Jimquisition: Dumbing Down for the Filthy Casuals

[BioRex]

i just wrote a long post and accidentally scrubbed it so now i'm just going to say your comparison sucks.

And I will say that your argument for it being so sucks.
Believe it or not the difficulty in those two games provide atmosphere when it's played in normal mode.

While true the atmosphere is expressed differently, in those games its the speed, the rush, the pulling off cool ass combos. The difficulty works in the way of, move move move, what you doing standing there, you gonna die son!!!

While in DS the atmosphere is a bit slower and almost the opposite, slow, slow, slow, what are doing running into an unknown area, you gonna die son!!!
It's more the planning side of difficulty. Ok I see skeletons, I swear don't you move, I'm mean you don't move. Oh crap it totally moved time to nope out of here.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

This is odd, because:
" You're making strict rules that everyone has to follow and don't allow for even justified exceptions. Does that sound like art?"
This is the very same argument being volleyed at the purists who dont want assists or "easy mode".

Which is infuriating because it is so much the opposite. You keep conflating wanting a certain game to be a certain way with wanting ALL games to be a certain way. You constantly conflate having ONE game that doesn't appeal to you with having NO games that appeal to you to make it look like we are trying to take something from someone. You go back and forth between them confusingly, simply throwing whichever one out there that makes it look like you're being bossed around somehow. If you continue to do it I will assume it is intentional and malicious.

Your stance is that LITERALLY NO GAMES MAY EXIST without an easy mode, no matter how justified. I never said that LITERALLY NO GAMES MAY EXIST without anything. The extent to which you people are twisting this shit around to make it look like the content-starved, ignored, maligned casuals are the victims in this is insane.

Why does this game have to folllow those strict rules on its own?

Because some of us like it that way? Why is my taste for this content not reason enough? Why can't we all just play the games that we enjoy without fucking them up for everybody else?

Is it fair for me to take casuals' games from them or does this street only go one way?

Why does it only have to be interpreted as "only Death and Doom and no fun awaits"? Are the players not free to experience that "oh, there is also grandiose scale and beautiful art design and terrific combat"? was does it JuSt have to be "Hard Death Only No exceptions"?

People like peanuts, we should turn Dark Souls into a peanut.

Like Milkman said, videogames allow for wildly different experiences for different people, why cant thisbe the same. After all, It will still offer the hardcore challenge you desire, why cant it offer more than that as well?

VideogameS PLURAL offer wildly different experiences. That tells us nothing about what one or another video game should or shouldn't offer. Stop going back and forth about whether we are talking about A GAME or GAMING. It is seriously misleading and I'm pretty sure you are doing it on purpose as a rhetorical device.

I don't understand what your motivation is in this. Just play everything else if you won't play Dark Souls as it is. Play every game in the entire world that isn't designed around its difficulty and leave us with the one game that is. How the fuck is that an imposition on you or anyone? This whole debate is so fucked.

 

[girzwald]

If I buy Moby Dick, and can't understand it because I'm a shitty reader or not interested in something like "theming" and "metaphors," I have several options. The option most analogous to an "easy mode" is just reading the Cliff Notes summary of Moby Dick. Sure, it'll explain the metaphors and themes, but it is missing, you know, the READING part. The option most like what Dark Souls has is: Learn to read first, then come back.

How uh, exactly is buying the cliff notes version of moby dick missing the reading part?

I put reading in caps because I didn't really know how else to say it. I did not literally mean "reading." I meant the enjoyment that comes from the reading.

Reading the Cliff Notes version is analogous to pushing a button and seeing "WINNER" appear on the screen, in that the former is skipping the whole "reading the damn book" part, and the latter is skipping the "playing the damn game" part.

Wait, so if any easy mode is put in, it will just flash WINNER on the screen and I wont have to play a game at all? Wow, that kind of game would suck. Its a good thing thats not at all what people are asking for, otherwise wed be in trouble here.

Having an easier mode isn't skipping the game. Look buddy, I can see the points you are trying to make, but your analogies are quite terrible.

 

[chadachada123]

snippy

I think that there can be other ways beyond the proverbial cliff notes. Like how in school, we would read through classic prose and just with the slight aide of the teacher who knew the material professionally we as a class would discuss what it meant. I think there can be any number of additions or mechanic modifications that can still enrich the experience that dont have to be flat out cheats. As with the book analogy,if the game came with its own in code forms of working groups, after school teacher assistance, or thorough dictionary, that wouldnt at all be adverse to the overall challenge of the game. "Help" doesnt automatically have to make the challenge "easy" or "a given".

I would agree, except...that Dark Souls already has help in it, assuming you're playing online. The messages left by other players and the ability to summon others to help are both included right with the game. Outside of the game, the various wikis and forums are filled with all the stats and lore and help you could ever want.

All of the information is there and easy to find if you want an easier time of it.

But you still need to actually play the game. All of the teacher's help in the world won't matter if you still can't navigate a sentence, let alone understand Moby Dick. In the same vein, if you are able to just hack-and-slash your way through the game via an "easy" mode, you are missing what makes it so enjoyable.

I'm not opposed to offering more tools to encourage communication, but I AM opposed to giving people an easy way out when the enjoyment is primarily from NOT having an easy way out.

This goes back to my earlier comment about how although unique, the co-op element was, for me, not a good mechanic implemented. One shouldn't have to be online to access the "in game help" as it were. And whats the point of a wiki to explain a core mechanic of the game (humanity) that should be explained in game. You cant hack and slash your way out of cheap mechanics like invisible ledges or losing your souls and humanity when you die. Again, to me this is more an issue with mechanics and balance than with it being too difficult or easy. If the developers decided to put out optional add ons that effect this, it should not detract from the experience others are having. And beyond that, there's more the game than just being hard.

The multiplayer implementation worked better in Demon's Souls, in my opinion. Dark Souls's server stuff was a bit weird. But yes, I can agree that having what amounts to a true tutorial or something along those lines would be acceptable, or even beneficial.

We (well, FROM) just need(s) to take care to give new players an incentive to learn how to play. Right now, I foresee, because of how the game plays, a standard "easy mode" attracting thousands of players that won't even know that parrying and backstabbing are things, or that using a shield or dodging is extremely useful, even by the time they beat the game. I worry that they won't have truly learned anything during their playtime. Not because of whether or not they'll enjoy the game, but because I'm afraid they'll judge the game based on something it isn't.

 

[jboking]

I'll have to edit the "READING" bit, because people don't seem to understand my meaning there. I am not saying that Cliff Notes literally does not require reading, just that it carried no enjoyment because it's taking out the, for lack of a better phrase, FREAKING READING part. The part where you read the words and enjoy the vocabulary and phrasing of every other sentence, the fun part of reading instead of the text book parts of it.


Sure, you can understand the themes with Cliff Notes, but you won't truly appreciate them unless you've witnessed them as they were intended. I contend that the same lack of appreciation is had with most easy modes of video games.

The graduation argument applies here as well. Tell me, have you ever read a book you couldn't fully understand on your own? Did you get help in figuring parts of it out? If you did, you would know that you still receive a satisfaction and feel the effect of the books narrative, you just needed help. Beyond that, now that you have gotten that help, you won't need that same kind of help in the future because you have learned how to navigate those linguistic problems. This situation has the same graduation effect that an easy mode does.

As far as the final bit, yeah, that is actually the first argument I've seen that holds any weight whatsoever, and something I'll have to think about.

I just worry that the benefit gained from "people beating easy mode first then graduating" will be lost by people going to easy mode first and never graduating, or, alternately, that game developers will continue their trend of making the hardest difficulty STILL too damn easy. Hopefully I'm wrong.

There is still the monetary benefit given by those who don't choose to graduate. Furthermore, those that don't choose to graduate will likely see themselves out of your community, so it shouldn't bother you in the first place.

To be completely honest, I find this entire disdain for an optional easy mode childish. It rings of the same "Boy's Club" mentality that makes the industry so difficult for women to break into. It's archaic and needs to be done away with. No harm will come of greater accessibility and, if it does, you can vote against those companies with your wallets. They will get the point.

 

[GrimHeaper]

i just wrote a long post and accidentally scrubbed it so now i'm just going to say your comparison sucks.

And I will say that your argument for it being so sucks.
Believe it or not the difficulty in those two games provide atmosphere when it's played in normal mode.

While true the atmosphere is expressed differently, in those games its the speed, the rush, the pulling off cool ass combos. The difficulty works in the way of, move move move, what you doing standing there, you gonna die son!!!

While in DS the atmosphere is a bit slower and almost the opposite, slow, slow, slow, what are doing running into an unknown area, you gonna die son!!!
It's more the planning side of difficulty. Ok I see skeletons, I swear don't you move, I'm mean you don't move. Oh crap it totally moved time to nope out of here.

Yea, that is one the aspects of DS it's on the opposite side of the scale yet it's of the same quality of flavor.
Though both of elements of planning games like ZOE2 and Bayonetta require more reactionary needs while having the planning be just as important. While DS While still requiring reactions has more planning because you have less options and are more helpless. Both have that challenge required for a game to reach the optimum enjoyment.
The only difference being that the above mentioned do indeed have difficulty modes.

I wouldn't mind there being more modes in DS2, but I fear that the hardest mode would just end up being well the same as the last game or worse. Which would miss the point of adding one.
DmC does this spectacularly(<missing the point) and I fear that is what would happen if that was done.
The game has to ramp up the difficulty with each installment while easily being accessible to beginners.
If it was done it would have to be like Bayonneta in concept of how difficulty works.

Love noping my way out of certain fights in games simply because how funny it always is.
This is the story our brave fearless hero is carving his way though the forces of... Wait why is he running away?
Or the classic the enemies of darkness are of so little concern that he just walks past them with little thought.

no in those games it's mashy mashy flashy flashy wooo. you get a buzz from seeing the combo count go up nothing those games offers compares at all to DS.

You are thinking of dynasty warriors not games like Bayonetta.

 

[VyceVictus]

This is odd, because:
" You're making strict rules that everyone has to follow and don't allow for even justified exceptions. Does that sound like art?"
This is the very same argument being volleyed at the purists who dont want assists or "easy mode".

Which is infuriating because it is so much the opposite. You keep conflating wanting a certain game to be a certain way with wanting ALL games to be a certain way. You constantly conflate having ONE game that doesn't appeal to you with having NO games that appeal to you to make it look like we are trying to take something from someone. You go back and forth between them confusingly, simply throwing whichever one out there that makes it look like you're being bossed around somehow. If you continue to do it I will assume it is intentional and malicious.

Your stance is that LITERALLY NO GAMES MAY EXIST without an easy mode, no matter how justified. I never said that LITERALLY NO GAMES MAY EXIST without anything. The extent to which you people are twisting this shit around to make it look like the content-starved, ignored, maligned casuals are the victims in this is insane.

Why does this game have to folllow those strict rules on its own?

Because some of us like it that way? Why is my taste for this content not reason enough? Why can't we all just play the games that we enjoy without fucking them up for everybody else?

Is it fair for me to take casuals' games from them or does this street only go one way?

Why does it only have to be interpreted as "only Death and Doom and no fun awaits"? Are the players not free to experience that "oh, there is also grandiose scale and beautiful art design and terrific combat"? was does it JuSt have to be "Hard Death Only No exceptions"?

People like peanuts, we should turn Dark Souls into a peanut.

Like Milkman said, videogames allow for wildly different experiences for different people, why cant thisbe the same. After all, It will still offer the hardcore challenge you desire, why cant it offer more than that as well?

VideogameS PLURAL offer wildly different experiences. That tells us nothing about what one or another video game should or shouldn't offer. Stop going back and forth about whether we are talking about A GAME or GAMING. It is seriously misleading and I'm pretty sure you are doing it on purpose as a rhetorical device.

I don't understand what your motivation is in this. Just play everything else if you won't play Dark Souls as it is. Play every game in the entire world that isn't designed around its difficulty and leave us with the one game that is. How the fuck is that an imposition on you or anyone? This whole debate is so fucked.

Juts to reiterate, my main point is not that every game needs an "easy mode", my main point is that if any game allows for any optional type of add on assistance or help (or even, yes, a stat decreased easy mode), that will in NO WAY affect you being able to enjoy the original challenge as intended. Im not saying DS MUST get an add on patch or anything, but if the sequel does, you have no need to be concerned. Its not gonna "Fuck Your Game Up". You WILL have the original. No one wants to deny anyone that.

As for the "peanuts", heh..well, DS DOES have peanuts in it, amongst other delicious nougat and caramel and chocolate. The difficulty is just one aspect. A main core one, but not the entire package.
That said, in my activity of gaming, I am free to get out of a game whatever I want, anyone is. I liked the combat and setting, art, and atmosphere, but not other things I mentioned, This doesnt mean I have to not play the game just because of those certain detractions. You dont have to want to play DS JUST because it's hard, there's more to it than that. And so, if the developers decided to put something out that addressed those detractions, why not? Especially if its optional. You say leave "us" alone, but Im saying nobody is bothering or imposing you to begin with. I have faith in From software after all these years to believe they wouldnt abandon their hardcore fanbase, but I also know they have just as much talent in making things accessible and fun at the same time challenging (Armored Core, Otogi, hell Metal Wolf Chaos) Nobody is taking anything from you. An addition to the playin field is not going to make you any less of a star player. And in the end, if DS stays the same, great and bad, it would still be worth experiencing (to wit giving From our money). This is not a zero sum game.
Ultimately, everyone should play DS, because it has so many good things beyond just punishing challenge, even if thats solely why you play it.

 

[chadachada123]

If I buy Moby Dick, and can't understand it because I'm a shitty reader or not interested in something like "theming" and "metaphors," I have several options. The option most analogous to an "easy mode" is just reading the Cliff Notes summary of Moby Dick. Sure, it'll explain the metaphors and themes, but it is missing, you know, the READING part. The option most like what Dark Souls has is: Learn to read first, then come back.

How uh, exactly is buying the cliff notes version of moby dick missing the reading part?

I put reading in caps because I didn't really know how else to say it. I did not literally mean "reading." I meant the enjoyment that comes from the reading.

Reading the Cliff Notes version is analogous to pushing a button and seeing "WINNER" appear on the screen, in that the former is skipping the whole "reading the damn book" part, and the latter is skipping the "playing the damn game" part.

Wait, so if any easy mode is put in, it will just flash WINNER on the screen and I wont have to play a game at all? Wow, that kind of game would suck. Its a good thing thats not at all what people are asking for, otherwise wed be in trouble here.

Having an easier mode isn't skipping the game. Look buddy, I can see the points you are trying to make, but your analogies are quite terrible.

Oh for the love o-

You really shouldn't take what someone says at literal face value when they're making comparisons. There is something called "hyperbole," you know.

Having an easy mode in some games IS, in essence, skipping parts of the game.(I very clearly said SOME games, just to preempt people looking to focus on a single word) Maybe you've never played a fighting game, but in single player, it's really boring if the enemy doesn't fight back, or if button mashing can win for you. Well, to gamers that want to actually play a game.

In Dark Souls, a mode any easier than the mode currently offered would be treading a fine line, with one side of the line allowing button mashing to win, and the other still requiring the player to take things slow.

I'm not using a slippery slope here, either. Vanilla Dark Souls can already be played by an experienced player with almost no shielding and with plenty of mashing, because the game honestly isn't that difficult. I worry that, if an easy mode isn't implemented VERY, VERY carefully, it will allow players to beat the game without ever learning how to play it.

Game balance is extremely important in a game, and extremely easy to botch completely.

 

[sonofliber]

there is only one issue of why they dont want an easy mode, they try to hide it behind arguments (like: its not how it should be play, its it only feature(funny some say its hards, while other say is actually easy), it would unbalance online (something easy to fix), it would change the atmosphere (bullcrap, easy=/= one shooting everything it means if you screw up, insted of dying you lose half the health (to give an example)), and other reasons) and that is:

they are scare that if the developers see that casual money, they will change their game futher to bring even more casuals and reduce the difficulty of the game as a whole (you know the thing developers SHOUNDT do)

 

[chadachada123]

snip

The graduation argument applies here as well. Tell me, have you ever read a book you couldn't fully understand on your own? Did you get help in figuring parts of it out? If you did, you would know that you still receive a satisfaction and feel the effect of the books narrative, you just needed help. Beyond that, now that you have gotten that help, you won't need that same kind of help in the future because you have learned how to navigate those linguistic problems. This situation has the same graduation effect that an easy mode does.

snip

There is still the monetary benefit given by those who don't choose to graduate. Furthermore, those that don't choose to graduate will likely see themselves out of your community, so it shouldn't bother you in the first place.

To be completely honest, I find this entire disdain for an optional easy mode childish. It rings of the same "Boy's Club" mentality that makes the industry so difficult for women to break into. It's archaic and needs to be done away with. No harm will come of greater accessibility and, if it does, you can vote against those companies with your wallets. They will get the point.

It really isn't about "no girls allowed" when I gush about how great Demon's/Dark Souls is. I truly want others to enjoy the punishment and the satisfaction like I did, and I also fully recognize that this punishment isn't for everyone. You don't need to be a "hardcore gamer" to enjoy Dark Souls, you just need to be open to learning and experimentation, something that most games DISCOURAGE more than anything, and something that the "casual" gamer dismisses as well.

I worry that if an easy mode is presented, many people won't ever get the same satisfaction I got, because they won't ever be forced to learn, never forced to experiment, never forced to learn the insides and outsides of the game before conquering it. The sole exception, that you've mentioned, is the gamer that would still be struggling in an easy mode, forced on the same path of learning/punishment that I was on except on an "easier" scale.

 

[GrimHeaper]

there is only one issue of why they dont want an easy mode, they try to hide it behind arguments (like: its not how it should be play, its it only feature(funny some say its hards, while other say is actually easy), it would unbalance online (something easy to fix), it would change the atmosphere (bullcrap, easy=/= one shooting everything it means if you screw up, insted of dying you lose half the health (to give an example)), and other reasons) and that is:

they are scare that if the developers see that casual money, they will change their game futher to bring even more casuals and reduce the difficulty of the game as a whole (you know the thing developers SHOUNDT do)

They are doing it as we speak, be more afraid.

no in those games it's mashy mashy flashy flashy wooo. you get a buzz from seeing the combo count go up nothing those games offers compares at all to DS.

Let me put it this way the object in both games is to not get hit or fall off.
In Bayonetta if you want a perfect , you don't use an item,get hit, die, or do shitty button smashing that isn't good enough to get a pure platinum, and kill the enemy as fast as you can.
Same for ZOE2.
Button mashing gets gets you killed in this type of game, the game basically slaps you in the face and tells you.
"Man you really really suck" If you do that.
You have to be even more so precise than in darksouls because the endgoals of the game are different. Yet I can say the games are similar in difficulty on normal.

 

[girzwald]

rooster said it better than i ever could once again.

None of you pro easy have answerd any of my questions. all you say is we wish to exclude you while saying nothing of how to keep the magic of this game with an easy mode. just we have cash i want who sounds like the **** here because to me it's you fucktards who can't handle others enjoying something you can't. Go join the console wars front line infantry would suit you all well

You aren't talking to anybody, you are just talking to yourself. You aren't quoting anything or anyone. Making posts that are responding to something directly are extremely ineffective if you aren't quoting at the very least who, if not WHAT exactly you are talking to in a forum.

 

[Korten12]

lol a platinum what do you do with that chuck it in the pile of worthless content?

Stop, dude just stop. At first you were actually putting some good stuff forward, now your not. Just please, let it go. They won't understand and they refuse to understand. We can't change a mind set in stone. They don't understand that some games are a niche and that quality comes when a game focuses on what it's best at and not trying to open it just to get an easy buck.

They don't understand that not all games are made the same, that some are not for everyone. They believe that the difficulty is something based on numbers, not by story, atmosphere, and such.

They can't see that Dark Souls is like a paper project, the story, atmosphere, game play and such are the paper. The difficulty is the glue that holds the whole project together. You remove the glue and the project falls into a mess. If you try to make it with less glue, then it begins to shake and crumble and after a bit won't be able to hold it's own weight and the connections are broken and once more it falls to a mess.

They don't believe that story and game play can be one, they think the game play can be changed but when it changes it loses that connection is has to the story that puts the game play into context. They screw context and wish for the game as numbers, rather than the experience because without all of the pieces, it's not an experience. It's just another game. It's like removing the story choice from Mass Effect, your taking the essence from out of the game.

They believe that accessibility is worth having if it means losing the story to game play connection. But it makes it a worthless experience, one that isn't worth remembering. You can't appreciate the world when you can't fit in it. When your character becomes a walking tank, he can't understand the world because he defies it's rules and is no longer part of it. They're out of character.

And that is what they want. They want to be out of character, separate from the game's world for the sake of being able to play it and not experience it.