Jimquisition: Dumbing Down for the Filthy Casuals

[Peithelo]

Don't like Easy Mode? Don't play Easy Mode.

Why exactly isn't that obvious?

In many cases it might even be as simple as that, but not in the case of Dark Souls. The reason for this is that the often notoriously referred difficulty of Dark Souls is the defining aspect of the experience and the primary tool that is used to provide the player with a sense of accomplishment and discovery. These are the two stated goals of Dark Souls (Miyazaki says much). This difficulty and the lack of certainty of success creates tension and enhances the sense of achievement that the game is designed to provide. This is the ideological reason.

You also have to understand that the difficulty is not only present in the game mechanics but also in the area design, visual style, and even story presentation. Every aspect of the game, the whole experience from the ground up, is purposefully designed to be challenging to the player in order for it to create a sense of accomplishment. The challenge is also a major part of the content in the game. This idea is ingrained in Dark Souls so deeply that altering it without fundamentally reforming the game would be impossible or at least defeat any or most purpose it was designed to have. This is the practical/functional reason.

One of the greatest things about Dark Souls is, however, that it can still remain incredibly flexible when it comes to how you want to play it. As far as gameplay goes you can make Dark Souls however easy or difficult you could ever want it to be, but even then you will still have to work for the knowledge of how to go about doing just that.

 

[llubtoille]

Easy modes are not the problem. The problem is that games are now designed for inept players, making the experienced players experience of the game extremely easy.

Far Cry 3 was ridiculously easy at Hard, because it was catered towards the casuals.

Pretty much the main concern I'd imagine.
The worry that developers focus so much of their attentions on snaring the (larger) casual market, that they end up ignoring those wanting a more hardcore experience.

Like if WoW dropped rated arenas and heroic raiding to focus on expanding their daily quest selection.

 

[Peithelo]

EDIT. Double post.

 

[Denamic]

I don't want an easy mode in Dark Souls, not because I don't want other people accessing the content, but because I want a hard time accessing the content. I want that frustration of not being able to progress because everything's too powerful for me, because that makes actually succeeding so much more glorious. Makes you feel like a fucking gaming god. Merely having an option to make it easier cheapens the experience, knowing what you just did means shit because you can just breeze through it with a menu option.

If people really don't want a hard and frustrating gaming experience, why not play some game that's not all about the hard and frustrating experience? There's thousands of less challenging games out there, but games like Dark Souls are fucking rare. Just let me have my game and you can play something else.

 

[Jfswift]

Adding an easy mode to Dark Souls DOES harm it, because the high difficulty is the very core of the experience and everything else is complementary, and it DOES harm everyone, because merely having the option of NOT exposing yourself to that grueling challenge destroys the experience utterly and misses the point entirely. After a while of getting your arse kicked you won't be able to "ignore" the easy mode, you'd be a fool otherwise to make it harder for yourself when you don't HAVE to. Except sometimes being FORCED to do certain stuff, or doing it in a particular way, is what makes it so enriching. Sometimes you find yourself enjoying a situation because you were pushed into it, otherwise you'd never willingly get into it. This is how human psychology works.

When it comes to this issue, I find so many people thinking that having an option is ALWAYS a good thing. It is not so. Sometimes it's not a good thing at all. It's a simple reality of game design, why can't you guys get it through your skulls? MovieBob did this shit as well. The fact that even accomplished and allegedly knowledgeable people in the industry think this way is depressing. There is nothing inherently wrong with easy modes and streamlining and making things more accessible and what-have-you, but there are types of games (fighting and strategic games especially) where the challenge and the competitive aspect holds everything together. Please learn to recognize this fact already. These discussions are too often plagued with people who haven't adequately studied challenge and balancing in video games, and how they affect the quality of the product. It's not an easy thing to grasp in the slightest, and I'm sick of you know-it-alls making light of it.

edit: After reading quite a bit on this topic and watching the following videos I've found myself leaning toward the, "keep it the same" camp. The whole point of this game really, as stated by the developers was to use difficulty as a means to an end, in order for the player to experience a sense of accomplishment and satisfaction.

I do feel that it may be possible however to make the game more accessible by offering a more robust manual and perhaps a longer, and maybe optional tutorial section at the beginning, like Demon's Souls had.

Sources:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm-Jjvqu3U4&list=LLZfVa5LeJDCBa62O_HUSTlA (Vihart's video. They Became What They Beheld: Medium, Message, Youtubery)

BilltheEmu who made some good points reposted Vihart's video on youtube (the above link) from Peithelo's post.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.395777-Jimquisition-Dumbing-Down-for-the-Filthy-Casuals?page=25 (reference to BilltheEmu's post on page 25 of this thread)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDI1oHutLe0 (Difficulty in Games... warning long and rambling by EpicNameBro)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b91BWzLigs (Easy Mode, Do Not Want (1 year special) by EpicNameBro)

 

[Sylveria]

the punishing difficulty is part of the game of Dark Souls. now i havn't played it myself, but i did play (and beat) Demon's Souls so i can imagine it's similar at least. if there was an easy mode you could choose from to start with, then it would degrade from some of the experience of playing the game. if you were having problems the you could just flip it on rather than try and find out what you're doing wrong and pay attention to what the enemies do. the difficulty is part of the game.

That's a sign of personal weakness, not a problem of the game. If you wuss out and put it on easy cause you're having trouble, that's you who's failed, not the game for having the option. You can't say "I want a challenge" but then when the challenge gets too challenging, drop it down to easy.

 

[Sylveria]

I don't want an easy mode in Dark Souls, not because I don't want other people accessing the content, but because I want a hard time accessing the content. I want that frustration of not being able to progress because everything's too powerful for me, because that makes actually succeeding so much more glorious. Makes you feel like a fucking gaming god. Merely having an option to make it easier cheapens the experience, knowing what you just did means shit because you can just breeze through it with a menu option.

If people really don't want a hard and frustrating gaming experience, why not play some game that's not all about the hard and frustrating experience? There's thousands of less challenging games out there, but games like Dark Souls are fucking rare. Just let me have my game and you can play something else.

Elitism in the purest form. Additionally, if beating Dark Souls on normal is what gives your life meaning and value and the fact other people beat it on easy somehow de-values the relatively insignificant accomplishment that you've seemingly based your entire self-image on... you have issues.

 

[Denamic]

I don't want an easy mode in Dark Souls, not because I don't want other people accessing the content, but because I want a hard time accessing the content. I want that frustration of not being able to progress because everything's too powerful for me, because that makes actually succeeding so much more glorious. Makes you feel like a fucking gaming god. Merely having an option to make it easier cheapens the experience, knowing what you just did means shit because you can just breeze through it with a menu option.

If people really don't want a hard and frustrating gaming experience, why not play some game that's not all about the hard and frustrating experience? There's thousands of less challenging games out there, but games like Dark Souls are fucking rare. Just let me have my game and you can play something else.

Elitism in the purest form. Additionally, if beating Dark Souls on normal is what gives your life meaning and value and the fact other people beat it on easy somehow de-values the relatively insignificant accomplishment that you've seemingly based your entire self-image on... you have issues.

Did I just not say that I was talking about my own experience? In fact, I said it's not about other people in the very first sentence. What's elitist about defending what I love about a franchise?
And what the fuck? Since when did I base my self-confidence or meaning of my life on a game? That is pretty damn insulting, and I'd like to know what I did to earn this kind of shit from you.

 

[yundex]

I just want to be able to get somewhere in the fucking game I payed good money for.
I currently find it as inaccessable and boring as those old arcade games where you simply encounter more and more difficult foes.
I want to see the landscapes, the aesthetics, the amazing bosses, I could not give a damn about challenge in this type of game, it is not my forte.

In short, shut the fuck up you whining bitches, I own the game, I want to see what it has, and if I can do that with an easy mode, I'll all for it.

Sounds like you need to be a more informed consumer then. If you have specific tastes and interests it would behoove you to learn about whether the product you are looking at appeals to you. It's not other people's fault, it's yours. If you enjoy action movies but buy a ticket to see a romantic comedy do you approach the theater manager afterwards and demand that the movie have more explosions? Since, you know, you spent good money on a ticket. Not everything is designed for everyone. Sorry guy, better luck next time.

I'm only going to quote you because you were the last person to quote me and you all have roughly the same argument.
The reason I bought the game is because I thought it was going to be the kind of challenge I could beat. I was not aware that it was not going to be the kind of challenge that I would see as not worth beating.
For example, I can play an oldschool RPG on "Torment" difficulty and enjoy the challenge, this however I could not.

The problem I am currently encountering is that you bastards feel it nessecary to persudate the creator not to put in a mode that will give me access to what I do enjoy in the game.
To borrow and distort your analogy, I bought the ticket to see the romantic comedy, I didn't particularly like it, so the director offers to release a version with all the explosions my heart could desire, for free. Then, out of nowhere the fans of the romantic comedy backlash, and don't want their movie 'corrupted' by explosions.
They fail to take into account that the original movie still exists. That adding more explosions to another version of the movie would merely allow other people to enjoy it.

Admittedly, I didn't know what I was getting into when I bought the game, but when the developer offers to allow me to enjoy it, and brats like those I see in this thread slap him down, I get pissed off.

So you knew it was supposed to be challenging, yet you said you didn't care about challenge in this type of game? Also, where did a developer "offer to allow you to enjoy it"? I've never paid attention to dark souls but I might buy it now that another sequel has been confirmed.

I don't care about the challenge in this type of game, no, and I knew it was meant to be challenging. I fail to see a contradiction. It's like saying, 'Hey, this game's gameplay is amazing, but I don't care about the gameplay, I'm more interested in the story'.
As for your seecond point: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.387153-Dark-Souls-Director-Considers-an-Easier-Option
Amazing what two seconds with the search bar can do.

Could you try to be less of a condescending douchebag? Especially considering how hard you fail at it. The source you link to is a translation error.

And you knew the game was supposed to be challenging, but you don't like the amount of challenge in a game that's designed to be challenging. Ok, I get it.

 

[yundex]

I don't want an easy mode in Dark Souls, not because I don't want other people accessing the content, but because I want a hard time accessing the content. I want that frustration of not being able to progress because everything's too powerful for me, because that makes actually succeeding so much more glorious. Makes you feel like a fucking gaming god. Merely having an option to make it easier cheapens the experience, knowing what you just did means shit because you can just breeze through it with a menu option.

If people really don't want a hard and frustrating gaming experience, why not play some game that's not all about the hard and frustrating experience? There's thousands of less challenging games out there, but games like Dark Souls are fucking rare. Just let me have my game and you can play something else.

Elitism in the purest form. Additionally, if beating Dark Souls on normal is what gives your life meaning and value and the fact other people beat it on easy somehow de-values the relatively insignificant accomplishment that you've seemingly based your entire self-image on... you have issues.

Did I just not say that I was talking about my own experience? In fact, I said it's not about other people in the very first sentence. What's elitist about defending what I love about a franchise?
And what the fuck? Since when did I base my self-confidence or meaning of my life on a game? That is pretty damn insulting, and I'd like to know what I did to earn this kind of shit from you.

I think there should be an easier difficult in Dark Souls if people bought it with there own money they deserve to have that chance.

I think the next step is explaining how to properly implement an "easy mode" in dark souls. Because from what I understand with this thread, the difficulty isn't just based on numbers which can easily be manipulated.

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

Well, Jim clearly states to not have played Dark Souls.

So, what the jimmenijimming jimjim does he know about it?

'Easy mode' is against the very nature, the main core element, the very experience and ride that is Dark Souls (or Demon's Souls for that matter). So... for once, I am not with Jim and think he's talking out of his ass.

If Dark Souls was a meal, say, some sweet'n'sour chicken dish, and Jim just liked the taste - or, in this case - looks of it and doesn't know Jim about cooking, he just went: "Ooh! It's red! It's got to have blood in it! Chewy bits! Yum! Must be shrooms and tofu! Ooh shiny shiny! Must be shampoo in it! Ooh! Sour! Must have lemons in it! Funny taste of cilantro! What is cilantro? I don't know cilantro! Must be some more liquid soap, then! Hmmmm!"

Dear Jim,
If the festive season allows you some time off from everything, please consider playing Dark Souls.

Thank you.

Cordially yours, yours and everybody else's,

-Head.

 

[mrhateful]

The problem with dumbing down games as I see it is you can't talk to a friend about the experience since he played it on baby mode and you played it on real mode, thus the game the two of you played wasn't the same game.

 

[CoronaryThrombosis]

I generally agree, Jimothy, but Demon Souls is a bad game to use as an example. I thought the message system (especially the warnings) was both innovative and helpful. If Dark Souls has an easy mode, people playing the easier version won't be able to contribute to the game community through warnings and other helpful messages.

I'd much rather see a system of user-provided hints and tips to get other gamers through tough parts of a game instead of an easy mode. I might have more faith in humanity than you, though.

 

[Korten12]

Well, I hope your niche market can afford to keep your doors open - because you sure as hell are no ambassador.

That's not the point. Good for missing the point. Do you even know what Niche means? Because if you seem to have a problem with it, then your missing the point. Again.

I don't think I once mentioned an easy mode... That was you. If they wanted to be honest with their advertisements, they would've said "prepare to die, then grind your way through the same shitty level a dozen times before you get to the incredibly hard boss fight that pops out of nowhere and which we give you literally no time to prepare for."

Seeing an architecturally neat area is fun. Running through the same area hundreds of times, fighting the same enemies in the same places, is not - it makes me want to grab all the corpses and lock them in a cupboard so they don't just stand back up.

Opinion. I think you need to realize that. Your stating your opinion as Fact. This is why people like myself enjoy the game. Hence why it's a niche.

I am fully aware of this, I'd gotten through what I imagine was 1/2 the game before eventually quitting, because yet another boss fight came out of the blue and forced me to run through the same boring ass area to get back to him because I wasn't clairvoyant enough to know that this billowing white cloud was one of the ones that led to a Boss Fight and not one of the pointless ones that just opened a new area.

The game definitely had redeeming qualities, the skill needed to beat random mooks was a welcome change, but its reliance on grinding through the same areas over and over to get to the area you died in (to pad out the runtime) was its doom.

See you seem to attacking the game all on opinion. It's one thing trying to argue about a system, it's another trying to point out that you don't like the game and that it should change. In your first post you mentioned you should see all of the content. But you clearly show why you shouldn't be able to. Because the game isn't made for you. Hence Niche, the hole thing I have been trying to push. Dark Souls is not for everyone and thus if someone like yourself doesn't like it. To bad, it shouldn't change to accomidate those who don't like the style of the game.

Your reasons for not liking it ARE VALID. But in your post you say that you should be able to see all the content, when not playing the game as intended, wishing for it to change so it's not even Dark Souls anymore.

Don't like Easy Mode? Don't play Easy Mode.

Why exactly isn't that obvious?

Regardless of defending a game by claiming it's difficulty mode is the one sole selling point for the entire game, I for one welcome our new Easy mode overlords.

In all honesty I'm not even mad because:
1)It's just a video game and there's no reason to smack other people into oblivion because you feel your game is being tainted

2)If you feel you can't get over and accept the fact some people want to play on Easy then you really need to play other games or maybe just go outside for some fresh air and realise people have different preferences and no matter what excuse you try to pull out to deny them of their preference you won't ever win unless you dictate what you want them to do which then renders individual choices moot and useless.

And as a last heads up if you decide to quote me and try to defeat what I just said then I'll have to tell you now you won't see any change and it will only be a waste of your time in doing so, so please think deeply and realise that nothing will change the outcome of my viewpoint.

I made a whole post back about how level design would be effected by Easy Mode as Dark Souls easy mode couldn't be just changing stats around as it's built into how the game is played and the levels themselves that make it hard. Changing the difficulty would mean redesigning the game. If they made hard mode just have more enemies and higher health for them, it's missing the point as to why the games are difficult.

It's not like most games that can just change the stats, because the levels are designed with just hard difficulty in mind and not easy. Most games that have multiple difficulties are built around so that it has multiple difficulties.

So yes, it would indeed effect the game in a bad way for having to change the game all around. It's not as easy to make difficulties as people seem to think.

 

[Xisin]

Adding an easy mode to Dark Souls DOES harm it, because the high difficulty is the very core of the experience and everything else is complementary, and it DOES harm everyone, because merely having the option of NOT exposing yourself to that grueling challenge destroys the experience utterly and misses the point entirely. After a while of getting your arse kicked you won't be able to "ignore" the easy mode, you'd be a fool otherwise to make it harder for yourself when you don't HAVE to. Except sometimes being FORCED to do certain stuff, or doing it in a particular way, is what makes it so enriching. Sometimes you find yourself enjoying a situation because you were pushed into it, otherwise you'd never willingly get into it. This is how human psychology works.

When it comes to this issue, I find so many people thinking that having an option is ALWAYS a good thing. It is not so. Sometimes it's not a good thing at all. It's a simple reality of game design, why can't you guys get it through your skulls? MovieBob did this shit as well. The fact that even accomplished and allegedly knowledgeable people in the industry think this way is depressing. There is nothing inherently wrong with easy modes and streamlining and making things more accessible and what-have-you, but there are types of games (fighting and strategic games especially) where the challenge and the competitive aspect holds everything together. Please learn to recognize this fact already. These discussions are too often plagued with people who haven't adequately studied challenge and balancing in video games, and how they affect the quality of the product. It's not an easy thing to grasp in the slightest, and I'm sick of you know-it-alls making light of it.

I disagree with you here. I'm terrible at FPSs, so my husband put Dues Ex: Human Revolution on the hardest difficulty. You can change the difficulty mode at any point in time in that game, yet I played it all the way through on the hardest setting. I died 3 times right after he asks if you want to go lethal or non-lethal... If you feel the need to go down a setting perhaps you are not having as good a time as you thought you were? Having the option doesn't force you to take it. Just because human's like to take the easiest path, doesn't mean you have to.

Besides challenge is relative. What is hard for me, is different than what is hard for you. So why not have options to challenge us both?

 

[Tanakh]

I think the next step is explaining how to properly implement an "easy mode" in dark souls. Because from what I understand with this thread, the difficulty isn't just based on numbers which can easily be manipulated.

It is. Make all enemies hit for 1/3 of the damage they usually do and half as often. There you are, a perfectly functional easy mode that takes a couple of hours to implement.

If anything what bothers me is how people here talk like Dark Souls was OMG impressively hard when in the big scheme of games:

Spoiler

Quite sure it will be at connect four level in game AI at best.

 

[Korten12]

I disagree with you here. I'm terrible at FPSs, so my husband put Dues Ex: Human Revolution on the hardest difficulty. You can change the difficulty mode at any point in time in that game, yet I played it all the way through on the hardest setting. I died 3 times right after he asks if you want to go lethal or non-lethal... If you feel the need to go down a setting perhaps you are not having as good a time as you thought you were? Having the option doesn't force you to take it. Just because human's like to take the easiest path, doesn't mean you have to.

Besides challenge is relative. What is hard for me, is different than what is hard for you. So why not have options to challenge us both?

Let me explain this... Again... A game like Dues Ex is built with multiple difficulties in mind. How it's created allows for the developers to add more enemies, do higher damage, and such. Dark Souls is not. The level design, how each level is played is centered around being hard. Just adding more enemies and increasing health and damage for a hard mode, or lessening them is missing the point as to why Dark Souls is hard.

It's hard because the levels are made to be. In most games like I mentioned (with Dues Ex) are built with multiple difficulties, where as Dark Souls isn't. Hence if they wanted to add Easy mode, they would have to change the whole way difficulties work because at the current moment it wouldn't work just changing the stats on enemies.

Thus this is why Easy mode would hamper the game as they would be forced to change how Dark Souls is played unless they want to design the game twice which is just stupid and asking for a lot.

 

[Korten12]

I think the next step is explaining how to properly implement an "easy mode" in dark souls. Because from what I understand with this thread, the difficulty isn't just based on numbers which can easily be manipulated.

It is. Make all enemies hit for 1/3 of the damage they usually do and half as often. There you are, a perfectly functional easy mode that takes a couple of hours to implement.

If anything what bothers me is how people here talk like Dark Souls was OMG impressively hard when in the big scheme of games:

Spoiler

Quite sure it will be at connect four level in game AI at best.

Wrong let... Me... explain... fucking again... I swear people don't read the important posts and just continue to think difficulties in games are just all numbers it's not...

"Let me explain this... Again... A game like Dues Ex is built with multiple difficulties in mind. How it's created allows for the developers to add more enemies, do higher damage, and such. Dark Souls is not. The level design, how each level is played is centered around being hard. Just adding more enemies and increasing health and damage for a hard mode, or lessening them is missing the point as to why Dark Souls is hard.

It's hard because the levels are made to be. In most games like I mentioned (with Dues Ex) are built with multiple difficulties, where as Dark Souls isn't. Hence if they wanted to add Easy mode, they would have to change the whole way difficulties work because at the current moment it wouldn't work just changing the stats on enemies.

Thus this is why Easy mode would hamper the game as they would be forced to change how Dark Souls is played unless they want to design the game twice which is just stupid and asking for a lot."

(Repost of what I said to Xisin.)