotal retelling doesn't count. Quotes, links, sources that is evidence.

I take particular problems with the statement about games being murder training simulators. Mostly because off an evidence-less post and the complete discontinuation between game and actual use of firearms. There is a reason why soldiers don't get sent out to war after playing 80 hours of COD.

I wholly advice you to get someone you know who has never fired a gun, but loves shooters/violent games and take em out to a gunrange somewhere, observe the absolute lack of knowledge and utter inexperience of the person who according to you has spent long hours training for this.

 

[I Max95]

And to those who say that video games desensitize people, I give you, Geoff Lazer (That' actually his middle name) Ramsey. One of the original founding members of the company known as Roosterteeth, one of the heads of the website Achievement hunter, and a very big fan of Halo, video games in general, and a husband and FATHER! Now, watch this video of him trying to watch the Dead Island trailer.

<youtube=rv-SQc6LA2E>

he was also in the army

...just saying

 

[Rellik San]

Why should I as a civilian be scared of guns? If ANY person is properly trained in the handling and use of a gun there is nothing to be scared of. The military isn't the only place to receive such training, you can sign up for a gun safety course through you local sheriff's department or at any store with a sporting goods department.

So don't tell me, a responsible gun owner, who has done no military service but did take a class that I should be scared of my legally obtained and responsibly handled guns.

As a responsible gun owner, perhaps you can tell me, for what purpose a civilian would need a military grade assault weapon?
And no hunting isn't one of them. I've argued before the point of gun control isn't to limit the civilians and collectors with legitimate interest, but to prevent the unsuitable candidates from getting them; a common misconception in the UK is that you can't get a gun, but the truth is, it's very easy to get one, there are plenty of shooting clubs and the licence and application cost is £50 for 5 years. So we have nothing stopping anyone from getting a gun, yet we have laws and restrictions in place, whatever you may say about our violent crime rate, the number of those crimes committed with firearms is low and low for a reason.

 

[gamerguy20097]

That bit was depressing but I wouldn't say it made me horrified or sick to my stomach; but than again I have grown to hate my fellow man over the years so that could be why.

 

[GentleCoatHanger]

I've seen the footage before, but watching it again in this context really does drive the point home in a visceral way. Thanks, Jim, for having the balls to put it this starkly.

 

[abell]

As a responsible gun owner, perhaps you can tell me, for what purpose a civilian would need a military grade assault weapon?
And no hunting isn't one of them. I've argued before the point of gun control isn't to limit the civilians and collectors with legitimate interest, but to prevent the unsuitable candidates from getting them; a common misconception in the UK is that you can't get a gun, but the truth is, it's very easy to get one, there are plenty of shooting clubs and the licence and application cost is £50 for 5 years. So we have nothing stopping anyone from getting a gun, yet we have laws and restrictions in place, whatever you may say about our violent crime rate, the number of those crimes committed with firearms is low and low for a reason.

Apparently, it's that time. The AR-15 is not an M-16. An AR-15 is a semi-automatic weapon, the M-16 is select fire, which means that it fires semi-auto, and full-auto. It is very difficult to own a full-auto weapon in this country and has been since the 30's. They're considered Class 3 weapons, they're tightly regulated by the ATF and there's a crap ton of hoops to jump through to get one. The AR-15 and the M-16 are similar in a lot of their design, but, the elements that make it full-auto makes it a different weapon. Think of them as cousins, at best. So, almost no one owns a military grade assault weapon. The best you can argue is that they're military style, but, that just means it looks like a military gun, not that it is one. As for why you'd want an AR-15? They're very versatile, you can easily add a whole bunch of gadgets to it (they've been described as a barbie doll for men), ammunition for it is relatively cheap, it has very minimal recoil, due to the small size of the round, it's enjoyable to shoot, and, should you find yourself in the middle of a riot, like Korean storeowners during the LA riots, you could probably due a decent job of dissuading people from harming you and yours, and your property. However, the AR would be no more effective at that than a Ruger Mini-14. Of course, we could get into conversations of piston operated vs direct impingement, or styles of extractor and breaches, but, I highly doubt that's what you mean. Unless, you're actually upset about semi-auto weapons entirely?

http://ruger.com/products/mini14RanchRifle/models.html

And thank you, I will say what I like about the UK's violent crime problem. If I remember correctly, it's worse than the US and all of the EU? What difference does it make if you're robbed at gunpoint, or at bat point? Is rape less terrible at knifepoint, than with a gun at your back? There is no moral argument that the method used to commit a crime makes the crime worse. Where is your moral superiority coming from there?

 

[DataSnake]

Why should I as a civilian be scared of guns? If ANY person is properly trained in the handling and use of a gun there is nothing to be scared of. The military isn't the only place to receive such training, you can sign up for a gun safety course through you local sheriff's department or at any store with a sporting goods department.

They teach you to treat every gun as if it's loaded, not to point a gun at anything you don't intend to shoot, to keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire, all the same rules they taught your dad in the military. The average civilian can handle a gun safely with a little education. Guns are not something everyone except the police and military should be afraid of and saying so is just plain stupid. Responsible gun owners are not crazy people who like to have guns because 'Murrica Fuck Yeah! that want to go out kill everything in sight. Responsible gun owners buy and collect guns for a number of reasons. Some people just like to go out and do a little target practice, some people like to hunt, some people even collect certain guns because they see them as works of art and just like to look at them.

So don't tell me, a responsible gun owner, who has done no military service but did take a class that I should be scared of my legally obtained and responsibly handled guns.

I didn't (and I suspect Jim didn't either) mean scared as in "when you see a gun you shit your pants, scream and run away", more as in "you would never do something like this [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/03/savannah-ramirez-accidentally-shoots-brother_n_2403488.html] because you understand that guns should be handled with care".

 

[UNHchabo]

As a responsible gun owner, perhaps you can tell me, for what purpose a civilian would need a military grade assault weapon? And no hunting isn't one of them.

"Assault weapon" is a term made up by the gun control lobby to confuse the public into banning "scary-looking" firearms:

From Josh Sugarmann, one of the gun-ban lobbyists: The weapons' menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion over fully automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons?anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun?can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons.

The legal definition of "assault weapons" covers certain semi-auto firearms based on cosmetic or ergonomic features like adjustable stocks and pistol grips, and have nothing to do with the lethality of the firearm.

Semi-auto rifles are incredibly useful for defense; it's possible to buy a semi-auto rifle that operates just like a pistol, and use pistol magazines and ammo, but has a long barrel and a stock, so that it's more stable. I'd love to get one; this would mean I'm less likely to miss my intended target and hit something else. However, these rifles would be classified as "assault weapons", so I would only be allowed to buy a much more powerful "hunting rifle".

I've argued before the point of gun control isn't to limit the civilians and collectors with legitimate interest, but to prevent the unsuitable candidates from getting them; a common misconception in the UK is that you can't get a gun, but the truth is, it's very easy to get one, there are plenty of shooting clubs and the licence and application cost is £50 for 5 years. So we have nothing stopping anyone from getting a gun, yet we have laws and restrictions in place, whatever you may say about our violent crime rate, the number of those crimes committed with firearms is low and low for a reason.

My firearms are not for hunting; they're for defense of myself and my family. So while you may be able to go down to a shooting club and use a number of different firearms, how many can you actually keep in your home? Will you be arrested and prosecuted if you use them in defense of your family?