Jimquisition: Dumbing Down for the Filthy Casuals

[GrimHeaper]

how do those games even slightly compare to DS???

On their hardest mode they are more brutal than Darksouls.

The difficulty in Dark Souls isn't for it's own sake. Dark Souls is a special case where the difficulty present is utilized in a novel and directed way. The people who don't want easy mode in Dark Souls do see why it should be in all the OTHER games. We just think it is OK for there to an exception if that is what the designers' artistic and mechanical design focus calls for.

I mean think about the alternative. You're making strict rules that everyone has to follow and don't allow for even justified exceptions. Does that sound like art?

Dark Souls is a parody of the modern game industry, and how easy and unrewarding it is, in game design form. It's amazing.

I think you are talking to yourself he wanted to know how they compared.
I gave the only thing that could be compared.
The 3 games are so different in all the other aspects that I can't do it.

The core of those games is mash the controller. They have nothing in common with Ds at all. I liked DmC 1 The rest in my opinion are boring as hell stuffed to the brim with fluff. I don't lobby for it to go back same as RE i let them go i don't like buy or play them or try to change them so i might like em? Why is it so hard for you to of found a game you don't like to just leave it be?

duh I hit button to attack enemy uhhh
You mash the controller in Bayonetta in normal mode you die.
Mash it in ZOE2, you die.

 

[BioRex]

ZOE 2 is a fairly hard game on normal in the way it challenges you.
Bayonetta even more so. Why can't everyone follow those models for difficulty?

Difference on where the challenge comes from mostly, in those game (both I love) the difficulty is reaction time and such. In dark souls the difficulty is knowledge, once you learn the ins and outs and what the game likes to do its a cakewalk. I got into the game by seeing someone else play it and when I got to the part I saw him play I completed it easily since I already knew what to expect.

You need some major dexterity to play ZOE2 in one sitting on normal.
I don't even want to imagine the harder modes. I was actually having trouble with ZOE2 because how little it was different from ZOE1 , but by how much it was different because of it. Having to dash,avoid, and attack constantly more so than 1. I never really used defend unless it forced me though.
Bayonetta forces you against enemies that require something similar to that, but more elegant and not as much because of her time magic. In exchange though you have to attack even more so. The optional angel challenges in the game require to learn the game
For some reason though in it's easiest mode Bayonetta lost most of it's magic(I played that first).
There are games that actually do the same thing when they are to hard.
Some games are more fun easy some are not.
That's the important thing fun, games like bayonetta are more fun when they are harder.
They encourage a learning curve out of the player that isn't often brought out.
I don't have to explain it in full to you though you already get it.

Indeed, honestly the only easy mode in DS that would work it a smoother intro/tutorial into the game. Also ZOE2 is quite hard, really need to get around to beating it.
Also the ease of bayonetta's lowest form as gained it the name "one hand mode" I don't think I need to explain more. :]

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

I think you are talking to yourself he wanted to know how they compared.
I gave the only thing that could be compared.
The 3 games are so different in all the other aspects that I can't do it.

We will never speak of this again. >.>

This thread has been going so fast I got ahead of myself.

 

[awdrifter]

I don't agree with Jim on this. The whole point of having hard games like Dark Souls is so people who enjoy a challenge can play something that appeals to them. By making Dark Souls with an easy mode, you're taking away the core quality that makes the game unique. What about making a Hitman game for pacifists, you just talk to your assassination targets rather than killing them. That just doesn't work. Some games have a very broad appeal, easy mode in those games isn't a problem. But when the game is about the challenge, making an easy mode isn't a good idea.

 

[chadachada123]

This is a very dissapointing episode... Jim wasted all the episode arguing against a strawman.

The real reason why a huge part of the "Souls community" fears an easy mode is because most of the game mechanics work because of the difficulty. You really need to play the game and analyse it from a development point of view to apreciate the synergy this game has.

Is silly to think that the "Souls community" doesn't want more people to play the game, specially because it was formed from sharing knowledge about the game secrets.

I'm in agreement here. I'd LOVE for more people to have the patience to play Dark Souls and conquer it, and I recommend it constantly to others as a game that requires, well, patience. It breaks you before you can learn to break it, something that is never seen in modern games today.

It's a cool thing, talking to another person that has beaten Dark Souls. There's a feeling of understanding there, an unsaid, "yes, I know your pain. I've been there." Similarly, when speaking with someone that's neck-deep in the game and loving it, it feels as though no one else really understands like that player does.

I think there's some merit to this last idea. Many people scoff at a game that is known for its difficulty, but until you've taken the challenge head-on, you won't know whether or not this game is for you. In games with multiple difficulty settings, however, many will, at the first sign of challenge, default to an earlier setting, damning their experience instead of reaping the reward that hard work brings.

 

[VyceVictus]

how do those games even slightly compare to DS???

On their hardest mode they are more brutal than Darksouls.

The difficulty in Dark Souls isn't for it's own sake. Dark Souls is a special case where the difficulty present is utilized in a novel and directed way. The people who don't want easy mode in Dark Souls do see why it should be in all the OTHER games. We just think it is OK for there to an exception if that is what the designers' artistic and mechanical design focus calls for.

I mean think about the alternative. You're making strict rules that everyone has to follow and don't allow for even justified exceptions. Does that sound like art?

Dark Souls is a parody of the modern game industry, and how easy and unrewarding it is, in game design form. It's amazing.

This is odd, because:
" You're making strict rules that everyone has to follow and don't allow for even justified exceptions. Does that sound like art?"
This is the very same argument being volleyed at the purists who dont want assists or "easy mode". Why does this game have to folllow those strict rules on its own? Why does it only have to be interpreted as "only Death and Doom and no fun awaits"? Are the players not free to experience that "oh, there is also grandiose scale and beautiful art design and terrific combat"? was does it JuSt have to be "Hard Death Only No exceptions"?
Like Milkman said, videogames allow for wildly different experiences for different people, why cant thisbe the same. After all, It will still offer the hardcore challenge you desire, why cant it offer more than that as well?

 

[GrimHeaper]

ZOE 2 is a fairly hard game on normal in the way it challenges you.
Bayonetta even more so. Why can't everyone follow those models for difficulty?

Difference on where the challenge comes from mostly, in those game (both I love) the difficulty is reaction time and such. In dark souls the difficulty is knowledge, once you learn the ins and outs and what the game likes to do its a cakewalk. I got into the game by seeing someone else play it and when I got to the part I saw him play I completed it easily since I already knew what to expect.

You need some major dexterity to play ZOE2 in one sitting on normal.
I don't even want to imagine the harder modes. I was actually having trouble with ZOE2 because how little it was different from ZOE1 , but by how much it was different because of it. Having to dash,avoid, and attack constantly more so than 1. I never really used defend unless it forced me though.
Bayonetta forces you against enemies that require something similar to that, but more elegant and not as much because of her time magic. In exchange though you have to attack even more so. The optional angel challenges in the game require to learn the game
For some reason though in it's easiest mode Bayonetta lost most of it's magic(I played that first).
There are games that actually do the same thing when they are to hard.
Some games are more fun easy some are not.
That's the important thing fun, games like bayonetta are more fun when they are harder.
They encourage a learning curve out of the player that isn't often brought out.
I don't have to explain it in full to you though you already get it.

Indeed, honestly the only easy mode in DS that would work it a smoother intro/tutorial into the game. Also ZOE2 is quite hard, really need to get around to beating it.
Also the ease of bayonetta's lowest form as gained it the name "one hand mode" I don't think I need to explain more. :]

Don't worry at a point you get the hang of it in ZOE2
Once you get past the train and the 3nd viola fight you are good to go.
Though Anubis still will probably kill you a few times just so you can figure him out.

 

[girzwald]

If I buy Moby Dick, and can't understand it because I'm a shitty reader or not interested in something like "theming" and "metaphors," I have several options. The option most analogous to an "easy mode" is just reading the Cliff Notes summary of Moby Dick. Sure, it'll explain the metaphors and themes, but it is missing, you know, the READING part. The option most like what Dark Souls has is: Learn to read first, then come back.

How uh, exactly is buying the cliff notes version of moby dick missing the reading part?

 

[GrimHeaper]

i just wrote a long post and accidentally scrubbed it so now i'm just going to say your comparison sucks.

And I will say that your argument for it being so sucks.
Believe it or not the difficulty in those two games provide atmosphere when it's played in normal mode.

 

[chadachada123]

snippy

I think that there can be other ways beyond the proverbial cliff notes. Like how in school, we would read through classic prose and just with the slight aide of the teacher who knew the material professionally we as a class would discuss what it meant. I think there can be any number of additions or mechanic modifications that can still enrich the experience that dont have to be flat out cheats. As with the book analogy,if the game came with its own in code forms of working groups, after school teacher assistance, or thorough dictionary, that wouldnt at all be adverse to the overall challenge of the game. "Help" doesnt automatically have to make the challenge "easy" or "a given".

I would agree, except...that Dark Souls already has help in it, assuming you're playing online. The messages left by other players and the ability to summon others to help are both included right with the game. Outside of the game, the various wikis and forums are filled with all the stats and lore and help you could ever want.

All of the information is there and easy to find if you want an easier time of it.

But you still need to actually play the game. All of the teacher's help in the world won't matter if you still can't navigate a sentence, let alone understand Moby Dick. In the same vein, if you are able to just hack-and-slash your way through the game via an "easy" mode, you are missing what makes it so enjoyable.

I'm not opposed to offering more tools to encourage communication, but I AM opposed to giving people an easy way out when the enjoyment is primarily from NOT having an easy way out.

 

[jboking]

There is a massive issue that isn't addressed at all, but is incredibly important, I feel.

If I buy Moby Dick, and can't understand it because I'm a shitty reader or not interested in something like "theming" and "metaphors," I have several options. The option most analogous to an "easy mode" is just reading the Cliff Notes summary of Moby Dick. Sure, it'll explain the metaphors and themes, but it is missing, you know, the READING part. The option most like what Dark Souls has is: Learn to read first, then come back.

Are you implying that one does not read cliff notes? Cliff Notes do allow you to understand the theming and metaphors, it is just an easier way of going about it. This doesn't hold much in the argument, it is just poking a hole in your analogy.

In Dark Souls, what actually happens is that you're required to respect the game before it will respect you. You must learn its rules, how to play it the way IT wants. This is, I think, a good thing to have in some amount. At the very least, we are in desperate need of games that teach you as you play.

Even HAVING an Easy Mode option will likely have negative effects. Many reviewers, not understanding that "despair" and "hopelessness" are two of the most important concepts pushed by Dark Souls, will bust through the Easy Mode in no time at all and never actually learn. They will condemn the game for reasons that simply wouldn't exist when playing on its intended difficulty. There SHOULD be a barrier to keep out "casuals" that only want to push a button and see pretty lights, because that's leaving out all the vital parts that makes Dark Souls so thrilling.

Do you think there are many reviewers that aren't hardcore gamers? Are you aware of Dark Souls' 89 on metacritic? It would seem that reviewers can handle the difficulty and that with a name as prestigious as Dark Souls, they would know better than to not play it on the intended difficulty. Even if they did play it on the easy mode, I would argue that they will still see it for what it is. You should remember that an easy mode isn't a "press A and everything is sunshine and roses." It is, more often than not, a mode where enemies deal decreased damage and have lower health/defense. If the player needs the easy mode, they will likely still struggle and experience hopelessness in the game.

Let's consider another aspect of this easy mode business. Lets say that the individual playing easy mode is doing so because they need to. After they finish the game and find that they are enjoying themselves, they want to try a harder difficulty. They start the normal difficulty with the full understanding of how the game works and will do decently because of their experience. There will still be more for them to learn, as they haven't experienced all the depth there is in Dark Souls, but they will continue playing because they will be having fun. He continues playing and eventually gets good enough to be considered what we would call a hardcore gamer. The easy mode allowed that casual player to become hardcore, and they will eventually give back to the industry by buying hardcore games that they can now enjoy.

Welcome to a better gaming world. One where an optional easy mode in a game won't get your panties in a twist.

Considering that the majority of the satisfaction of Dark Souls is from the journey and the learning, and especially the overcoming, an easy mode just can't work for that sort of game.

Here's another analogy. Imagine, two miles away, there is a crate full of cash. The Dark Souls method: Run, pussy. The alternative method: Well, you can run, or you can take this moped. Your choice.

It's immediately apparent how much more satisfaction you will have when you run the gauntlet over the moped option, but what is less apparent is the fact that even providing an option will make many people forsake satisfaction just to have easy rewards. This ties back in with Moby Dick. If I ever end up reading a novel like that in the future, I will read it in vanilla English, pausing only to look up definitions, the way it was intended to be read. Reading a Cliff Notes version might count as "reading the book" to a teacher, but it isn't nearly as fun and doesn't require any effort.

This is one of the longest posts I've made in some time, and possibly the longest one that isn't a response to someone else, so I apologize if it jumps around or doesn't fully explain certain bits that I may at first think are self-apparent.

Consider those who try to run the gauntlet and cannot, or find that their goal is actually debt notes rather than cash (they aren't having fun), should they keep running? Should they keep trying to get the money? No. They should take the damn moped. Learn the road, then try running the gauntlet again for more money.

 

[chadachada123]

If I buy Moby Dick, and can't understand it because I'm a shitty reader or not interested in something like "theming" and "metaphors," I have several options. The option most analogous to an "easy mode" is just reading the Cliff Notes summary of Moby Dick. Sure, it'll explain the metaphors and themes, but it is missing, you know, the READING part. The option most like what Dark Souls has is: Learn to read first, then come back.

How uh, exactly is buying the cliff notes version of moby dick missing the reading part?

I put reading in caps because I didn't really know how else to say it. I did not literally mean "reading." I meant the enjoyment that comes from the reading.

Reading the Cliff Notes version is analogous to pushing a button and seeing "WINNER" appear on the screen, in that the former is skipping the whole "reading the damn book" part, and the latter is skipping the "playing the damn game" part.

 

[Mortrialus]

Hey i don't like chocolate they should make all chocolate taste of something i like so i can be cool and say i like chocolate too.

Strawman.

Also, an extremely poor analogy.

Changing the taste of all chocolate affects everyone who eats chocolate.
Adding easy mode to a game affects only those who play on easy.

But an easy mode DOES affect players regardless of whether or not they use it. One of the reasons why Dark Souls is so successful, why it has such a devoted and dedicated following in the first game is because it's one of the few modern AAA games in which there exists the possibility for failure, that you might not be able to complete the game. This gives the game a huge sense of tension and dread which makes progressing through the game all the more satisfying. If you add an easy mode which is designed specifically to allow everyone to complete the game, even if I never use the feature it changes the game. All that tension and dread, it all vanishes. It's gone completely. There is always an easy way out if things get challenging. I am at that point guaranteed to beat the game.

You can say "It's optional", but it subtly affects my entire gaming experience even if I never use it.

 

[VyceVictus]

snippy

I think that there can be other ways beyond the proverbial cliff notes. Like how in school, we would read through classic prose and just with the slight aide of the teacher who knew the material professionally we as a class would discuss what it meant. I think there can be any number of additions or mechanic modifications that can still enrich the experience that dont have to be flat out cheats. As with the book analogy,if the game came with its own in code forms of working groups, after school teacher assistance, or thorough dictionary, that wouldnt at all be adverse to the overall challenge of the game. "Help" doesnt automatically have to make the challenge "easy" or "a given".

I would agree, except...that Dark Souls already has help in it, assuming you're playing online. The messages left by other players and the ability to summon others to help are both included right with the game. Outside of the game, the various wikis and forums are filled with all the stats and lore and help you could ever want.

All of the information is there and easy to find if you want an easier time of it.

But you still need to actually play the game. All of the teacher's help in the world won't matter if you still can't navigate a sentence, let alone understand Moby Dick. In the same vein, if you are able to just hack-and-slash your way through the game via an "easy" mode, you are missing what makes it so enjoyable.

I'm not opposed to offering more tools to encourage communication, but I AM opposed to giving people an easy way out when the enjoyment is primarily from NOT having an easy way out.

This goes back to my earlier comment about how although unique, the co-op element was, for me, not a good mechanic implemented. One shouldn't have to be online to access the "in game help" as it were. And whats the point of a wiki to explain a core mechanic of the game (humanity) that should be explained in game. You cant hack and slash your way out of cheap mechanics like invisible ledges or losing your souls and humanity when you die. Again, to me this is more an issue with mechanics and balance than with it being too difficult or easy. If the developers decided to put out optional add ons that effect this, it should not detract from the experience others are having. And beyond that, there's more the game than just being hard.

 

[GrimHeaper]

If you don't like it why do you want to play? Why do you think a 5 hour game with next to no story and a deep but pointless stats and equipment system and no comunity due to no need for co-op would be a good game?

You aren't making much sense. Are you okay?
Who are you even talking to?

 

[chadachada123]

There is a massive issue that isn't addressed at all, but is incredibly important, I feel.

If I buy Moby Dick, and can't understand it because I'm a shitty reader or not interested in something like "theming" and "metaphors," I have several options. The option most analogous to an "easy mode" is just reading the Cliff Notes summary of Moby Dick. Sure, it'll explain the metaphors and themes, but it is missing, you know, the READING part. The option most like what Dark Souls has is: Learn to read first, then come back.

Are you implying that one does not read cliff notes? Cliff Notes do allow you to understand the theming and metaphors, it is just an easier way of going about it. This doesn't hold much in the argument, it is just poking a hole in your analogy.

snip

Do you think there are many reviewers that aren't hardcore gamers? Are you aware of Dark Souls' 89 on metacritic? It would seem that reviewers can handle the difficulty and that with a name as prestigious as Dark Souls, they would know better than to not play it on the intended difficulty. Even if they did play it on the easy mode, I would argue that they will still see it for what it is. You should remember that an easy mode isn't a "press A and everything is sunshine and roses." It is, more often than not, a mode where enemies deal decreased damage and have lower health/defense. If the player needs the easy mode, they will likely still struggle and experience hopelessness in the game.

Let's consider another aspect of this easy mode business. Lets say that the individual playing easy mode is doing so because they need to. After they finish the game and find that they are enjoying themselves, they want to try a harder difficulty. They start the normal difficulty with the full understanding of how the game works and will do decently because of their experience. There will still be more for them to learn, as they haven't experienced all the depth there is in Dark Souls, but they will continue playing because they will be having fun. He continues playing and eventually gets good enough to be considered what we would call a hardcore gamer. The easy mode allowed that casual player to become hardcore, and they will eventually give back to the industry by buying hardcore games that they can now enjoy.

Welcome to a better gaming world. One where an optional easy mode in a game won't get your panties in a twist.

snip

Consider those who try to run the gauntlet and cannot, or find that their goal is actually debt notes rather than cash (they aren't having fun), should they keep running? Should they keep trying to get the money? No. They should take the damn moped. Learn the road, then try running the gauntlet again for more money.

I'll have to edit the "READING" bit, because people don't seem to understand my meaning there. I am not saying that Cliff Notes literally does not require reading, just that it carried no enjoyment because it's taking out the, for lack of a better phrase, FREAKING READING part. The part where you read the words and enjoy the vocabulary and phrasing of every other sentence, the fun part of reading instead of the text book parts of it.

Sure, you can understand the themes with Cliff Notes, but you won't truly appreciate them unless you've witnessed them as they were intended. I contend that the same lack of appreciation is had with most easy modes of video games.

As far as the final bit, yeah, that is actually the first argument I've seen that holds any weight whatsoever, and something I'll have to think about.

I just worry that the benefit gained from "people beating easy mode first then graduating" will be lost by people going to easy mode first and never graduating, or, alternately, that game developers will continue their trend of making the hardest difficulty STILL too damn easy. Hopefully I'm wrong.