Jimquisition: Dumbing Down for the Filthy Casuals

[YCRanger]

I just want to be able to get somewhere in the fucking game I payed good money for.
I currently find it as inaccessable and boring as those old arcade games where you simply encounter more and more difficult foes.
I want to see the landscapes, the aesthetics, the amazing bosses, I could not give a damn about challenge in this type of game, it is not my forte.

In short, shut the fuck up you whining bitches, I own the game, I want to see what it has, and if I can do that with an easy mode, I'll all for it.

Sounds like you need to be a more informed consumer then. If you have specific tastes and interests it would behoove you to learn about whether the product you are looking at appeals to you. It's not other people's fault, it's yours. If you enjoy action movies but buy a ticket to see a romantic comedy do you approach the theater manager afterwards and demand that the movie have more explosions? Since, you know, you spent good money on a ticket. Not everything is designed for everyone. Sorry guy, better luck next time.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

The trouble is the default game is gutted,raped and then poorly sewn back together for the filthily casuals.

If it was not and instead you could select easier modes there would not be a problem. Sadly they make the game for the morons and expect no one to notice the crap they are pulling.

 

[VyceVictus]

I don't think I once mentioned an easy mode... That was you. If they wanted to be honest with their advertisements, they would've said "prepare to die, then grind your way through the same shitty level a dozen times before you get to the incredibly hard boss fight that pops out of nowhere and which we give you literally no time to prepare for."

Seeing an architecturally neat area is fun. Running through the same area hundreds of times, fighting the same enemies in the same places, is not - it makes me want to grab all the corpses and lock them in a cupboard so they don't just stand back up.

Also, the white fog doors only exist the first time you pass by them if they aren't there for a boss fight.

I am fully aware of this, I'd gotten through what I imagine was 1/2 the game before eventually quitting, because yet another boss fight came out of the blue and forced me to run through the same boring ass area to get back to him because I wasn't clairvoyant enough to know that this billowing white cloud was one of the ones that led to a Boss Fight and not one of the pointless ones that just opened a new area.

The game definitely had redeeming qualities, the skill needed to beat random mooks was a welcome change, but its reliance on grinding through the same areas over and over to get to the area you died in (to pad out the runtime) was its doom.

I feel like that is a more than legitimate complaint, you should have started with that. That is one of the most valid reasons for not liking the game I have ever seen.

I think we assumed you wanted an easy mode added because that is what the topic is about and you posted about wanting your monies worth out of something you bought and we connected the 2 dots. So sorry for snarking at you over a miss-communication. I see worse but similar gripes all the time and sometimes just knee-jerk one of the many responses I've had to use.

Having to walk all the way back to the boss can be annoying and disheartening at times in several areas. Blighttown comes to mind, so does the catacombs and the tomb of giants..

After reading this (and someone may have mentioned this before), Dark Souls probably isnt a good example for or against "Easy Mode". In the same way that the level design was meant to be challenging, there are just as many other aspects of the game design and mechanics that one could argue are legitimately flawed. I suppose lumping all those aspects into a game being "difficult" kinda masks the real nuts and bolts issues. If perhaps the balance between these aspects was different, more people could get in to the game while it still maintaining it's challenge. "Tweaking balance" is not necessarily the same as "dumbing it down".

 

[godofslack]

Well the argument your friend levelled is a red herring, it's not about a game suddenly catching fire if you lose, it's about the game not bring itself down to your level. Novice difficulty is to Skyrim as No Fear Shakespeare is to Hamlet; it actively weakens the work so that you may can experience it. Dark Souls is even worse than the example given, making it easier goes against the purpose of the game, it'd be like making Hamlet into a G rated TV movie.

 

[VyceVictus]

Well the argument your friend levelled is a red herring, it's not about a game suddenly catching fire if you lose, it's about the game not bring itself down to your level. Novice difficulty is to Skyrim as No Fear Shakespeare is to Hamlet; it actively weakens the work so that you may can experience it. Dark Souls is even worse than the example given, making it easier goes against the purpose of the game, it'd be like making Hamlet into a G rated TV movie.

They did that, it was called The Lion King. It still is a quality work in its own right, even for a kids flick. Besides, they teach you how to read shakespeare in school because the works are still resonant today; No body talks like that anymore, so would you really expect to understand it fresh from a book never seeing it prior. Moreover, Shakespeare in his time was very much the blockbuster Michael Bay director of his day. Although the language needs parsing through today, it was very much meant to play to the cheap seats when performed.

But as I just commented a moment go, I'm beginning to think Dark Souls is a more an acute issue of balance and mechanics as opposed to casual vs. hardcore fans.

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

An easy mode for dark souls is a horrendously bad idea, and you shouldn't comment on what you haven't played Jim.

If you haven't pushed through and become skilled at the game, you just won't get it.

 

[TAdamson]

Kinda of like what they did with the new XCOM game. The original was DEVILISHLY DIFFICULT and just plain unfair at times...where as the new one, I see it as more ACCESSABLE than DUMBED DOWN. I played it in comparison to the old one and found it to be more fun to play...

To be fair it was more obtuse than difficult. Once you learnt the best and somewhat unintuitive mechanics and exploited the fact that you could have massive ranks of rookies to screen and provide recon then it was quite beatable.

That said I'm glad they got rid of action points that you had to count for movement and shooting.

Terror from the Deep was murderous however. I have no idea how to beat that game even on easy mode. The Crabmen or whatever just won't go down to laser fire and they appear very early in the game.

 

[sonofliber]

people who say the ONLY feature of dark souls is the difficulty (really? did you guys read the weapons description talk to nps, and watch the scenery? because there is a fucking ton of lore or there or hear the sound track?, it shows they didnt wanna only make a game that is difficult) but anyway on point: play megaman 1-5 or ninja gaiden 1-3, achive boner and never touch DS again

 

[godofslack]

Well the argument your friend levelled is a red herring, it's not about a game suddenly catching fire if you lose, it's about the game not bring itself down to your level. Novice difficulty is to Skyrim as No Fear Shakespeare is to Hamlet; it actively weakens the work so that you may can experience it. Dark Souls is even worse than the example given, making it easier goes against the purpose of the game, it'd be like making Hamlet into a G rated TV movie.

They did that, it was called The Lion King. It still is a quality work in its own right, even for a kids flick. Besides, they teach you how to read shakespeare in school because the works are still resonant today; No body talks like that anymore, so would you really expect to understand it fresh from a book never seeing it prior. Moreover, Shakespeare in his time was very much the blockbuster Michael Bay director of his day. Although the language needs parsing through today, it was very much meant to play to the cheap seats when performed.

But as I just commented a moment go, I'm beginning to think Dark Souls is a more an acute issue of balance and mechanics as opposed to casual vs. hardcore fans.

The Lion King isn't really the G rated version of Hamlet, it doesn't try to follow even a similar plot or any themes. But that's the point, students learn to read Shakespearean english so as to not destroy the work, and that's the same as learning how to watch for animations to dodge the boss' attacks. If you could beat Dark Souls without learning the enemies' techniques it would be terrible just as Shakespeare translations are.

 

[Arakasi]

I just want to be able to get somewhere in the fucking game I payed good money for.
I currently find it as inaccessable and boring as those old arcade games where you simply encounter more and more difficult foes.
I want to see the landscapes, the aesthetics, the amazing bosses, I could not give a damn about challenge in this type of game, it is not my forte.

In short, shut the fuck up you whining bitches, I own the game, I want to see what it has, and if I can do that with an easy mode, I'll all for it.

Sounds like you need to be a more informed consumer then. If you have specific tastes and interests it would behoove you to learn about whether the product you are looking at appeals to you. It's not other people's fault, it's yours. If you enjoy action movies but buy a ticket to see a romantic comedy do you approach the theater manager afterwards and demand that the movie have more explosions? Since, you know, you spent good money on a ticket. Not everything is designed for everyone. Sorry guy, better luck next time.

I'm only going to quote you because you were the last person to quote me and you all have roughly the same argument.
The reason I bought the game is because I thought it was going to be the kind of challenge I could beat. I was not aware that it was not going to be the kind of challenge that I would see as not worth beating.
For example, I can play an oldschool RPG on "Torment" difficulty and enjoy the challenge, this however I could not.

The problem I am currently encountering is that you bastards feel it nessecary to persudate the creator not to put in a mode that will give me access to what I do enjoy in the game.
To borrow and distort your analogy, I bought the ticket to see the romantic comedy, I didn't particularly like it, so the director offers to release a version with all the explosions my heart could desire, for free. Then, out of nowhere the fans of the romantic comedy backlash, and don't want their movie 'corrupted' by explosions.
They fail to take into account that the original movie still exists. That adding more explosions to another version of the movie would merely allow other people to enjoy it.

Admittedly, I didn't know what I was getting into when I bought the game, but when the developer offers to allow me to enjoy it, and brats like those I see in this thread slap him down, I get pissed off.

 

[loc978]

Huh. I guess I just don't have the same definition of "dumbing down" as much of the internet. Inclusion of an easy mode isn't dumbing down... simplification of game mechanics is. Fallout 3/New Vegas' version of SPECIAL is a dumbed down version of the original, Dragon Age: Origins used a dumbed-down version of D20 (as did Knights of the Old Republic)... but did that make them easier? Not really, no. It just gave the player fewer options for gameplay. That's dumbed down.

 

[rbstewart7263]

My concern is this jim and perhaps you can allay that concern for me. That development of an easy mode in dark souls would take time and resources out of development of the core experience and thus cheapen the game as a whole. I want everyone to play it but what if that easy mode costs me a level in the game due to development time constraints? what if the balancing of the core game lacks tuning because they are now doing double the work? Neither of us are developers at least as far as I know so perhaps you with your clout could ask From software if this would be troublesome.


If not than have at it. Ill still cringe when some friends of mine immediately jump onto easy mode without even attempting the core difficulty but what can you do.

 

[VyceVictus]

Well the argument your friend levelled is a red herring, it's not about a game suddenly catching fire if you lose, it's about the game not bring itself down to your level. Novice difficulty is to Skyrim as No Fear Shakespeare is to Hamlet; it actively weakens the work so that you may can experience it. Dark Souls is even worse than the example given, making it easier goes against the purpose of the game, it'd be like making Hamlet into a G rated TV movie.

They did that, it was called The Lion King. It still is a quality work in its own right, even for a kids flick. Besides, they teach you how to read shakespeare in school because the works are still resonant today; No body talks like that anymore, so would you really expect to understand it fresh from a book never seeing it prior. Moreover, Shakespeare in his time was very much the blockbuster Michael Bay director of his day. Although the language needs parsing through today, it was very much meant to play to the cheap seats when performed.

But as I just commented a moment go, I'm beginning to think Dark Souls is a more an acute issue of balance and mechanics as opposed to casual vs. hardcore fans.

The Lion King isn't really the G rated version of Hamlet, it doesn't try to follow even a similar plot or any themes. But that's the point, students learn to read Shakespearean english so as to not destroy the work, and that's the same as learning how to watch for animations to dodge the boss' attacks. If you could beat Dark Souls without learning the enemies' techniques it would be terrible just as Shakespeare translations are.

Uncle usurps throne, conflicted prince, quest for revenge...no themes or plot?
And anyway Shakespeare isn't great because he represents the height of technical literature, he's great because he resonates emotions that every person can connect with (lol at "destroying the work", he made that shit for the common man). Just like this game isnt enjoyable just because it's difficult, there's a myriad of different aspects to it.
Accesible isnt the same thing as dumb.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Sorry I couldn't make a short response. I tried.

Chess is a challenging game to master and a lot of fun for the people who want to put in the work. There are clicks and clubs that enjoy being exclusive to the game as well. Checkers is an easier game loosely based on Chess. It's casual form of the game being easier to set up and play, and a winner can be assured pretty quick.

That is kind of how video games can be divided. Dark Souls and Ninja Gaiden is a lot like Chess (in class) and something like The Reckoning or the Assassin's Creed games would be like Checkers to a gamer.

In the case of Dark Souls, it's a one of a kind experience that sets players apart. The game play and the unwrapping of it's story draws a line in the sand for many gamers. It becomes a club of sorts. If anyone can do it, then "no" it's not as special and "yes" it would take away from the superficial spirit of the community. The ego and competitiveness amongst peers is okay and very natural. I do love the fact that I am one of two in my circle of friends that have mastered this game while the others have given up to go play Dishonored.

It does no good for either side of the argument to insult each other. There are Chess games and there are Checker games both are fun but can't mix. If you removed some of the rules from Chess than it may not be enjoyed by the people who play it and the same goes for Checkers in regard to adding rules. You don't want to add a hard mode to games like Assassins Creed even though so many of us complain about it being too easy. I stopped playing the series after I completed the second one... because it was so easy. Dark Souls is a Chess type of game, enjoyed by people like me. So, in that regard that's why other DKS players were so upset about that news.

I too have this sort of pride and im not ashamed too admit it. well said sir. Also I love the jin roh pic. I need to watch that a second time I missed alot of the plot the first go around.

 

[Netrigan]

Easy modes are not the problem. The problem is that games are now designed for inept players, making the experienced players experience of the game extremely easy.

Far Cry 3 was ridiculously easy at Hard, because it was catered towards the casuals.

I'm sorry, give me a moment to recover from my spitting coffee all over my desk.

Ahem.

I played through FarCry 3 on Adventurer. It was *not* easy. The AI is nearly prescient, and the only way to survive is to play a constant game of duck-and-cover. After covering the north islands, LMGs become absolutely necessary as Heavies start to show up. Bringing anything else to a gunfight guarantees your death.

I've been playing games for about 25 years. I don't think I count as a "casual". I'm not particularly skilled, but assuming Hard is catered towards "casuals" is only proving the existence of the problem Sterling mentions in the video.

Yeah, the attitude that Far Cry 3 is super-easy is a bit surprising. I'm playing the game on normal and find it properly challenging.

Killing baddies from stealth is pretty easy, but maintaining stealth isn't. While you have access to tons of healing, dropping into an enemy base without planning is like kicking a hornet's nest and dealing with several heavies, RPG snipers, and fixed guns isn't a walk in the park.

Generally speaking, any given situation is survivable although that's usually by running away, not by standing and fighting.

But I think the reputation for difficulty stems from the first game which wasn't so much difficult as it was plagued by the worst save system ever seen in a first person shooter and enjoyed putting you in situations with minimal cover and waves of reinforcements where a series of small mistakes could easily lead to death and having to start over again from the beginning. It just seemed harder because you couldn't save immediately after a tough fight like you could in Serious Sam or Doom.

 

[omicron1]

5:10, turned off. Personal bigotry does not help resolve the perceived bigotry of others.

But prior to that, I was impressed at the "paid for the content" argument, as it does strike home for me (and, I must assume by the completion rates on various titles, a large number of other people) - most games end with a final boss fight/level that's miles harder than everything that's gone before - just at the point when you want to see the denouement to the story and finish the narrative, not grind through a gameplay section that's doing its best to keep you from seeing that ending. I would give a lot to be able to balance the story appropriately - make the final fight challenging, but also a place to feel powerful, and have the climax be where the most difficult gameplay occurs - IF the player wants. Because there must be, somewhere out there, a gamer or two that enjoy the final boss model. I'm just not them - and I'd love to have been able to finish more game stories instead of putting the things down in frustration five steps from the finish line.

 

[yundex]

I just want to be able to get somewhere in the fucking game I payed good money for.
I currently find it as inaccessable and boring as those old arcade games where you simply encounter more and more difficult foes.
I want to see the landscapes, the aesthetics, the amazing bosses, I could not give a damn about challenge in this type of game, it is not my forte.

In short, shut the fuck up you whining bitches, I own the game, I want to see what it has, and if I can do that with an easy mode, I'll all for it.

Sounds like you need to be a more informed consumer then. If you have specific tastes and interests it would behoove you to learn about whether the product you are looking at appeals to you. It's not other people's fault, it's yours. If you enjoy action movies but buy a ticket to see a romantic comedy do you approach the theater manager afterwards and demand that the movie have more explosions? Since, you know, you spent good money on a ticket. Not everything is designed for everyone. Sorry guy, better luck next time.

I'm only going to quote you because you were the last person to quote me and you all have roughly the same argument.
The reason I bought the game is because I thought it was going to be the kind of challenge I could beat. I was not aware that it was not going to be the kind of challenge that I would see as not worth beating.
For example, I can play an oldschool RPG on "Torment" difficulty and enjoy the challenge, this however I could not.

The problem I am currently encountering is that you bastards feel it nessecary to persudate the creator not to put in a mode that will give me access to what I do enjoy in the game.
To borrow and distort your analogy, I bought the ticket to see the romantic comedy, I didn't particularly like it, so the director offers to release a version with all the explosions my heart could desire, for free. Then, out of nowhere the fans of the romantic comedy backlash, and don't want their movie 'corrupted' by explosions.
They fail to take into account that the original movie still exists. That adding more explosions to another version of the movie would merely allow other people to enjoy it.

Admittedly, I didn't know what I was getting into when I bought the game, but when the developer offers to allow me to enjoy it, and brats like those I see in this thread slap him down, I get pissed off.

So you knew it was supposed to be challenging, yet you said you didn't care about challenge in this type of game? Also, where did a developer "offer to allow you to enjoy it"? I've never paid attention to dark souls but I might buy it now that another sequel has been confirmed.

 

[L4Y Duke]

To be honest, the idea of a Dark Souls Easy Mode wouldn't piss me off even if I did play Dark Souls. I am, however, slightly irked at Devil May Cry 4's tendency to scale down bosses if you die too often against them automatically without telling you it has done so until AFTER you beat the level.

That's annoying.

 

[Arakasi]

I just want to be able to get somewhere in the fucking game I payed good money for.
I currently find it as inaccessable and boring as those old arcade games where you simply encounter more and more difficult foes.
I want to see the landscapes, the aesthetics, the amazing bosses, I could not give a damn about challenge in this type of game, it is not my forte.

In short, shut the fuck up you whining bitches, I own the game, I want to see what it has, and if I can do that with an easy mode, I'll all for it.

Sounds like you need to be a more informed consumer then. If you have specific tastes and interests it would behoove you to learn about whether the product you are looking at appeals to you. It's not other people's fault, it's yours. If you enjoy action movies but buy a ticket to see a romantic comedy do you approach the theater manager afterwards and demand that the movie have more explosions? Since, you know, you spent good money on a ticket. Not everything is designed for everyone. Sorry guy, better luck next time.

I'm only going to quote you because you were the last person to quote me and you all have roughly the same argument.
The reason I bought the game is because I thought it was going to be the kind of challenge I could beat. I was not aware that it was not going to be the kind of challenge that I would see as not worth beating.
For example, I can play an oldschool RPG on "Torment" difficulty and enjoy the challenge, this however I could not.

The problem I am currently encountering is that you bastards feel it nessecary to persudate the creator not to put in a mode that will give me access to what I do enjoy in the game.
To borrow and distort your analogy, I bought the ticket to see the romantic comedy, I didn't particularly like it, so the director offers to release a version with all the explosions my heart could desire, for free. Then, out of nowhere the fans of the romantic comedy backlash, and don't want their movie 'corrupted' by explosions.
They fail to take into account that the original movie still exists. That adding more explosions to another version of the movie would merely allow other people to enjoy it.

Admittedly, I didn't know what I was getting into when I bought the game, but when the developer offers to allow me to enjoy it, and brats like those I see in this thread slap him down, I get pissed off.

So you knew it was supposed to be challenging, yet you said you didn't care about challenge in this type of game? Also, where did a developer "offer to allow you to enjoy it"? I've never paid attention to dark souls but I might buy it now that another sequel has been confirmed.

I don't care about the challenge in this type of game, no, and I knew it was meant to be challenging. I fail to see a contradiction. It's like saying, 'Hey, this game's gameplay is amazing, but I don't care about the gameplay, I'm more interested in the story'.
As for your seecond point: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.387153-Dark-Souls-Director-Considers-an-Easier-Option
Amazing what two seconds with the search bar can do.