Jimquisition: Diversity? LIEversity!

Abnaxis

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From what I'm picking up, there aren't any options for customization, are there?

Saying it's expensive to add a female model is complete bunk. Saying it's expensive to create a whole 'nother interface, whole cloth, to allow users to customize their avatars when you were only planning on cloning the main protagonist....actually does kinda sound expensive.
 

InsanityRequiem

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If Ubisoft went out and said "We built the character first before making the setting for the game" instead of their bullshit "It costs too much money to do something that other, less wealthy companies can do" I'd just say that Ubisoft needs to plan better. But by going with the "Too much money" route, all I see is that Ubisoft has a horrible corporate ethic that wastes more money than they have to.

Heck, all they could have said what that their initial planning all the way in the beginning of AC:U's development didn't have a female character idea brought up. At least that's more understandable than the "Too much money" bullshit.
 

Malisteen

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If they wanted a cast exclusively consisting of the same interchangeable white dude with a little bit of stubble, that's fine. I mean that would get some blowback and well-deserved criticism, but at least it would be them making a decision and owning up to it. There is no 'get out of criticism free' button, though, and their pathetic excuse to try and blame lack of money for it just made them look like idiots. Worse, it made them look like bigots, who think that all of us are idiots. Poor move.
 

An Ceannaire

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C.S.Strowbridge said:
I disagree with one point. Those that say, "Dur... Social justice warrior" as if it were an insult is an idiot.
The term "Social Justice Warrior" doesn't exactly have positive gravitas on the internet. Mainly due to the actions of the more "unhinged" members of Tumblr and similar sites.
 

Canadamus Prime

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Jun 17, 2009
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grimner said:
canadamus_prime said:
When it comes to Assassin's Creed Unity they could've just said that a female protagonist wouldn't have fit with the setting and time period. Sure they could've still made a female protagonist work with that setting and time period, but it would've been a much more valid excuse than saying it's too expensive.
Someone already pulled out Charlotte Corday as a reply, but I rather point out Assassin's Creed own canon, which has a woman serving as captain of the templars in the late 12th century, or Ezio happily recruiting female pupils in Brotherhood and Revelations.
KazeAizen said:
canadamus_prime said:
When it comes to Assassin's Creed Unity they could've just said that a female protagonist wouldn't have fit with the setting and time period. Sure they could've still made a female protagonist work with that setting and time period, but it would've been a much more valid excuse than saying it's too expensive.
It might've actually been worse because, according to history buffs, women actually did have a very active and apparently impactful role during the French Revolution. So actually when you come across that kind of info its even more insulting that they don't have a female protagonist. Sure not every game needs one but when making a game, especially historical fiction, there are certain things to take into account. I'm willing to bet what happened is something like Jim said. Just the way they actually develop. Their method of development probably would cost them a good amount of money to include a female playable character in the game. Which in that case means no one even thought about it early enough in production to prioritize it, therefore allowing them to budget for it. With as much money as they make any half assed budget guy could budget out the money to make a female protagonist and still get the game the way they want it.

However it would appear that its the train scenario from Back to the Future Part 3. They've past the point of no return and they can't turn back now without possibly screwing themselves over or digging a gigantic pit of debt. So when I hear them saying that its "too expensive" what I'm hearing is. "We never planned on it to begin with and we've reached a point in development where it would cost more to put her in then to exclude her." Of course if history is any indicator a lot of the damage from this stuff can be mitigated if you get a decent PR team. Which apparently Ubisoft also doesn't have the money for.
Alright already! I stand corrected. It would've been a even shittyer excuse.
 

dangoball

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At first there was only one evil, Activision. Ruling from on high it trampled the dreams and souls of us PC gamers, till a new force stood up to it's tyranny and overthrown its reign of terror. This valiant warrior was known as Electronic Arts. At first a bastion of virtue and developer creativity, once he unseated the hated Activision, EA himself became what he fought against - an oppressor of ideas, a devourer of smaller studios, a destroyer of souls. 'Twas until we, the downtrodden games, cried out in multitudes of voices as one that EA finally beheld its own corruption and ever so slowly walked the path of redemtion, albeit superficial at first.
The tempting seat of evil does not take well to being emptied and as such drawn another once radiant heart to itself. In the shadows of EA's rule, Ubisoft slowly gained power and gradually earned ire. Now the time is finally ripe and Ubisoft gave in to it's vices, becoming the new object of scorn of gamers and critics alike.
 

thespyisdead

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i think that ubisoft is just catering to idiots, and the idiots are the ones who will eat ubisoft's bullshit, and as you can see, the idiots are numerous enough to keep it in business
 

DrOswald

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Why doesn't assassins creed unity have a female protagonist option? Because you only have 1 main character in a narrative focused on 1 character? This is not Saints Row or Skyrim where nothing about the main character actually matters to the story. Assassins Creed has always been a static narrative, as opposed to the mad lib western RPG approach to story telling. You get one story from Assassins Creed.

I find this entire conversation bizarre. I can understand why the thing first kicked up. I, like everyone else, assumed you just picked a avatar for the co-op from a list. If that was the case then a female avatar would certainly be called for and the rage would be justified.

But Ubisoft decided to be clever, taking advantage of their unique medium to make it so each avatar is the custom version of Arno, the main character. Each person sees the other guys as generic assassins while seeing themselves as Arno. This is clever and good game design, maximizing development resource utility to bring us a huge value add. In the current AAA environment of stupidly overblown budgets and insane sales expectations, it is good to see a developer being smart about how they make their game, saving money and time where they can so they can deliver us a better game for less development dollars. This is something you have been harping on for years Jim. Smart game design that cuts down the bloated AAA budget model.

I also thought this would end the controversy. They had a good reason all the assassins were men and almost identical, they all represent the same man. It would be very strange to have a woman avatar representing a male character which the controlling player sees as male. It also would not address the core problem of exclusivity because female players would still be unable to play as a female assassin. I mean, if they wanted to include a female assassin they would have to create a second protagonist in a single protagonist story. Perhaps they should have made the main character female from the start, but it would be unreasonable to demand that they make a second redundant protagonist in a static narrative. Right?

Boy was I wrong. People started to demand just that. Why didn't they make a female playable character? Because why in the world would you create a redundant main character? The fact that they even considered it is bizarre.

Imagine if this sort of logic was applied to any other type of fixed narrative:

J.K. Rowling is so sexist. Why didn't she consider inclusivity from the start? Clearly she should have written a second version of the Harry Potter series, "Harrina Potter", so her female readers could read about a witch instead of a wizard. What? That would be too much work? What a lazy writer. #womenaretoohardtowrite

Or what about movies? Why couldn't they have made a female version of Django in Django Unchained? Too much work? So lazy! #womenaretoohardtofilm

Or what animation? Why couldn't they have created a female version of Hiccup for little girls in How to Train Your Dragon? #womenaretoohardtoanimate

I just don't get it. Is there something I am missing? How is demanding genderswapable protagonists in a fixed narrative in any way reasonable? I mean, demand that they be female in the first place if you have to, but how can you justify demanding both genders?
 

Abnaxis

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YoungZer0 said:
I don't think the devs could do right with an attitude like this. You want the truth? They probably couldn't be bothered. They didn't want it. The end.

It was never an officially confirmed feature, so they don't owe you any apoligy. And yet you demand it and then you're insulted when you get one.

They don't OWE you features they never promised in the first place, the only thing they owe you is a game that works and Ubisoft already had trouble delivering that in the past. Yet you want them to waste (yes, waste) resources and time (probably already crunching), so you can see female avatars next to you?

Stop spreading misinformation. You don't see yourself as a different avatar, you see yourself as the main character. Only your coop partners see you as a different avatar. So why would it make sense to have the people next to you running around as female when they are actually playing a male character?

It made sense in Watch_Dogs as you had to hide as a random NPC and limiting that to only male characters would break the gameplay.

This is not even a gender issue, it's an entitlement issue. And before any of you tell me how women feel about this (because you all asked a woman about her opinion on this first, right?). I asked my female gamer friends about this. Guess what? They were all insulted and mad ... until I told them that they don't see their avatar. They (4 of them) didn't see the point of "controversy". I wasn't mad when I first heard it. I thought it was a missed opportunity, but when I heard the details about the story, I couldn't help but side with the devs. 'specially after the ridiculous reaction this supposed controversy got.

What upsets me the most is that you guys are biting the hand that feeds you. You, the Political correctness crowd, Ubisoft is pandering to you guys. That's why their games are so boring and so afraid to make a statement about ... anything. They are afraid to hurt your little feelings as anything that might offend you, offends you.

You had an arab, italian, native-american, african-french woman, irish and an african-american man and you dare say Lieversity? How much more diversity can you get?

Better "check your privilege". Before this new assassin, there was an equal amount of black and white assassins. But you wouldn't write about that, right?

Right now, you're on the same level as the people who demanded DmC: Devil May Cry to be changed.
Erm...have you played Assassin's Creed? Unless later titles have greatly deviated from the previous ones, the entire game is third person. You spend literally the entire game, excluding cutscenes, with your avatar in the middle of the screen.
 

GamemasterAnthony

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An Ceannaire said:
PirateRose said:
Pfft, if it was really a money issue, having more women voice actors would probably save these companies a ton.

I bet you Jennifer Hale got paid less than Mark Meer for voicing Commander Shepard.
What are you basing that assumption on?
Well, there was a recent article (I don't remember which one or in regards to which industry) where females were being paid less than their male counterparts in the same field, despite having similar skills. I suspect that comment was in relation to that.

Still...this is just pathetic on Ubisoft's part. Interestingly enough, I heard somewhere that Ubisoft doesn't want to release any games for the WiiU until that console sells more. At this point, with this controversy hanging over Ubisoft like the Sword of Damocles, I don't think Nintendo will WANT to have Ubisoft release any games for the WiiU until they clean up their act. Especially now that Nintendo is looking pretty good with how they presented themselves at E3, saying they don't want Ubisoft to make anything for the WiiU until they DO clean up their act could send a strong message. Just my 2 Rupee on that.
 

Yossarian1507

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Skull Bearer said:
canadamus_prime said:
When it comes to Assassin's Creed Unity they could've just said that a female protagonist wouldn't have fit with the setting and time period. Sure they could've still made a female protagonist work with that setting and time period, but it would've been a much more valid excuse than saying it's too expensive.
Considering the most famous assassin of the era was a woman that bullshit is so far gone I don't know where to start.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_Corday
Who got caught and executed for the act 4 days later, so unless the assassination of Marat is the climax of the game, she would be a poor protagonist. I'm guessing she will be in this game as a more or less important NPC.

What I want to know, is how long is AC game development time. They are making one game every year, so perhaps they have so little time between every game, that time (an "expense") was running too low to do so. This obviously leads to an argument against making yearly installments of the franchise, but that's a topic for another day.

As for female protagonists (again): Well, I'm going to be a devil's advocate here - Ubisoft published a game with a strong female protagonist once, it was called Beyond Good and Evil. It was critically acclaimed, and most people have fond memories of it... But it didn't sell, and as much as we would like games to be fun/art/creative drive first, this IS a business, which must bring profits. Therefore, I understand, that somewhere around, among Ubi execs there is that thought, that they tried it, and it didn't work, so let's stick to the guns we know will sell. Sad, but a real possibility.

Jim says that Ubi doesn't let us vote with our wallets. Well, let's vote then by buying game from someone who do. You want's more female protagonist? Buy games with one. Even on a principle. I'm a huge murder mystery game fan, so I'm buying every single one I learn about, even if sometimes it's a complete bust, or just okay (Murdered: Soul Suspect being the latest example). I want to see more of them from competent devs. That won't happen if there will be no signs from the market, that they do want them. So go, do it, buy recent games with female protagonists. Go buy Remember Me, Beyond: Two Souls, or ton of really well written adventure games featuring strong female leads (Cognition and Blackwell series, are good more recent examples, not to mention older games like Syberia, Still Life and The Longest Journey). As long as it will be CoD or Gears of War selling the most, publishers will think, that's all that people want. Sad but true.

captcha: agree to disagree. I have a feeling this will be a general conclusion of this discussion.
 

Sigmund Av Volsung

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Dec 11, 2009
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Going to take fire for this, but what the hell.

Jim, I have ultimate respect for you, so please do not take this comment as malicious. I am here for discussion value. I wouldn't have minded if there were female characters or characters of varying ethnicities in Unity.

However, I felt that you missed out on some important factors in the video:

-You yourself have stated that publishers suffer from tunnel vision; they only speak in sales figures which are provided by people who have no clue what gaming is to executives, investors, etc. , who also see gaming as nothing more than pure business. It can be said that because Assassin's Creed Liberation (and HD) didn't sell all that well, they considered that it was because of the female protagonist(which was one of the strengths of the game included in the marketing and the blurb).

In that case, I feel it would be unfair to criticise the developers. I feel that the fault is the publishers, because Ubisoft is generally quite a diverse company(first game had an Arab protagonist, 3rd had a Native American, IV had Freedom Cry where you play as a former slave out for justice, Child of Light featured a little girl for a protagonist, Rayman has quite the varied cast, Beyond Good and Evil is always used as an example for its well-written female lead etc.), and I feel that it is because of the executives that they are making such decisions. Consider Watch_Dogs, one of their most successful and heavily-marketed IPs: white male protagonist. Assassin's Creed: white(r) male protagonist(s). They showed that they can pull off games with well-written and diverse characters, but they are playing safe for their key franchises, because the publishers don't want to take any risks(see successful games as having only white male dudes for protagonists) to maximise profit.

-It isn't expensive for a smaller studio to animate and well, create a female protagonist, because those studios are small. The fact that several teams are working on Unity means that the co-ordination alone becomes costly; getting all those people to work together to create a new set of models, animations(because there are clear biological differences, especially in a game where the protagonist is as active as Assassin's Creed) is costly in itself.

-From what Ubisoft have done recently, the 4-identical co-op partners are there because I think they want to do the same sort of 'seamless' multiplayer that they did for Watch_Dogs. The way it was done there was that only the skin of Aiden Pearce changed, and only towards other players(the principal player, the observer saw themselves as Aiden Pearce, and other players as random NPCs, and vice versa(depending on perspective)). This means that they would probably require another campaign just for the female character, or a GTA V sort of affair where you have multiple protagonists. Basically, if this sort of Co-op is what they are going for, then it makes sense that they would have to spend a lot of money(in co-ordination as well) just to write another campaign.

Don't get me wrong, I am really tired of white male dudes in all of gaming as of late. It's why, when given the choice in RPGs, I tend to prefer playing a female character, because I am interested in how differently the game will play from that perspective, dissimilar to my own.

I just don't think that the devs themselves were this malicious as to outright cut out female characters because of laziness and other suggested reasons. It's important to know that in large enough groups, "you shouldn't mistake ignorance for malice".

I am doing this for the sake of argument and fair representation. I am not some paranoid "eugh, women in games" dipshit, so please do not judge me as such, as I know people on the internet have a tendency to pile on at the slightest sign of quasi-opposition.

Thank You.
 

FightingFurball

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Hmm...

I think Ubisoft has a point with the costs. The Assassins Creed series is heavily narrative driven with a lot of cutscenes and fully voiced text. For a female protagonist you wouldn't only need her lines done again but most of the lines soken to her by other people because people tend to adress females and males differently. Which would mean writing a lot of the dialogue anew and voicing it afterwards.
The counter examples were badly chosen because many of them were either basically mute (for example Saints Row) or multiplayer titles which only need a very basic array of grunts and shouts.
While I agree that the model and texture debate has merit, so has the argument about the voice acting getting expensive.
 

orangeapples

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You know Ubisoft was in damage control when they started their response with the we are a diverse group of people of different nationalities, religions and creeds. Just because your company is diverse doesn't mean you are exempt from making sure your games diverse.



Now I'm no expert, but that looks like 4 different dudes to me. different facial hair, different posture and different nose shape all say different dude. Heck, the guy in green seems to be taller than the guy in blue and the guy in green is further from the camera.

Not only that, but it doesn't make sense in context. The whole point is that Arno didn't do it alone. So who was he working with? Is Arno going to just take the credit for the work these other people put in? Doesn't make sense with all of the anonymity that is part of being an Assassin, they don't wear the hoods because they think it looks cool after all.

As fun as it is to make fun of Call of Duty, they have customizable female characters. They did it despite the outcry that it would break the game because the female hitbox would be slightly smaller and people playing as a female character would have an advantage. Despite the community saying that females in the military is unrepresentative (which was untrue), and many of them screaming to not include female characters they went and did it anyway. And the truth is that it didn't change things at all. The only difference is that you will occasionally hear a female voice yell something out in the multiplayer.

When you have 9 studios working on the game, you cannot claim to be short on resources. Unless Ubisoft is run by a bunch of idiots and have 1 studio in charge of female character models and voices, but that'd just be silly... Oh god I hope that is just silly...
 

Crazy Zaul

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That dev that posted on Reddit about this and how 'expensive' has a different meaning in dev jargon was actual pretty believable. He may have been using the blind them with science method but it was still convincing.
 

Thanatos2k

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Can I make an episode request? I think it's time for another lambasting of Konami, especially after their latest stunt and no-show E3:

http://operationrainfall.com/2014/06/13/jeffs-musings-konami-lost-e3-2014-trust/
 

RA92

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What I find hilarious is people bringing reasons of cost, market viability, potential audiences, etc when it comes to a discussion of female characters, but throw a tantrum when their favorite franchise has been turned into an FPS due to the same reasons.
 

Falterfire

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Silentpony said:
That was such a bullshit excuse. Animating women?! I'm as rabid a Mass Effect fan as can exist, so I call such hard bullshit on that!
But writing a good female character? I wouldn't accept that as an excuse, but I can see it being a problem. Video Games have two types of females; prostitutes/sluts/over-sexualized or princesses in need of rescue.
No, there's actually three. You forgot 'Tough no-nonsense lady who don't need no man until the protagonist comes along and shows her that not all men are evil and they fall in love.' Pretty much any shooter game that wants a love interest has one.
 

MCerberus

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Oh, and to all the people saying it's not really a big deal, it doesn't directly hurt people. You're sort of right.

However, Ubisoft's reasoning is the exact sort of "default person" that perpetrates institutional bias. The sort of feedback loop that keeps pretty much all media defaulting on grizzled generic white guy. There's a lot of psychologically damaging and outright stupid things that happen as a side effect to it.


Point being, there is an actual big ****ing deal that needs to be called out with them clinging to grizzled generic white guy. I'm actually worried Ubi has lost all knowledge on writing good characters past GGWG after the MASSIVE BLANK IDIOCY of your sister from Watch Dogs.