Jimquisition: Diversity? LIEversity!

kickyourass

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You know game companies REALLY need to start thinking harder before speaking on these subjects. Honestly if Ubisoft had just said, "There's no female protagonists in this because we didn't want to make any," That, while still pretty much not ok, would have been at least a LITTLE more respectable than try to claim something that was so blatantly and pathetically a massive lie.
And as Jim said if it's somehow NOT a lie, if Ubisoft's way of putting together games is so ham-fisted, bloated and just stuck up it's own ass that making on of the female character models playable would be a genuinely worrying cost to than that almost makes it worse. Cause at that point Ubisoft might have the absolute worst, unmanageable mess of a money management system on the face of the fucking planet, and they are hemorrhaging money from every orifice.
 

doomed89

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I'm a white male and 24 and frankly when I see 4 main characters that I can tell apart it's just pathetic and frankly seems like a boring game design, having 4 identical characters, what's the point.

That's what it comes down to for me. I don't know about wanting to be more represented or whatever but I don't get why people see that as the only point, FF7 was so popular because it's characters which instantly distinguishable where FFXII is less popular and gets flak for having identical characters. Now if you look at the gameplay itself, FF7 characters weren't super different in gameplay, pretty much just stats and limits were different but it will still something and artistically they were way different and more then that they were different in the story, each had a their own backstory and were interesting.

Now I know comparing an rpg to an action game isn't the best comparison but the point stands. Having all the characters the same makes gameplay less fun and makes the story less interesting. It's just boring, plain and simple. Oh and I'm totally sick of companies with the biggest game budget saying things are too expensive, seriously how pathetic are you with money management.
 

David Chadwell

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The only ubisoft games I know I've purchased are Buck Bumble and Beyond Good & Evil. I don't see how they want my dollar.
 

aelreth

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If they do the right thing, they will have to explain why they were doing the wrong thing time and time again.
 

Fyffer

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I'd totally put up with uplay for for a decent playable female character. That is how desperate I am these days.
 

Corran006

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BlueJoneleth said:
I think we could use more female protagonists, but I also think games could have more female enemies. 99% of grunts in most videogames are guys.
when I suggest that I get but that would be violence vs woman and other such things so its shot down. I was speaking to someone and they said they should not even be hostages at all in the new rainbow six, so they are just off the table according to them.
 
Mar 26, 2008
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I'm pretty sure it didn't break Epic's back to have Anya and Sam in as playable characters in Gears Of War 3. They are dressed similar to the men and similarly animated, except for their sway in the walking animation and their wait animations. Actually getting to play as them in the campaign was a bit of a welcome break from playing as the mobile fridges that were the men.
 

Therumancer

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Well, the be honest I don't think shoehorning diversity into games is either a good thing or welcome. If someone happens to want to make a game with a non-white, non-male protagonist, more power to them, but it's getting ridiculous when you see about people complaining about white men in games. It's even sillier when someone goes so far as to talk about becoming "obsolete" when really it's only a fairly small group of people that think there is an issue here, especially seeing as there have been both female and non-white (especially Asian) playable leads in games. It's a minority representation to be sure it is there and comes along on it's own once in a while.

I'd like to also point out that Ubisoft is more or less correct in their comments, albeit they suffer from being fairly brief in their defense. For a game like they are doing they would not just need to hire a female voice actor, but also hire all the other voice actors to re-record dialogue changing gender identifiers, and at this level of cinematography perhaps the whole tone of scenes based on how existing characters would likely react to a woman. It should also be noted that there is a HUGE difference between simply having a model, and having a playable model that meshes with all of the events and needed actions within a game. A few apparent inches in character height for example can be a big deal, especially when it comes to running, jumping, etc... especially with carefully placed scene objects. Games that give people a lot of latitude in their models usually also tend to be fairly limited in what you can do with them. The old MMO question of "will our characters be able to sit in chairs" largely comes from this because having a lot of very different models that can all sit in the same basic chair and have it look fairly normal can be a huge deal. Some might also remember going back to "The Old Republic Online" that they had a lot of issues with their models, some of which persist to this day, for example during E-3 some might remember it being pointed out that the female models (the example used was a female bounty hunter if I remember) were having a lot of trouble meshing with the vehicles correctly. This problem was finished by release, but also caused other issues like the much-maligned clipping issues with capes and such as that apparently came about due to changes they needed to make in order to get the female characters to be able to ride properly. Of course had they done the female models first, they probably would have had the same basic problems with the males. Given the way Ubisoft tries to sell these games as seamless and "flowing" it makes a degree of sense that in order to pull that off they are only going to use one basic model for the player.

The counter examples mentioned here like say "Mass Effect" suffer because your not dealing with a world that wasn't really all that interactive when you get down to it, you didn't see Commander Shepard doing Parkour and free running around the Citadel while you controlled him. Indeed when you found something to do you generally "activated" it and a set of animations/scene played which is much easier to do than what they are going for with Assassin's Creed.

When it comes to dialogue and having everything recorded for male and female characters, understand that this is an incredible feat, and kind of Bioware's "thing", and has helped make them stand out. It's not something one should be taking as an assumed feature of any and all games. As one of the exposes on "The Old Republic Online" alleged Bioware's sound/voice design was incredible, but it was pretty much all they were doing, apparently they needed to bring in a bunch of people from Mythic to help actually build/finish the game, and towards the end, as I pointed out above, you even had issues with the basic models.

I mean ideally it would be great for those who like this games if you could say have Assassin's Creed level of character movement and freedom, Bioware's voice/dialogue system, and a virtual ethnic rainbow of gender and ethnic combinations to pick from, perhaps through some kind of character generator. It's easy as a gamer to take the best elements of the biggest companies, what made them great, and envision everything combined perfectly together, but
that rarely happens (at least not for a long time). Right now to say have the voice acting/dialogues to the level of say "Mass Effect" or "The Old Republic" with options for both genders, and Ubisoft's heavily animated open-world system, your basically talking about doubling the development price of the games since you need to hire a lot more people.

The thing that most irks me about this though is that Ubisoft already had a female lead in "Assassin's Creed: Liberation" not to mention that it and "Assassin's Creed III" from which it spun off of both had mixed race leads and dealt with retro-social issues (cultural conflicts, etc...). "Assassin's Creed IV" had a whole spin off campaign where you play as a black guy apparently ("Freedom Cry" I believe). The very first Assassin's Creed hero was an Arab. Ubisoft, and this series in particular, has been mixing things up quite a bit. As a result it burns when I see people knocking the latest games (Watch Dogs, upcoming Assassin's Creed...) for having white guys in the lead. If that's what the developers want to do, they should be able to without getting a complete ton of crap thrown at them.

This is the problem with self declared "social justice" crusades and fanatics. Once you give in, or just do something that they want, it becomes an assumption that everything you do will follow suit. It's been declared "great" in the past that the series had "non-traditional" leader at times. But now that they want to do a "normal" one they need to justify themselves and be put under a microscope? It's sort of like what happened when Bioware put same-sex relationships into their games, it rapidly began to be seen as some kind of entitlement, and that Bioware didn't have the right to simply decide they wanted to do something that didn't have homosexuality involved in it.

People won't like what I'm saying here, but I'd imagine one of the big reasons why you see the gaming industry being somewhat resistant to diversity, is because once you do something like this people actually get nastier if you ever want to do something without those elements in them. It winds up limiting your options and becoming a huge headache.

It sounds odd, but honestly the best thing people who are concerned about the "issues" here could have done was simply to say nothing, as opposed to making inquiries, and putting Ubisoft on a defensive to begin with, and as weak as it was, really no answer they could have given would have made people happy. I mean Ubisoft has all of these other games and DLC out there, as much as I dislike them for their business practices (always online, Uplay, DRM), and actually feel kind of dirty sticking up for them. Knocking the hero of "Watch Dogs" and the current Assassin's Creed title is kind of ridiculous. I mean "Assassin's Creed: Liberation" apparently sold fairly well, I'm pretty sure Ubisoft made some press statements saying they were happy with it's sales numbers, so that means a sequel and/or similar projects are probably on the way, there was no reason to be antagonistic for having male, white, characters in their latest games.

If your going to fire the cannon of "social justice" at someone in order to pick a fight, you'd probably do better to go after a company that hasn't had any diversity in it's games. Going after those who have released more diverse games because not EVERY main character is non-white or a woman (or both), or because there isn't a gay relationship for every straight one, or whatever else, is kind of counter-productive and ridiculous. Trying to force yourself more and more onto people who are already on your side more or less doesn't win friends or make people want to work with you.
 

EyeReaper

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You know, there is one game under the ubisoft brand that allows players to play as a whole spectrum of colorful characters of both sexes, and even more importanntly, they're fucking fun as all hell, and near perfection when talking about platforming.

y'know... Rayman.

But hey, maybe you shouldn't judge a company by one game... nah, screw that, Rayman is the only thing they have going for them. Let's just forget about the rest.
 

dystopiaINC

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PirateRose said:
Pfft, if it was really a money issue, having more women voice actors would probably save these companies a ton.

I bet you Jennifer Hale got paid less than Mark Meer for voicing Commander Shepard.
Highly doubtful, Jennifer Hale is a much bigger name than Mark Meer she has worked in films, television, and games and is credited for way more roles than Meer. If anything she probably made more than him. but is he did make more it might have something to do with him doing several other voices. Meer also did Blasto, Vorcha, Praza, and "Additional roles" I can't find any other voices that Hale is credited for.
 

Abnaxis

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uanime5 said:
That assumption is flawed. Just because a 60 year old grandmother likes Skyrim doesn't mean that she's going to like other games. While she'll oppose politicians who claim that Skyrim and other fantasy games causes mass shootings, she's less likely to oppose politicians who claim that more realistic games such as Grand Theft Auto causes mass shootings. Especially if she doesn't like games where you go around shooting people.
An example of this occurred in the real world is when politicians started blaming rock and roll for society's problems. Even though music was very inclusive people who listened to other genres of music didn't think it was ridiculous to blame one form of music for crimes, despite no evidence that this music was a factor in these crimes. Of course once politicians realised that blaming rock and roll didn't work anymore they switched to blaming rap music and this worked because people even people who liked rock and roll were willing to believe that other's people's music could cause crime and social problems. As long as politicians only target one part of a culture and not the entire culture they don't have to worry about the majority of people belonging to this culture opposing them.
That's why I said that unless there's shooters (FPS) that appeal to a huge group of people they're still going to be an easy target for politicians to blame mass shooting on.
Ah, but you see, that's still an improvement! Here's how the political rally would go:
________________________________

Jackass Politician: The video games are ruining our youth and making our schools dangerous. Just look how Johnny McShotterson killed all those schoolchildren. And he played *gasp* Grand Theft Auto! We must do something!

Arrow in the Knee Hexagenarian: Yes! Stop those bad video-games! Skyrim is wholesome, but GTA is the work of Satan!

JP: I will enact legislation! No buying M-rated video games without a photo ID and a psychological profile!

AKH:...wait a minute, Skyrim is an M-rated game. Why would you want to stop me from skipping through fields catching butterflies?

JP: Death to the corruption caused by art I don't understand!

AKH:...okay, how about we not do that? GTA is terrible, but I like Skyrim...
_________________________________

See, we've seen this before in rap and rock and roll, but have you ever noticed that nobody ever got far trying to legally ban either one? There's a reason for that, and it most certainly isn't because they value the First Amendment. It's because there's no good way to cut out the "bad" stuff without hurting something you actually care about. Everybody has a vested interest in protecting their own music, and while they will work to undermine others they don't agree with they have to be careful not to burn themselves in the process.

Except that isn't the status quo as it stands right now. At this time, video games are seen as children's computer toys, or mildly entertaining distractions that only minors and overgrown man-children take seriously. They are completely ignorant of what games are, and they have no problem stepping all over people they don't understand, because that's just how people are.

Believing that more diversity will make gaming more inclusive is naive. If gaming isn't seen as welcoming because people can't find games that they'll have fun playing then having a more diverse cast of characters on games people don't want to play won't help. For example if a woman wants a puzzle game that's easy to play with short levels she's not going to want a complex triple A game that requires the player to constantly dodge and shoot enemies, manage upgrades with large numbers of stats, and has very few save points. Allowing her to play as a female character won't make this game any more appealing because the she's doesn't enjoy this type of game. By contrast if you gave her something like Candy Crush, which is the sort of game she enjoys, they she'd be happy to play it even if none of the character are female.

Also assuming that more diversity in triple A games is somehow better than more diversity in other games is a flawed way to look at this whole issue. Just because triple A games cost the more money to make than another game doesn't mean that the cheaper game won't be just as much fun or just as influential.
I'm not saying diverse protagonists will make everything better, and we'll all be singing Kumbaya while death-matching in TF2 if only we get more chicks on the front cover. I'm saying that it will be some improvement over the current situation, not that it is the end-all be-all solution.

If I understand your argument correctly, you're making the assumption that the only primary thing that will sell a game is its mechanics, and that (somehow) the mechanics can only appeal to a certain demographic. There are a couple problems with that reasoning. First, just because it's a shooter doesn't mean only men can like it. Yes, right now the market consists primarily of males, but there's no way to know whether that's because only males like shooters, or if it's because shooters are only made to appeal to males. There might be thousands of females that would truly enjoy playing shooters, but when they walk into Gamestop all they see are All-American, straight white men scowling at them from the shelves so they roll their eyes and walk on.

Second, and I alluded to this above, marketing matters more than the actual quality of the game underneath the box. It sucks, and I know it will rub any number of people the wrong way, but that's just how it is. There's a reason why Planescape: Torment sold abysmally despite being one of the most critically acclaimed RPGs, and there's a reason why Firefly only got one season on the air--it's because, in both cases, the people responsible for marketing their product knew nothing about the product or the audience for their product, and as a result nobody bought it. One of the most frustrating things about marketing is that it's expensive, you never know if it actually helps, but the graveyard of forgotten art is filled with good concepts that didn't make it because marketing fucked up.

That's why diverse protagonists matter--they are the first thing anyone sees when they pick up a game box. And that's why AAA matters, because they are the publishers with the presence to put that marketing material in television and on store shelves, where outsiders can see them and maybe buy them and not be outsiders anymore. Don't get me wrong, indy games do matter in their own way, but the only people who know anything about indy games are already devoted gamers (other than Minecraft and mobile games, if you want to count those). The AAA industry is the gaming institution with the most contact with people who are non-gamers or disillusioned gamers, and thus they're our best place to go if the end-goal is to expand the overall user base.
 

Waddles

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I think you have reached the point where you just hate everything. Who cares who the protagonist is? What colour or gender they are? I'm far more interested about whether a game is fun or not.
 

Abnaxis

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BitingGaming said:
I missed this post at first, so apologies for this as I'd like to give this post a full reply but I'd be repeating myself.
I've covered all of this in my reply to CloudAtlas, and I'd like to emphasize specifically that as I'm British I have exactly the same problem with not being represented as any other minority demographic within gaming.
To also emphasize, this is a zero-sum game if it actually matters, so an attempt to cater to a non-majority group will alienate the majority demographic, so this really is a lose-lose in terms of trying to browbeat devs into changing the games, the arguments simply do not hold water.
So you're telling me, in all your time gaming, you've never rolled your eyes when OMG THE ALIENS ARE ATTACKING NEW YORK, or you're playing the all-American badass that shoots rockets and chews bubble-gum, or even when the international copy of a game takes twice as long to release for almost double the price because the store doesn't bother to convert their prices from USD to GBP?

And even if you have no problem being under-represented as a British person, that's apples and oranges. You made the "slippery slope" argument earlier, but you are once again making the mistake of completely ignoring the wider societal context of where these games are released. Context matters.

This is about entitled crybabies wanting games tailor made for them, this is about lowering barriers to entry for people who feel like gaming isn't for them. You don't feel like you're dsicriminated against by gaming? Great, then you aren't part of the problem that we're trying to solve. Yes, everybody is different, but not all differences carry the same meaning. If you are a dog owner, that really doesn't matter in terms of inclusiveness unless the community starts saying that all dog-owners are posers who only want more Nintendogs. Race, gender, and sexuality are socially constructed differentiators that only matter insofar as gamers, publishers, and outsiders use them to narrow the scope of our community. If they don't create boundaries between gamers and non-gamers, I don't care.

This is not a zero sum game, because lowering a barrier for one group doesn't necessitate raising a barrier for another. We aren't trying to make snowflake games with a targeted audience of one, we're trying to make gaming into a diverse community where everyone can feel comfortable playing. And if the big-budget indusrty, which comprises the most visible and frankly, most powerful (capital I) Institution[/I] of gaming culture is constantly proceeding as if they don't care whether anyone but white males are playing...well, that's a barrier.

That said, I'll paste something I wrote elsewhere:
What you do instead, is buy games with female protagonists every time you see them. Do your part to bump the sales up, and if you are an woman make sure that you are seen to be a normal part of the community.
Eventually (if the demand is actually there) the publishers will notice that games with female protagonists sell just as well as games with males and will desire to tap into that market.
It'll take a while though, but them's the breaks, I'm afraid.

If you wish to see this change then you can only do your part to make it a favourable business decision, at that point you can reasonably demand some changes because there is no argument against it (developer's autonomy notwithstanding).
Until that point you are demanding that the industry risk massive amounts of money (not yours, I might add) with no guarantee of return, purely because of your feelings.
That isn't reasonable, and the people whose livelihoods depend on the games being a success would not like to have their families security based upon your whim.
That doesn't work, because the markets we are talking about have very few players in them, who have all fixated on the same market. Consumer choice doesn't work as a driver for corporate change when there's little choice to be had. If you're interested in more women in gaming, but you have zero satisfactory choices in for playing women in the genre you enjoy playing, you can either support a practice you disagree with or quit. Neither option is going to make any difference in the way publishers behave.

This is why monopolies suck. As the number of producers go down, they face less competition and are less beholden to their customers. Complaining is exactly the right response to this, because otherwise the market will never evolve. Otherwise, publishers will never see any possible return on investment, because they have already rigged the system such that their established way is the only way available.
 

Abnaxis

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BitingGaming said:
The "video games are teh evuls" crowd have been at this for a long, long time. You've advanced no reason why we suddenly need diversity at this moment to stop nasty politicians from banning our games, as they've been singularly unsuccessful in any attempts to do it up until now.
Yes I have. My reason is "the more people sympathize with gaming, the more power we wield compared to people who disagree with us." These people always been around, since video games were invented. They will always be around. We will always be in direct competition with them. We compete with the gun-lobby politicians who see us as an easy scapegoat to slaughter in response to mass shootings. And with the interest groups that brought SOPA and PIPA to the floor. Or the Wal-Marts of the world, private entities that want to advance their own conservative philosophy through censorship. Or any other number of other parties who want to tear down gaming institutions for their own reasons.

Our power as a sub-group is directly proportional to how large and how diverse gaming appeal is. To me, this is self-evident--more gamers = more supporters = more resources to forward our interests--but if you insist on sources I can Google around and find some text so you don't have to buy a book or a journal article to see that this is a fundamental tenet of sociological theory.

As I've said before, either this argument does not hold water because the nature of the protagonist is not a barrier, or it does hold water and cannot be applied because you'd be demanding developers abandon their core demographic and risking huge sums of money because feelings.

I've yet to see anybody address this point.
That doesn't work, because the markets we are talking about have very few players in them, who have all fixated on the same market. Consumer choice doesn't work as a driver for corporate change when there's little choice to be had. If you're interested in more women in gaming, but you have zero satisfactory choices in for playing women in the genre you enjoy playing, you can either support a practice you disagree with or quit. Neither option is going to make any difference in the way publishers behave.

This is why monopolies suck. As the number of producers go down, they face less competition and are less beholden to their customers. Complaining is exactly the right response to this, because otherwise the market will never evolve. Otherwise, publishers will never see any possible return on investment, because they have already rigged the system such that their established way is the only way available.
 

Zeckt

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Why does everybody here have to be so passively aggressive? It's sad that ubisoft made the 4 It deserves criticism that I understand, but it's their game and they will simply release it the way they want it.
 

Abnaxis

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I edited my post, but you probably didn't see it so I edited it back

Once again, either the argument is invalid because race/gender of the protagonist is not a barrier to entry, or it is a barrier and you are demanding that developers make poor financial decisions with sombody else's money because feelings.
Address the point please.
I've yet to see anybody address this point.
Au comntraire, I addressed this point specifically and explicitly before, but I will address it again.

You have to look at context. If I release a game with a woman protagonist, that does not have the same alienating effect for men as the opposite does for women. If a man doesn't like Tomb Raider--or for a more apt example, Final Fantasy X-2--because they don't want to play a girly game, there are countless dozens of other games they can turn to that don't force them to be uncomfortable, yet still scratches the itch they're trying to satisfy. The set of expectations, the set of judgements, the set of norms, and the set of allocated resources are different for men than it is for women, and all of these factors play into how that person perceives the character they are playing. This relativity is why this isn't a zero-sum game, and why putting yet another man will make the women roll their eyes because it matters to them, but men can accept a woman protagonist in Tomb Raider without feeling left out.

Seriously, individual context matters, pretty much more than anything else. Don't ignore it.

So games with female characters do not exist? Pretty sure somebody will be along to give you a list of them shortly.
So your claim of a monopoly is incorrect, and your argument invalid.
I don't know what types of games you enjoy, but I'm willing to be that there are a lot of choices in that genre. Let's hypothetically say you enjoy shooters.

So you sit in front of your gaming hardware of choice, ready to shoot some stuff. Do you want to shoot aliens? Oh boy, choices abound, let's see, how about Half Life, or Metroid, or Halo, or Dead Space. Ooh, you like a good single player experience, where you can watch a tense cinematic story unfold between buzz-sawing xenomorphs. Isaac Clarke is yet another white male badass, but you'll just have to put up with it. That's the accepted default, just get used to it.

Well, maybe not this time. This time, you want to play a sci-fi action story with a woman in the lead. So maybe Metroid instead? Except every game where Samus speaks she's a complete doormat, every game where she doesn't her gender is an Easter egg, and it's less action-y, more exploration-y. So that leaves...Bloodrayne? Vampires and demons kinda hit the sci-fi vibe, I guess. Tomb Raider? Again, action-y but it's more like Indiana Jones than Aliens. Mass Effect, then? The narrative is on par with a "Choose your Adventure" novel with blank-slate characters, but at least you can be a badass sci-fi avatar for yourself.

Yes, there exist games with women protagonists, but the problem--the real problem--is that white, 20-30-something brown haired male is the default, and odds are high that if you want to play a game that's actually enjoyable, you have to compromise to the corporate-mandated stereotypical gamer.

What I'm shooting for, is a market where games featuring developed non-white-male protagonists (i.e. not just re-skinned default white male protagonist) stop being something noteworthy. Right now, it is too plain for anyone to see that big name publishers are only interested in designing their product for one, narrow demographic, and that most certainly does affect how many people participate in the community. If the big name players don't care about you, why should you care about the product they create?