Jimquisition: Dumbing Down for the Filthy Casuals

[anthony87]

OPTIONAL

................

Sorry, it's just that so many people seem to be ignore the usage of the word optional that I figured I'd make it big and blue, maybe draw some attention to it.

Yes, you have gained my attention. :]

An option, however optional it may be, by definition gives you an alternative to something and enables you to resort to it if you so desire. This goes against what Dark Souls is trying to achieve. The very notion of an optional option degrades the experienced value of your efforts and in the case of Dark Souls lessens the amount of tension you experience. There is nothing you can do (aside from maybe erasing our memories) to avoid this from happening if the option is consciously known to be there. It's just how the concept of tension and our minds work.

Yeah I get what you mean but wouldn't that be an issue for the individual and not a problem with the game itself? I mean I know for a fact that if Dark Souls had an easier option then I wouldn't touch it because I had far too much fun with Demon's Souls but I'm hardly in a position to speak for everyone.

 

[BioRex]

How do you create a challenge that isn't a challenge? how do you create a feeling of achievement when there is no challenge? how do you create a feeling of dread tension and despair when the player can't die easy?
Why can't you play something else and leave the game i like alone?

Indeed. I mean I love dark souls but I also love Kirby, those two games fill a different area of entertainment. I mean how absurd would it be if I demanded that Kirby have a hard mode? Or that there should be no retries? According to some that is entirely fine, for me to demand developers spend time and money to cater to my personal taste.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

Those aren't answers to my questions. You in fact answered and addressed zero of them. While again spewing more false premises.

You continue to speak like making an easy mode would take away so much resources and so much time that not only will it do damage to dark souls 2, that it will be irreparable damage to the game and it will now be horrible because they took the eternity it would take to make a few tweaks. And you know, if they added in an easy mode, more people might buy the game meaning......OMG........more resources for dark souls 2, to make it better!

They are able to make the game the way it is precisely because they only have the one mode to consider. Go ahead, tell me that adding a fully featured flight sim mode to Halo 5 won't drain resources and distract from the design focus.

And of course its a risk that people might not buy it. Thats called life. And the developers were at least looking at the option so they at least thought in theory it would be worth it.

No they weren't. Stop spreading misinformation.

But before the idea could really even get off the ground, the idea was shot down by the frothing nerd rage of teh hardcorez.

Tell me again how it's us who are the offensive, insulting, elitist douche bags who have to boss everyone around.

And if anything is going to make people not want to buy dark souls, its the dark souls community. I've seen more polite and less egotistical people in a game of league of legends.

I'd bet hard money you were a complete ass to Dark Souls fans and now you're blaming them for not getting off on the wrong foot. It's confirmation bias. You're a dick to us and then you act like we're the ones who are insulting and unreasonable even though it's overwhelmingly the opposite.

Your prejudice against us is blinding you to the realities of the situation.

 

[Elois]

And if anything is going to make people not want to buy dark souls, its the dark souls community. I've seen more polite and less egotistical people in a game of league of legends.

That is provably untrue if you look at this thread. Not once have I seen anyone in the "no easy mode" camp screaming in all caps or insulting anyone, but I can find plenty of it from your side.

Spoiler

>implying that people care that you place that much value you in the game

>implying that some guy on the internet should dictate who values what in the game

>implying that people will give a damn

and i believe i have won

hmm i think you don't understand me
let me Capitalize it for you it

PEOPLE DON'T CARE ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK , IN THIS SITUATION YOUR OPINION IS INSTANTANEOUSLY INVALIDATED, BECAUSE THEY CAN PLAY GAMES HOWEVER THEY WANT TO, EVEN IF IT MAY BE THE WRONG WAY , ITS THEIR RIGHT TO ENJOY IT THAT WAY .

Spoiler

In short, shut the fuck up you whining bitches, I own the game, I want to see what it has, and if I can do that with an easy mode, I'll all for it.

If this is how people are gonna present themselves when asking for our game to be easier, why do we want them in our community?

Dark Souls players have been the most polite, respectful group of players I have ever seen on Xbox live. If there is any hostility coming from us I have to conclude you are just projecting it onto us.

 

[ZtH]

Jim every day next week? Next week just became my favorite week of this month!

 

[BioRex]

don't forget to lobby for all chocolate to taste like vanilla i like vanilla but i don't like chocolate. All you chocolate lovers out there are evil elitist asshats.

I know right? How dare they exclude people that don't have a taste for chocolate, we won't stop till all chocolate tastes like vanilla, and if you disagree you are elitist.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

They are able to make the game the way it is precisely because they only have the one mode to consider. Go ahead, tell me that adding a fully featured flight sim mode to Halo 5 won't drain resources and distract from the design focus.

That's a false equivalency and you know it.

Tweaking a few things here and there in an optional mode that's there to allow people who are not skilled enough to beat Normal to enjoy the game is NOT the same as adding a totally different gameplay time with new models, controls, graphics and engine to a game that's of a different genre.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

OPTIONAL

................

Sorry, it's just that so many people seem to be ignore the usage of the word optional that I figured I'd make it big and blue, maybe draw some attention to it.

Yes, you have gained my attention. :]

An option, however optional it may be, by definition gives you an alternative to something and enables you to resort to it if you so desire. This goes against what Dark Souls is trying to achieve. The very notion of an optional option degrades the experienced value of your efforts and in the case of Dark Souls lessens the amount of tension you experience. There is nothing you can do (aside from maybe erasing our memories) to avoid this from happening if the option is consciously known to be there. It's just how the concept of tension and our minds work.

Yeah I get what you mean but wouldn't that be an issue for the individual and not a problem with the game itself? I mean I know for a fact that if Dark Souls had an easier option then I wouldn't touch it because I had far too much fun with Demon's Souls but I'm hardly in a position to speak for everyone.

You don't understand what he is saying. The very fact that there IS NO OPTION to make Gaping Dragon easier is what makes him so scary. Whether or not I would actually choose it is beside the point. The man running at me with a knife isn't quite as scary when I know I have a concealed fire-arm, even if I ultimately CHOSE to duke it out (which is totally what I would do). Thank you for addressing this argument.

It seems overwhelmingly true that people assume we don't want there to be easy mode to exclude the casuals. That is close-minded because it is preventing them from truly listening when we try to inform them of other possibilities.

 

[girzwald]

So should we make a easier version of chess because I'm really bad at it? Should those those sim games add platforming because I don't find its main mechanic engaging? Should Starcraft auto-create my units since I don't know what I should build when? Should soccer fields be shorter since I can't run worth a damn? Should tetris include markers telling you where to put the blocks because my planning ahead skills suck? Should large novels come with a cliff-notes version because I lack patience? I could do this all day, why is it so absurd that if one wants to take part and enjoy something they learn the basic skills needed to understand that thing? It would be rather rude of me to go to some people playing magic and demand we play by my house rules just because I owned a deck.

I will completely blow your post away with two words.

Why not?

To all of it. If someone wants to play that way and can find others that want to play that way, then they should be able to. And yes, you WOULD be rather rude to go to someone people playing magic and demanded that THEY play YOUR way. Except people who say an easy mode should be available for dark souls aren't saying you should play THEIR way, you are saying they have to play YOUR way.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

They are able to make the game the way it is precisely because they only have the one mode to consider. Go ahead, tell me that adding a fully featured flight sim mode to Halo 5 won't drain resources and distract from the design focus.

That's a false equivalency and you know it.

Tweaking a few things here and there in an optional mode that's there to allow people who are not skilled enough to beat Normal to enjoy the game is NOT the same as adding a totally different gameplay time with new models, controls, graphics and engine to a game that's of a different genre.

You simply don't appreciate the extent to which difficulty drives the mechanics, experience and design focus of Dark Souls. EDIT: I almost said "wait, I should explain why that is. But do I need to, really? We're talking about Dark Souls. Dark Souls.

It is WAY closer to my example then you are making it out to be.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

That was actually done with Devil May Cry 3. Basically our "Normal" difficulty mode was the Japanese "Hard" mode, our "Hard" was their "Dante Must Die" mode etc. The release of Devil May Cry 3: Special Edition fixed all that and even made it so that if you die you had the option of ressurecting and not starting the level over again provided you had the right item.

Surprisingly the world didn't burn with the existence of this easier version of a balls hard game.

There is no more clear way to demonstrate how badly you misunderstand this topic and Dark Souls generally then to point to the fact that you think adding easy mode to Dark Souls is merely adding an "easier version of a balls hard game."

Oh look, more of this "You don't get it/understand" nonsense.....

It has been explained and explained and explained. You don't engage it. The fuck am I supposed to do at that point?

 

[RaikuFA]

I'll answer your question simply. It's taken time away from making Dark Souls II, for a group of people that may not even care enough to buy the game to play said easy mode.

Those aren't answers to my questions. You in fact answered and addressed zero of them. While again spewing more false premises.

You continue to speak like making an easy mode would take away so much resources and so much time that not only will it do damage to dark souls 2, that it will be irreparable damage to the game and it will now be horrible because they took the eternity it would take to make a few tweaks. And you know, if they added in an easy mode, more people might buy the game meaning......OMG........more resources for dark souls 2, to make it better!

And of course its a risk that people might not buy it. Thats called life. And the developers were at least looking at the option so they at least thought in theory it would be worth it. But before the idea could really even get off the ground, the idea was shot down by the frothing nerd rage of teh hardcorez. And if anything is going to make people not want to buy dark souls, its the dark souls community. I've seen more polite and less egotistical people in a game of league of legends.

The Dark Souls community was very helpful to me when I first started and didn't know proper build planning from my elbow. Forums full of helpful people giving me hints, tips, and strategies for making my life in that bleak place better. Even for the people who don't want to take the time to seek out that portion of the community I think that From Software made a brilliant decision to reward players for helping out their fellow player and promoting "Jolly Cooperation". If anything, the Dark Souls community is the only reason I didn't walk away the first time I was frustrated with the game because I felt that it was unfair.

Wait... You asked a question about a game and you weren't flamed for it?

What madness have I stumbled into?

 

[Mortrialus]

That's a false equivalency and you know it.

Tweaking a few things here and there in an optional mode that's there to allow people who are not skilled enough to beat Normal to enjoy the game is NOT the same as adding a totally different gameplay time with new models, controls, graphics and engine to a game that's of a different genre.

The way Dark Souls was designed does not allow for an easy modal difficulty. I described this here, but you must have missed that;

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.395777-Jimquisition-Dumbing-Down-for-the-Filthy-Casuals?page=12#16097670

 

[Prosis]

Dark souls is easy if you LEARN how to play it......

You =/= everyone else.

Whats easy for you =/= easy for everyone else.

So should we make a easier version of chess because I'm really bad at it? Should those those sim games add platforming because I don't find its main mechanic engaging? Should Starcraft auto-create my units since I don't know what I should build when? Should soccer fields be shorter since I can't run worth a damn? Should tetris include markers telling you where to put the blocks because my planning ahead skills suck? Should large novels come with a cliff-notes version because I lack patience? I could do this all day, why is it so absurd that if one wants to take part and enjoy something they learn the basic skills needed to understand that thing? It would be rather rude of me to go to some people playing magic and demand we play by my house rules just because I owned a deck.

You already play a dumber version of chess. Unless you're playing against grandmasters, you're playing an easier version of the game. By your own logic, you have no right to play chess, as your "casual gaming" cheapens and invalidates the true chess played by masters. Logic which is faulty. Someone enjoying an easier version of something does not cheapen your own enjoyment.

Soccer fields are made shorter for children. This does not invalidate professional soccer players. Large novels are made with cliffnotes. People who want the challenge and the full experience read the book instead. And people play Magic with stupid casual house rules. Tournament players could care less though, as those houserules have no effect on them.

Other games do just fine with a difficulty setting, and still maintain the challenge. Look at Mount and Blade. Heck, most people even rate the game to be impossible without turning down the difficulty.

Answer me this. How does another person playing an easier version of a game invalidate your own enjoyment? Do you enjoy the game because its hard, or because you can brag online about how you beat that super-hard game? Personally, I could care less how many difficulty settings a game has. I enjoy Dark Souls at its current difficulty, and I certainly wouldn't choose an easy mode, as I feel that I lose the purpose of the game. But for me, the difficulty is part of the fun. For another person, it may not be. For another person, if they want it easier, I could frankly care less.

 

[BioRex]

So should we make a easier version of chess because I'm really bad at it? Should those those sim games add platforming because I don't find its main mechanic engaging? Should Starcraft auto-create my units since I don't know what I should build when? Should soccer fields be shorter since I can't run worth a damn? Should tetris include markers telling you where to put the blocks because my planning ahead skills suck? Should large novels come with a cliff-notes version because I lack patience? I could do this all day, why is it so absurd that if one wants to take part and enjoy something they learn the basic skills needed to understand that thing? It would be rather rude of me to go to some people playing magic and demand we play by my house rules just because I owned a deck.

I will completely blow your post away with two words.

Why not?

To all of it. If someone wants to play that way and can find others that want to play that way, then they should be able to. And yes, you WOULD be rather rude to go to someone people playing magic and demanded that THEY play YOUR way. Except people who say an easy mode should be available for dark souls aren't saying you should play THEIR way, you are saying they have to play YOUR way.

Ok let me blow away your point with one word.
Why?
I mean really why? Is it wrong that I like to see people better themselves and triumph over something? Is it wrong to have some bars of difficulty that don't simple change to accommodate people? Why should we change to accommodate people? No really why?

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

Except people who say an easy mode should be available for dark souls aren't saying you should play THEIR way, you are saying they have to play YOUR way.

If you want to play Halo, you have to play an FPS. It totally blows my fucking mind how people are twisting and warping something like that into a perceived imposition.

 

[Korten12]

So should we make a easier version of chess because I'm really bad at it? Should those those sim games add platforming because I don't find its main mechanic engaging? Should Starcraft auto-create my units since I don't know what I should build when? Should soccer fields be shorter since I can't run worth a damn? Should tetris include markers telling you where to put the blocks because my planning ahead skills suck? Should large novels come with a cliff-notes version because I lack patience? I could do this all day, why is it so absurd that if one wants to take part and enjoy something they learn the basic skills needed to understand that thing? It would be rather rude of me to go to some people playing magic and demand we play by my house rules just because I owned a deck.

I will completely blow your post away with two words.

Why not?

To all of it. If someone wants to play that way and can find others that want to play that way, then they should be able to. And yes, you WOULD be rather rude to go to someone people playing magic and demanded that THEY play YOUR way. Except people who say an easy mode should be available for dark souls aren't saying you should play THEIR way, you are saying they have to play YOUR way.

Why not leave chess as it is and play something else?

I am starting to think that they feel like they would be left out. That they can't handle having that one game they can't play.

 

[EvilRoy]

It seems overwhelmingly true that people assume we don't want there to be easy mode to exclude the casuals. That is close-minded because it is preventing them from truly listening when we try to inform them of other possibilities.

Once again, as an outsider, what possibilities are these? To me it seems that the standard approach presented by those who don't want an easy mode to exist in general is:

summon something called a 'sunbro' which apparently makes the game a cake walk
read guides online
use forums online
skip large sections of the game

I don't understand why cheating yourself out of gameplay is considered a viable alternative to having an easy mode, and I don't understand why this easy mode couldn't simply involve copious tooltips, hints, more obvious checkpoints/traps/platforming rather than reduced health or damage without damaging your immersion of the game. From what I've read in this thread it seems near-paramount that the player use not only in-game options but out of game options to make the game manageable in terms of difficulty, so why not simply take those out of game options and add them to an easy mode, and make the in game options more obvious?