Jimquisition: Dumbing Down for the Filthy Casuals
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
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But you see you've just displayed exactly what my room mate loves to do to no end in a debate: he loves to neutralise it to a point where nothing is resolved and he gets to carry on being an asshat so while it can go both ways some of us want an easy mode and you can carry on with your hard mode rather than not letting us who want an easy mode a chance at all.BioRex said:
It would take a while to explain it completely, and I don't have time for another rant right now lol. If you want to know more, send me a PM and I'll reply later. But let me tell you a secret that Dark Souls experts are sworn to keep by Hidetaka Miyazaki himself after they speed run New Game +++++:EvilRoy said:
It's not that hard.
Did I just blow your mind? lol. The first time you try each encounter, you say "This is impossible. No one can beat this." But you can. There is a way. It's not that hard at all! There is a trick, and usually it's a combination of things to learn, that will make the encounter easier. And the fun is in going from "This is impossible. No one can beat this" to "I... AM... GOD!!!" The difficulty of Dark Souls is an essential tool. But the main point, and we should always remember it, is to instill a sense of accomplishment. Don't think of the tools available to the community as "cheating yourself". They are features! You see, it's all about LEARNING.
Summoning Sunbros is part of how you make the game easier for yourself. Same with online guides, asking the community, and finding shortcuts. Your level of participation in these things is very much up to you. The idea of Sunbros is to learn by summoning someone to show you how to succeed. But they made the game too easy for me, and I wanted a greater challenge. So I didn't use them much.
The game is designed with the intention that you will use forums and guides based on your preferences. Most players simply need the benefit of the community's experience just to understand the story, unless they put an ass-ton of time in the game. Then they added innovative Coop features, a coop covenant (Sunbros lol), and a message system to provide hints for other players in-game. You can see the ghosts of other players as they die, so you can learn from their failure. Remember, this is a game that most players will spend most of their time in alone- but is obviously intended to be played online! We all have to help each other get through. That's the fun! Be sure to PM me if you ever get the game. You need the community to succeed! And people want to add an easy mode to that? What the actual fuck?
The game is hard. Brutal, even. Unforgiving. But there is a way. And we will find it through Jolly Cooperation. We will not be defeated. Together we are strong!
And yet... so... isolated. And lest ye forget, every rose has it's thorn...
Everyone talking about what they prefer regarding games is being selfish. This includes all the people arguing against an easy mode in Dark Souls including me, and those arguing for one. It's all about what we want. That argument goes both ways.Shadow-Phoenix said:
It's certainly not my intent to give you no chance, however it is a fair point to bring up since so few games of recent years give people challenge like dark souls, hell after a while you want the game to be harder.Shadow-Phoenix said:
Hell I would provide some tips on how to play without taking much away from your experience if asked.
My main point isn't that this game is hard and there is nothing else, many seem to think that is what DK fans mean when we say the difficulty is so important. Its that the difficulty is the glue that binds the aspects of the game together.
Love this, that after so many pages and also a lot of valid facebook comments, there's still someone to throw a whole cargo of strawmen simply because, for ONCE, the casual crowd can't enjoy a game because it doesn't snaps into the lowest common denominator's mindset. Also adding a ton of insults because apparently, that makes it all cool, and then saying to not answer because "it's no use". Yep, a good use of the freedom of opinion and expression: "I'M R-RIGHT AND I-IF YOU ANSWER, WELL YOU'RE JUST S-STUPID"Shadow-Phoenix said:
There's been plenty of valid reasons why an easy mode to Dark Souls would actually be considered a bad thing: from the impact on the actual community and the perception of fromsoft, success of the game, the actual enjoyability of the game if it was in easy mode and the nightmare it would make for pvp and balancing between modes.
I won't go back in details since you've already set your brain on "cruising through the desert of no tolrence" mode, i'll just link the video of epicnamebro who makes a calm exposition of why a MAJORITY of dark souls players think it would be a bad idea. The fact that a majority of people who don't play dark souls, and are just barely interested by it but just want an easy mode because they want the game to accord to whatever shoddy mass principle they have, including Jim who apparently hasn't touched the game but expresses an opinion on it anyway...well, why should we give a damn about you people anyway, in that case.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b91BWzLigs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upH5UfKbi0c
Actually that's the problem: nothing is stopping anyone from playing the game. I mean, do the people wantig easy mode have some cripling infirmity preventing them from doing better, or is it that they've come to expect easy victory from other games that have minimized or elimiated the cost of losing? Lose in Bioshock, no problem, the boss' health wont even regenerate. Lose in borderlands, no sweat, just a cash donation you can probably afford. Keep losing and we'll drop the difficulty or toss you the "easy win" item. Heck, we'll make whole Lego games where you'll never die.VyceVictus said:
No one is stopping anyone from playing, but some of us don't think we should be garunteed a win if we play, and if someone can't play if they aren't always winning they have issues to deal with. The way I see it, if a blind man can beat Occarina of Time, then no one not missing an arm has the right to compalin about a game's difficulty curve.
I don't think that analogy holds up. The game, soccer, is relatively the same whether its on the free field or the professional field. The difficulty, competitiveness, and strategy increases dramatically on the pro field, but they're both playing soccer, defined by the same rules.BioRex said:
A separate video game is a different game entirely. It would be like having the options of playing pro soccer, and if you couldn't do that, you have to play basketball. In particular, Darksiders is not really a "dark" game. It's artstyle is cartoony, and gameplay focuses on puzzles and platforming rather than on RPG mechanics.
I think an easy mode would be like the free field, and the normal mode would be like professional field. The pros who want the challenge can play normal mode, and the casuals can play the easy mode.
Now, I don't think the developers absolutely "have to" cater to casual players. There's nothing wrong with a game lacking an easier mode. And if they aren't up to the challenge, they can play something else. But when the developers have expressed an interest in creating an easy mode, I don't think there's a downside to adding one. That is, players are not entitled to an easy mode, but I don't think there's anything wrong with one being available.
With years of work and help from friends. Lots of people aint got that kind of time, even with both hands. So should no game be criticized for being unbalanced or pointing out its flaws? Thats what this site is all about.Redd the Sock said:
Except then its not dark souls. Its darksiders.BioRex said:
And your analogy still doesn't work because. Why does it matter how someone else plays on the field if it doesn't affect THEIR game. Like if the pros only played on the weekends and other non pros wanted to use it on the weekdays.... your argument is akin to....
The pros : You're ruining our game!
Others : How? You aren't even playing.
The pros : You aren't playing the way we play, you're ruining our game!
Others : You guys only play on the weekends, we play by more lax rules because we aren't as good as you. We aren't affecting your game at all.
The pros : By your mere existence and not playing by our rules, you are cheapening and ruining our game!
Have you ever heard of First Order Optimal Strategies? They were actually discussed in the latest episode of Extra Credits.VyceVictus said:
If you provide an easy mode where recklessly rushing and attacking everything is a viable strategy for completing Dark Souls, almost no one is going to notice the amount of depth to the weapons systems, the great variety of weapons all with varied movements, the spells both utility and offensive, all the possible armor options. It's just something that happens in games. If players are giving a single strategy that always works, they don't bother to learn anything else. The depth to the combat system will be lost to them.
If you never have to worry about death and don't have to take your time and move cautiously in a zone most people are going to blaze through every area in the game in about 10-15 minutes. All those lush worlds and mysterious story and atmosphere might as well not even be there.
Actually it turns out that was a translation error, it seems what he meant it that they want more people to play so the game is multi-platform a Pc version is being made from the get go. Also I suppose I could argue the assumption of an "upside" of an easy mode but that is treading old ground. The statement of "if they aren't up to the challenge, they can play something else" is how I think its going to stay.Prosis said:
You do know dark souls is multiplayer right? Thus either the two groups will knock heads with one having an unfair advantage, either from stats or skill. Or that From would have to spend the money to make two servers for the different modes. Its more akin to the non-pros having shoes that make them kick harder run faster or some such madness. The analogy does break down after a while doesn't it? Ok lets go full crazy mode, the non-pros get turned into bears by voodoo magic, bears with JETPACKS!!! OH YEAH!!!!girzwald said:
Man has this got ugly or what? It just seems that the pro-easy mode people just can't understand (or accept) the fact that there are downsides to it. Simple as that. Why aren't the people who are negatively impacted by some consequence(s) of adding an easy mode allowed to be against it?
I'm not saying it's a readially repeatable feat, just that others are too quick to jump on the "it's too hard" bandwagon when they didn't beat the boss after 2 or 3 tries while someone else decided a very legitimate handicap shouldn't stop him. One is very respectable, that in light of, makes the other seem very small, petty and entitled. I mean, if Dark Souls were more story based I could at least sympathize (how many of us never saw the end of NES Ninja Gaiden until youtube), but without some strong narative people are genuinely frustrated to not see, all I get is a sense of anger that winning the game isn't as easy as they'd like it to be, and that a game built around a punishing challenge somehow reminds them how neutered games have become, invalidating the sense of accomplishment they feel when they beat the game with the "help me" item.VyceVictus said:
Because there is no real negative consequence. Its just gamers mad that people will "ruin the integrity" or some contrived bullshit. Im not even for easy mode per se, as I think the issue is a balance design aspect that could be tweaked. An improvement that also promotes accessibility doesn't outright have to alter the core experience in any way. One example brought up about the "sunbros"; just make the "easy" mode closed off to multiplayer and have in game avatar guides. Done. Thats just one of many possible examples. The core game never has to be altered.Sande45 said:
Neat meaningful dialogue. The stat changes seems relatively simple, as you've pointed out. But how will they deal with other game mechanics like curse from seethe the scaleless? If you don't know (can't remember if you have played the game or not, sorry) one of the biggest dangers fighting this boss isn't that he does high damage, it's that he'll build your curse status meter until you are insta-killed by it. Once you've been killed by curse, when you come back your health is reduced by half until you remove the curse. Or the challenge of fighting multiple enemies and being stun locked or knocked of a ledge. I'm sure there are other examples, but wouldn't From Software have to change certain boss and game mechanics as well as change stats for an easier mode? I don't think the stat changing solution is as easy as it originally seems.BiH-Kira said:
I have several reasons I don't want or see the need for an easy mode.
One, easy modes are usually always arbitrary and simply decrease enemy damage output and HP, and maybe increase player damage output. This is really shoddy and horrible game design and FROM really shouldn't step down to that level.
Now, they could put time and effort into an easy mode, that changes enemy AI, placements, weapons, etc. but then they take precious time away from the development of the game itself, and I don't want more cut content areas in the game.
Secondly, easy modes already exist in the game, both for offline and online players. Summon someone, use the drake sword, fucking grind the forest or wyvern bridge for loads o souls. FROM put these areas in place (maybe not the soul grinds though) with the intention of being a crutch for players who are struggling, it's an easy mode right there that people keep fracking ignoring.
Third, it's going to frack up the online. They can only fix it by either dividing the world populations up based on difficulty (horrible idea), or just cut access of for easy mode player. If that was to happen I guarantee so many people would frackng whine.
And having an easy mode in the game goes against the very essence of dark souls itself. The game isn't impossible and if you want an easier game to play, go play something else. FROM should just introduce more crutches that become shitty mid game and harder/easier optional areas.
One, easy modes are usually always arbitrary and simply decrease enemy damage output and HP, and maybe increase player damage output. This is really shoddy and horrible game design and FROM really shouldn't step down to that level.
Now, they could put time and effort into an easy mode, that changes enemy AI, placements, weapons, etc. but then they take precious time away from the development of the game itself, and I don't want more cut content areas in the game.
Secondly, easy modes already exist in the game, both for offline and online players. Summon someone, use the drake sword, fucking grind the forest or wyvern bridge for loads o souls. FROM put these areas in place (maybe not the soul grinds though) with the intention of being a crutch for players who are struggling, it's an easy mode right there that people keep fracking ignoring.
Third, it's going to frack up the online. They can only fix it by either dividing the world populations up based on difficulty (horrible idea), or just cut access of for easy mode player. If that was to happen I guarantee so many people would frackng whine.
And having an easy mode in the game goes against the very essence of dark souls itself. The game isn't impossible and if you want an easier game to play, go play something else. FROM should just introduce more crutches that become shitty mid game and harder/easier optional areas.