Jimquisition: Dumbing Down for the Filthy Casuals

[girzwald]

The hate is on the PRO easy mode side by a landslide. It's not even close.

You are projecting to support your fantasy that the people you're antagonizing are the REAL bad guys. You're prejudiced against us because of our reputation.

Oh, such irony.

You are blowing up simple criticisms as if they were unbearable hateful insults while I'm being called an ass-hat and a douche-bag and a whiny ***** and every bad thing imaginable. And then you're calling my side the hateful insulting ones while we endure all this.

Again. The irony. Going waaaaa waaaaa my side is the good guys and we are all respectful and nice and you're all big ol meanies and you are just biased because I said so. When I can say the exact same things. "Ya, well, I can show you examples of your side being rude" you'll say. Well so can I.

I never once denied that there are rude people on my side but you keep acting like you are all helpless victims that never hurt nobody. News flash, "your side" aint that nice. And if you don't think its true, then whos really the one with the bias.

Oh, and before you say something like "well, you guys were rude first!" again. Freaken grow up.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

The hate is on the PRO easy mode side by a landslide. It's not even close.

You are projecting to support your fantasy that the people you're antagonizing are the REAL bad guys. You're prejudiced against us because of our reputation.

Oh, such irony.

You are blowing up simple criticisms as if they were unbearable hateful insults while I'm being called an ass-hat and a douche-bag and a whiny ***** and every bad thing imaginable. And then you're calling my side the hateful insulting ones while we endure all this.

Again. The irony. Going waaaaa waaaaa my side is the good guys and we are all respectful and nice and you're all big ol meanies and you are just biased because I said so. When I can say the exact same things. "Ya, well, I can show you examples of your side being rude" you'll say. Well so can I.

I never once denied that there are rude people on my side but you keep acting like you are all helpless victims that never hurt nobody. News flash, "your side" aint that nice. And if you don't think its true, then whos really the one with the bias.

Oh, and before you say something like "well, you guys were rude first!" again. Freaken grow up.

Well, you were the one who was so concerned about where the hate was coming from in the first place, even to the point of dismissing our arguments on the basis of our alleged character and telling us the reputation that has befallen our community is well deserved.

If you mean to say "let's just stick to the subject" that's all I ever wanted.

 

[Epona]

I can see both sides and I can't understand people who only see one side.

Once I liked a challenge and pushed myself to beat The Lost Levels, Ghost n Goblins, etc..., it wasn't really worth it in the end. These days I would rather enjoy myself instead of stressing out due to frustration in video games. I can understand those who desire that sense of accomplishment that comes from brutal difficulty too though.

I also feel that people who pay for a game are entitled to see the end of it and I think the Super Guide in some Nintendo games is a perfect solution. I remember being hopelessly stuck on games in the past and I don't remember it fondly.

 

[GrimHeaper]

ZOE 2 is a fairly hard game on normal in the way it challenges you.
Bayonetta even more so. Why can't everyone follow those models for difficulty?

I can see both sides and I can't understand people who only see one side.

Once I liked a challenge and pushed myself to beat The Lost Levels, Ghost n Goblins, etc..., it wasn't really worth it in the end. These days I would rather enjoy myself instead of stressing out due to frustration in video games. I can understand those who desire that sense of accomplishment that comes from brutal difficulty too though.

I also feel that people who pay for a game are entitled to see the end of it and I think the Super Guide in some Nintendo games is a perfect solution. I remember being hopelessly stuck on games in the past and I don't remember it fondly.

Games like those are on the same coin as easy as hell games.
Though I don't think the lost levels even compare to the dickery of ghost n goblins.
It makes you beat it twice, twiceeeeeeee.

 

[VyceVictus]

so every game should be enjoyable to everyone? all music should be to everyones tastes? food? why should every game be enjoyed by everyone? WHY DO YOU WANT SOMETHING YOU DON'T LIKE? Why do you feel insulted when I say I enjoy playing dark souls?

Its not that all music/food/whathaveyou has to be to everyones tatses, but at the same time there could be many aspects you could find enjoyable and one you dont, does that mean you have to stop experienceing it wholesale? Once again it doesnt have to be all or nothing. There is a lot to like about Dark Souls, and a lot not to. The criticism is fair. No one is out to insult you. (well....cant speak for the whole board here)

 

[GrimHeaper]

how do those games even slightly compare to DS???

On their hardest mode they are more brutal than Darksouls.

 

[BioRex]

ZOE 2 is a fairly hard game on normal in the way it challenges you.
Bayonetta even more so. Why can't everyone follow those models for difficulty?

Difference on where the challenge comes from mostly, in those game (both I love) the difficulty is reaction time and such. In dark souls the difficulty is knowledge, once you learn the ins and outs and what the game likes to do its a cakewalk. I got into the game by seeing someone else play it and when I got to the part I saw him play I completed it easily since I already knew what to expect.

 

[Shadow-Phoenix]

I can see both sides and I can't understand people who only see one side.

Once I liked a challenge and pushed myself to beat The Lost Levels, Ghost n Goblins, etc..., it wasn't really worth it in the end. These days I would rather enjoy myself instead of stressing out due to frustration in video games. I can understand those who desire that sense of accomplishment that comes from brutal difficulty too though.

I was like that once myself when I enjoyed challenges but these days I like some challenges but more often enjoy the story,scenery and what else the the game has to offer besides the challenge and if the game were to suddenly ramp the game up into "no chance of winning mode" I immediately feel no sense of joy at all and when finally slaving away towards the end I don't feel that "Sense of accomplishment" that most harp on around here but instead feel "Why the hell did I have to go through all that miserable crap?".

If I want to challenge myself I will but at my own choice when I want to see if I can beat a harder mode but een then in the end I still don't feel all warm and brimming with joy inside because I completed it on the hardest mode possible but I do feel joy and pride in executing a smart move or tactic completely thought up without the game telling me to do it or having fellow gamers telling me how I should do it.

And like you I aim to play games without getting frustrated over them and enjoy the entertainment without having to desire to put myself through stressful challenges.

 

[chadachada123]

There is a massive issue that isn't addressed at all, but is incredibly important, I feel.

If I buy Moby Dick, and can't understand it because I'm a shitty reader or not interested in something like "theming" and "metaphors," I have several options. The option most analogous to an "easy mode" is just reading the Cliff Notes summary of Moby Dick. Sure, it'll explain the metaphors and themes, but it is missing, you know, the READING (Edit: for enjoyment) part. The option most like what Dark Souls has is: Learn to read first, then come back.

In Dark Souls, what actually happens is that you're required to respect the game before it will respect you. You must learn its rules, how to play it the way IT wants. This is, I think, a good thing to have in some amount. At the very least, we are in desperate need of games that teach you as you play.

Even HAVING an Easy Mode option will likely have negative effects. Many reviewers, not understanding that "despair" and "hopelessness" are two of the most important concepts pushed by Dark Souls, will bust through the Easy Mode in no time at all and never actually learn. They will condemn the game for reasons that simply wouldn't exist when playing on its intended difficulty. There SHOULD be a barrier to keep out "casuals" that only want to push a button and see pretty lights, because that's leaving out all the vital parts that makes Dark Souls so thrilling.

Considering that the majority of the satisfaction of Dark Souls is from the journey and the learning, and especially the overcoming, an easy mode just can't work for that sort of game.

Here's another analogy. Imagine, two miles away, there is a crate full of cash. The Dark Souls method: Run, pussy. The alternative method: Well, you can run, or you can take this moped. Your choice.

It's immediately apparent how much more satisfaction you will have when you run the gauntlet over the moped option, but what is less apparent is the fact that even providing an option will make many people forsake satisfaction just to have easy rewards. This ties back in with Moby Dick. If I ever end up reading a novel like that in the future, I will read it in vanilla English, pausing only to look up definitions, the way it was intended to be read. Reading a Cliff Notes version might count as "reading the book" to a teacher, but it isn't nearly as fun and doesn't require any effort.

This is one of the longest posts I've made in some time, and possibly the longest one that isn't a response to someone else, so I apologize if it jumps around or doesn't fully explain certain bits that I may at first think are self-apparent.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

how do those games even slightly compare to DS???

On their hardest mode they are more brutal than Darksouls.

The difficulty in Dark Souls isn't for it's own sake. Dark Souls is a special case where the difficulty present is utilized in a novel and directed way. The people who don't want easy mode in Dark Souls do see why it should be in all the OTHER games. We just think it is OK for there to an exception if that is what the designers' artistic and mechanical design focus calls for.

I mean think about the alternative. You're making strict rules that everyone has to follow and don't allow for even justified exceptions. Does that sound like art?

Dark Souls is a parody of the modern game industry, and how easy and unrewarding it is, in game design form. It's amazing.

 

[Milkman]

I really like the book analogy. Yes, a book doesn't change its vocabulary if you don't understand it. But that's because it can't. Video games can, and that is what makes them so incredible. It can be a wildly different experience for different people. It's part of what makes them go great. Each one is played differently. An easy mode in Dark Souls does not take away from the core experience, should you choose to play it.

 

[girzwald]

Well, you were the one who was so concerned about where the hate was coming from in the first place

No I wasn't "concerned with it in the first place" an off the cuff remark was the entire focus of all your responses to me this entire time?

Sheesh.

 

[Itchi_da_killa]

Nothing much to say here except thank god for someone with some [REDACTED] common sense! If you pay $60+ for a game you SHOULD be able to get your money's worth by being able to complete the game!

Not when a game is advertised as brutally hard, even so far as it's slogan is literally "PREPARE TO DIE."

Then there is NO excuse to go into the game expecting an easy mode. They warned you, and you didn't listen.

Well said, I completely agree with you. On the other hand, hearing about how brutal and beautiful this game was is the very thing that motivated me to buy it. Best purchase I have made in years.

 

[GrimHeaper]

ZOE 2 is a fairly hard game on normal in the way it challenges you.
Bayonetta even more so. Why can't everyone follow those models for difficulty?

Difference on where the challenge comes from mostly, in those game (both I love) the difficulty is reaction time and such. In dark souls the difficulty is knowledge, once you learn the ins and outs and what the game likes to do its a cakewalk. I got into the game by seeing someone else play it and when I got to the part I saw him play I completed it easily since I already knew what to expect.

You need some major dexterity to play ZOE2 in one sitting on normal.
I don't even want to imagine the harder modes. I was actually having trouble with ZOE2 because how little it was different from ZOE1 , but by how much it was different because of it. Having to dash,avoid, and attack constantly more so than 1. I never really used defend unless it forced me though.
Bayonetta forces you against enemies that require something similar to that, but more elegant and not as much because of her time magic. In exchange though you have to attack even more so. The optional angel challenges in the game require to learn the game
For some reason though in it's easiest mode Bayonetta lost most of it's magic(I played that first).
There are games that actually do the same thing when they are to hard.
Some games are more fun easy some are not.
That's the important thing fun, games like bayonetta are more fun when they are harder.
They encourage a learning curve out of the player that isn't often brought out.
I don't have to explain it in full to you though you already get it.

 

[VyceVictus]

There is a massive issue that isn't addressed at all, but is incredibly important, I feel.

If I buy Moby Dick, and can't understand it because I'm a shitty reader or not interested in something like "theming" and "metaphors," I have several options. The option most analogous to an "easy mode" is just reading the Cliff Notes summary of Moby Dick. Sure, it'll explain the metaphors and themes, but it is missing, you know, the READING part. The option most like what Dark Souls has is: Learn to read first, then come back.

In Dark Souls, what actually happens is that you're required to respect the game before it will respect you. You must learn its rules, how to play it the way IT wants. This is, I think, a good thing to have in some amount.

Even HAVING an Easy Mode option will likely have negative effects. Many reviewers, not understanding that "despair" and "hopelessness" are two of the most important concepts pushed by Dark Souls, will bust through the Easy Mode in no time at all and never actually learn. They will condemn the game for reasons that simply wouldn't exist when playing on its intended difficulty. There SHOULD be a barrier to keep out "casuals" that only want to push a button and see pretty lights, because that's leaving out all the vital parts that makes Dark Souls so thrilling.

Considering that the majority of the satisfaction of Dark Souls is from the journey and the learning, and especially the overcoming, an easy mode just can't work for that sort of game.

Here's another analogy. Imagine, two miles away, there is a crate full of cash. The Dark Souls method: Run, pussy. The alternative method: Well, you can run, or you can take this moped. Your choice.

It's immediately apparent how much more satisfaction you will have when you run the gauntlet over the moped option, but what is less apparent is the fact that even providing an option will make many people forsake satisfaction just to have easy rewards. This ties back in with Moby Dick. If I ever end up reading a novel like that in the future, I will read it in vanilla English, pausing only to look up definitions, the way it was intended to be read. Reading a Cliff Notes version might count as "reading the book" to a teacher, but it isn't nearly as fun and doesn't require any effort.

This is one of the longest posts I've made in some time, and possibly the longest one that isn't a response to someone else, so I apologize if it jumps around or doesn't fully explain certain bits that I may at first think are self-apparent.

I think that there can be other ways beyond the proverbial cliff notes. Like how in school, we would read through classic prose and just with the slight aide of the teacher who knew the material professionally we as a class would discuss what it meant. I think there can be any number of additions or mechanic modifications that can still enrich the experience that dont have to be flat out cheats. As with the book analogy,if the game came with its own in code forms of working groups, after school teacher assistance, or thorough dictionary, that wouldnt at all be adverse to the overall challenge of the game. "Help" doesnt automatically have to make the challenge "easy" or "a given".

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

Well, you were the one who was so concerned about where the hate was coming from in the first place

No I wasn't "concerned with it in the first place" an off the cuff remark was the entire focus of all your responses to me this entire time?

Sheesh.

It's in the past.