Jimquisition: Free To Wait
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
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Wow, I don't think I've seen Jim so pissed off. He's right though, this practice is utter shite and should die in a fire along with every developer/publisher that utilizes it.
You sound pretty enraged about it. I would appreciate your critique of how AirMech fits what you describe. AirMech Prime for $20 lets you buy the game. The free part lets you try it out. This is a good thing for gamers...canadamus_prime said:
I haven't played that one. Although I have played a couple of games on Kongregate that use that business model. Although calling them games is being more than a tad generous since there is absolutely no gameplay whatsoever. This one called Time World is the worst. While technically you don't have to pay anything, all you do is sit on your ass and do nothing while you wait for your buildings to upgrade or your ships to be built or some other damn thing. And even when you get into the story the battles consist of sitting there watching ships shoot at each other with 0 involvement on your part. And of course you have the option to pay real world money to recruit additional heroes and presumably speed up building/research times and whatever. Ugh!CarbonJames said:
I noticed you and a couple of other people invoking people's right to free choice here, and that's fair enough. No-one wants to stamp on anyone's freedom. But I would say there's a grey area here.Imperator_DK said:
You have, on one hand, a guy randomly scanning the app store on the way to work with his mind on auto-pilot. On the other hand, you have a company which has paid lots of money to people with expensive degrees who have refined psychological manipulation into a science. (Seriously, if you research it, these companies put an insane amount of effort into understanding and utilising people's subconscious triggers.) And let's not forget the company also has brazenly falsified user reviews on their side. Free choice can be corrupted, is what I'm saying.
Now, a GENUINE free choice scenario would be that you look up the game on the app store and in the details it shows you a burgeoning, full-sized dungeon and tells you that you can have it for either $300 or 18 months, or any combination of the two. If someone makes that choice, eyes open, then I agree with you 100%. But EA knows that's not a realistic business model so they manipulate, and free choice is tarnished.
geier said:
Simply put, hes probably invested in the Dungeon Keeper franchise. And second this is a cancer, they are getting away with it. Theres other things about this game that are HIGHLY UNETHICAL, like when poorly reviewing them game, on the ios store it navigates you away so its harder to finish the reivew!
Were that we lived in a world of infinite resources that would be true. But alas this is not so, and when this pay to win scenario bubble bursts, as people like Jim keep telling it will, it will hurt the entire industry. If you see a person standing next to you using 100 tons of TNT as bonfire, will you just say: "oh well, that wont affect me"?geier said:
Also money siphoned out of our misguided gamer brothers/sisters will not only bloat the bubble to come, but will also mean less money on games you too would probably like to see succeeding. Also free publicity really only can be good so far, I don't think that EA likes the "free publicity" of having been voted worst company in america for example.
Lets not forget guys that the whole reason we use the friendly and catchy term of "Free to Play" is because it's a contraction from an ambiguous detractor; as in: "Free to play... but this bit costs X"
There are lots of totally free games that are of course 'free to play' and in fact most games we buy ahead of time are in a way 'free to play' once bought. But we don't call them that because there's no reason to praise how 'free' they are. The no. 1 thing publishers want you to know about these F2P games is that's you can play them now! No, Money Down!
The only F2P game I've enjoyed is Hawken and I'm still upset that it's F2P when I originally thought it was a traditional purchase. The grim matter of it is that every single F2P game is designed to compromise gameplay in ways to encourage spending. In my opinion they are little more than Gambling Machines; made to suck as much money from anybody they manage to addict.
We need to keep buying the game and playing the game separate. Traditionally gamers never paid to play games (except like arcade games, and although I despise that too, it's a bit more like renting the system for x minutes) but instead we paid to get into the position to play.
If the big issue is getting more accessible free games into the hands of players before they're convinced to spend then I'm all for more demos and game trials. Trials is the best option to me because it gets the proper experience in the hands of players ASAP and then with the same fun and addictive gameplay the players are convinced to purchase the game.
Also I don't mind the rage at developers like this. This is the 21st Century and if we want to advance as a society we can't let the fact that people need money become an excuse for unethical business practice. I see it the same way as Japanese Whalers: the workers on the boat are probably just experienced fishermen that work their job, but they're still the ones firing harpoons into defenceless animals, fully aware that it's unsustainable and wrong.
There are lots of totally free games that are of course 'free to play' and in fact most games we buy ahead of time are in a way 'free to play' once bought. But we don't call them that because there's no reason to praise how 'free' they are. The no. 1 thing publishers want you to know about these F2P games is that's you can play them now! No, Money Down!
The only F2P game I've enjoyed is Hawken and I'm still upset that it's F2P when I originally thought it was a traditional purchase. The grim matter of it is that every single F2P game is designed to compromise gameplay in ways to encourage spending. In my opinion they are little more than Gambling Machines; made to suck as much money from anybody they manage to addict.
We need to keep buying the game and playing the game separate. Traditionally gamers never paid to play games (except like arcade games, and although I despise that too, it's a bit more like renting the system for x minutes) but instead we paid to get into the position to play.
If the big issue is getting more accessible free games into the hands of players before they're convinced to spend then I'm all for more demos and game trials. Trials is the best option to me because it gets the proper experience in the hands of players ASAP and then with the same fun and addictive gameplay the players are convinced to purchase the game.
Also I don't mind the rage at developers like this. This is the 21st Century and if we want to advance as a society we can't let the fact that people need money become an excuse for unethical business practice. I see it the same way as Japanese Whalers: the workers on the boat are probably just experienced fishermen that work their job, but they're still the ones firing harpoons into defenceless animals, fully aware that it's unsustainable and wrong.
I played the Simpsons Tapped Out for few days and I wholeheartedly agree with this video. What I found particularly atrocious about that game was the currency conversion from real money to game money. The entire point of the game is to make a little Springfield by buying buildings. The average cost of a premium building is about $8-10 though which is insane. There are dozens of these things that you can buy and they have it all set up so that you can drop $100 in one go. For a freaking mobile game. You could buy 10 actual games on Steam for the same price as buying some decorations for this non-game. The majority of Tapped Out's content is behind this paywall too. Almost all of the in-game characters and buildings can ONLY be gotten by paying an absurd price, only the bear essentials are parts of the game.
I'm happy to spend money on games (I probably spend more than I should on them) but I've basically decided to stay away from anything that just looks like a bottomless pit for me to drop my cash into. Once I buy a game, I would rather just be able to live in a consequence-free environment and not have to worry about losing even more money.
I'm happy to spend money on games (I probably spend more than I should on them) but I've basically decided to stay away from anything that just looks like a bottomless pit for me to drop my cash into. Once I buy a game, I would rather just be able to live in a consequence-free environment and not have to worry about losing even more money.
i think Metro GameCentral put it best
"Dungeon Keeper is not a video game, not any more. Instead it?s just a virtual beggar, constantly demanding your spare change and offering nothing in return."
i read their review, it was even more damming that Jim's and every single fucking word in it was true, i like this kind of thing, when publishers act like this, professional reviewers should tell it like it is
so yeah, fantastic work for both you Jima and David Jenkins from Metro GameCentral
"Dungeon Keeper is not a video game, not any more. Instead it?s just a virtual beggar, constantly demanding your spare change and offering nothing in return."
i read their review, it was even more damming that Jim's and every single fucking word in it was true, i like this kind of thing, when publishers act like this, professional reviewers should tell it like it is
so yeah, fantastic work for both you Jima and David Jenkins from Metro GameCentral
Warframe as much as I love it, is guilty of this shit as well. When I've gone to all the effort of getting all the resources, why do I have to wait to use the thing I've constructed, but oooh I could spend 5 bucks and get it now!
I'm good Digital Extremes, thank you.
I suppose their only saving grace is that you can actually make all the weapons and so forth by doing the hard yards in game, and actually feels more satisfying to have "made" the content yourself.
I'm good Digital Extremes, thank you.
I suppose their only saving grace is that you can actually make all the weapons and so forth by doing the hard yards in game, and actually feels more satisfying to have "made" the content yourself.
For what it's worth I completely agree with you. What I am doing to try to help is use the model of free to try in a fair way, in the hopes that people no longer tolerate shitty games that do those things.canadamus_prime said:
I think that pure rage at F2P hurts things because there's plenty of devs that feel the same way, and all it does is keep them from trying to help solve the problem. Instead they just keep making games for the big pubs for $60, refuse to put out demos, and now microtrans is infecting full price games--now THAT is something to rage at.
Devs are making evil F2P games because they can, and people are playing them. With enough quality alternatives (several have been mentioned in this thread) eventually (hopefully) people will reject that crap and demand fair games.
It's kind of a "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" situation. The model can be great for gamers when done right--for example if someone doesn't like AirMech after playing it, no problem! I didn't take your money, no hard feelings either way. As a gamer myself I hate purchase regret, and really like the fact that I know people who do spend money in our game are doing it because they want to support us.
For reference, here's AirMech. Early access, but as F2P you don't have to pay to play--remember back when beta tests were free? http://store.steampowered.com/app/206500/ Doing F2P right means you're operating a demo essentially. Players can grind if they really want, or put down the price of a normal indie game to get all the gameplay bits, plus all the perks from lifetime VIP. Sorry if that sounds like too much self-promotion, but I'm really proud of what we offer and honestly do welcome any criticism of how we can become the perfect example of how to do F2P "right".
So why don't you just not play the game? Instead of immediately realizing it's a pay-to-play pile of crap and uninstalling it you went and told everyone about it. Now a bunch of people are going to download it and if even one of those people spends money in it you just did EA a favour. You're supposed to ignore it and let it die.
Because if just one person who didn't realize this doesn't play the game because of what he's said, he's done the world a favor.Joshtopher_Biggins said:
Free2Wait is a model that preys on people that don't know any better. There's no real gameplay, so no skill is ever involved with the game, meaning that literally anyone and their grandma can play it. They start out with very low paywalls that are about a dollar or less, so that they feel okay with spending some money on the game to wait less, plus the game was free to begin with, so where's the harm in that?
I caught my mom playing a free2wait game for awhile, and she spent over 2 hundred fucking dollars on it. if you just ignore this kind of thing, more people will keep playing the game and companies like EA win. since when has ignoring the problem ever been a good idea?
This is literally the same logic as slots. They nickle and dime you slowly, with occasional light rewards, sometimes maybe giving you a net gain, but almost always totally a loss overall. They just found a way to do it to minors and other people from the comfort of their own home, sometimes without them realizing. It's just vile.
Give Path to Exile some love. Totally optional cosmetic micro-transactions which actually straight up calls micro-transactions.
I do agree that all this harping on about Dungeon Keeper is doing no one any favors. You are simply giving that game free press. The minute I saw Mobile F2P I was aware of what it was going to be and simply ignored it.
I do agree that all this harping on about Dungeon Keeper is doing no one any favors. You are simply giving that game free press. The minute I saw Mobile F2P I was aware of what it was going to be and simply ignored it.
Is this really a scam? It not like you can't see what it is and it's sneakily taking money from your account. If people are buying it they are getting something out of it personally or they are just stupid. Either way how much money they spend on these things is on their heads and I don't see why we should care.