Jimquisition: Gamer Entitlement

[Vivi22]

Isn't the answer alway between the two extremes? (Sometimes right next to one of them)

No. People who say the answer is always between two extremes are just afraid of taking sides. Sometimes it's between two extremes, sometimes it isn't.

 

[00slash00]

Who has tried to make Anita Sarkeesian's videos disappear? I mostly see people arguing against her with, like, logic and arguments.

The people who send her death and rape threats and the people who flag all her videos in droves, in an attempt to get them taken down. I also know of at least one fake Feminist Frequency Twitter account that exists to try and damage her reputation

 

[Vizanto]

Yea, there are trolls for sure. She doesn't have comments on her youtube videos, so it's not there. Honestly, I think it's mostly manufactured. We keep hearing that there are hordes of psychos who just want her gone and think that threatening to rape her is a good thing to do, but I never see or hear anything from them. I've just seen some videos of people countering her points and being critical of her in valid, if not always sound, ways.

It may not be too extreme, but within this very thread there is a entitled child who went on a mind-numbingly stupid against her. So it is there. It's just died down since the beginning, where it was really bad. Especially during the first kick starter campaign.

 

[cerebus23]

Right here on the Escapist I've seen people hoping that FUN succeed in their recent attack on TB, and not just in their attempt to get his video of their game removed, but in removing every video he has ever made. Why? Because these people don't like TB.

Pretty much fits with Jim's definition of gamer entitlement, that.

Yep amazingly germain to politics as well.

Too many people result to flames or insults and go defcon 12 and want that thing gone. when we should call out bs when we see it, but respect other rights to have a different outlook and if your going to debate try to stay on facts and not cut and run with the bottom barrel trolls.

 

[The Apple BOOM]

I would say another place where I could call it gamer entitlement is when people feel that they have the right to beat a game. I'm not talking about the types of games where you can't win because of a bug or because you don't want to do microtransactions, but a game that is too hard for you. There are a lot of people that I see criticize perfectly fine game like Donkey Kong Country Returns or Wonderful 101 because they're too hard. That drives me up the wall. As if every game needs to have a golden tanuki suit or flutter wings if you fail at a level too many times.

Isn't the answer alway between the two extremes? (Sometimes right next to one of them)

The Radical Republicans were an extreme because they believed people of all races should have equal rights and everyone who tried to unlawfully take those rights away should be punished. Sometimes the extreme is the answer.

 

[Stavros Dimou]

I will tell you what.
"GAMER ENTITLEMENT" is a behavior that is a reaction to another behavior,one of publishers and developers.
Let's see how it happens.

The root of the problem is a mentality a lot of publishers and developers have that the NAME of a video game is able to sell a game alone.It has become a common tactic and mentality across DEVS,and PUBS that whenever they are to make a new game,whatever that game might be,they will pick up the title of ANOTHER game,just for the sake of MAKING PEOPLE BELIEVE THE NEW GAME WILL HAVE SOME RELATION TO AN OLD ONE,WHILE IT'S NOT NECESSARY THE CASE.
It's quite simple: They make their own game,the game they want to sell,but because they are not sure it's going to sell they pick up the name of an already existing series with the hope that some nostalgic fools will hand over their money to buy a game that plays completely differently and has barely or not at all any resemblance with what the TITLE they picked up is associated with.

It's happening everywhere.
PERFECT DARK ZERO played nothing like PERFECT DARK.
DUKE NUKEM FOREVER played nothing like DUKE NUKEM 3D
WOLFENSTEIN 2009 played nothing like RETURN TO CASTLE WOLFENSTEIN
DUNGEON KEEPER MOBILE plays nothing like DUNGEON KEEPER 1,2
PREY 2 looked nothing like PREY 1
And the list goes on...


I could keep writing of examples.
The thing is,when a game is BAD and the DEVS/PUBS know that,they will pick a name of a good series in hopes that they will get some sales from the nostalgic fans.


And that's when the so called "PLAYER ENTITLEMENT" comes in.
It's a natural reaction to being fooled and lied. It's what you get when someone realizes that all the values,standards,attributes,and characteristics associated with a beloved brand aren't there on something that supposedly is part of the brand. It feels like getting convinced to buy an iPhone only to discover that it's not an iPhone,but a Chinese imitation that functions nothing like the original,and breaks one or two days after you bought it by itself.

If in the near future more DEV/PUBs are going to keep to naming GREEN games "RED" to convince people who like red to buy them even though they are actually green,there is going to be a lot of "GAMER ENTITLEMENT" anger on the internets.
If though DEV/PUBs become more honest and either name their new games a new name,or whenever they pick a pre-existing brand they carry on the distinctive features and standards of this brand,that people came to associate with this brand,then there will be no "GAMER ENTITLEMENT RAGE".

Pretty simple.

 

[00slash00]

A world where I can say that I love the Fina Fantasy 13 series and that I was satisfied with the Mass Effect 3 ending, without being attacked? Do I dare to dream?

 

[Vizanto]

Well yeah, we're talking about random clowns because those are the gamers and this is an article about gamer entitlement. Yeah, most of the mainstream press ignores and any prominent critic about her would resort to rape threats (I doubt any critic could really get away with that with anyone) but we aren't talking about them. We are talking a section of the gaming community that treats her that way. If that's not what you were talking about then fine, but that's what we were talking about and we think it's a problem. Again, if you don't think that's a problem then fine, because then that would mean an entirely different argument.

 

[Makabriel]

Where is the line between acceptable and unacceptable mechanics?

In the eyes of the beholder, mostly. When it comes to game design it's a matter of taste, so it's mostly a case of "I, as a consumer and fan of the series, did not like what you did with the ending of the game".

/snip

Precisely.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned D3, seeing as it was almost 1/3 of the footage in this video. And it's basically the same thing as ME3. People were so pissy about it because it wasn't Diablo 2. Set aside the RMAH and always online, that's what people hated about the game. But, (IMHO of course)It's really a good fun game. If D1 and D2 didn't exist, people wouldn't be half as bitchy about it as they are.

It's all about What People Want as opposed to what the publishers gave them.

 

[TheDefenestrator]

I think holding up Erik Kain as an absolutist point of view is a misrepresentation, honestly. Having read his stuff since the ME3 debacle, he's been firm in his insistence that "gamer entitlement" is a wildly overused and misused term (not unlike the points Jim made himself) but never to the exclusion of basic common sense. I went back and re-read the "Pernicious Myth Of Gamer Entitlement" article Jim referenced to double-check and it is pretty one-sided but later articles better fleshed out his point of view as almost a mirror of Jim's. (He is a blogger for Forbes magazine, after all.)

Considering how he's been publicly and childishly derided as an unprofessional panderer by certain gaming journalists for taking a position that was unpopular amongst his peers (most of whom didn't know he existed prior to ME3) it would just be nice if people pumped the brakes a bit on using him as a poster boy. His actual opinion is more nuanced than he's been given credit for.

 

[Banzaiman]

snip

I think the entitlement Jim is referring to is the more extreme actions - like the attempted lawsuit. It's all wishy-washy opinion based, but general consensus seems to be that a lawsuit over a game ending might be pushing it a little. False advertising might have a stand, but in the end the only real damage is a very disappointing game and another coat of dark paint on what was an already pitch-black company to some.

Other than that, I'm totally with the unhappy customers on this one. Especially since EA had the nerve to release day one DLC made with some funding from the game itself - resources that could easily have been put toward a more dedicated ending. Unless my information on that is outdated.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

So what are we talking about? Any clown that posts on a forum? Trolls are trolls. Not much can be done about that.

I didn't see anything in the post on this thread indicating that it was a troll, and not genuine rage. You seem to be dismissing anyone who expresses hatred towards her as a simply a "troll" and that somehow means they don't count. It's similar to the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

Even if it was a troll, why does that make it not matter? The aim of trolls is to be hurtful and disruptive. With your logic, it seems that there can never actually be any hatred on the internet, because anyone who expresses hatred is labeled a troll, and therefore don't matter (for some reason I don't understand).

Trolls are scum. Pretending they don't matter is like sticking your head in the sand. Of course they matter.

I haven't seen a lot of them, and calling someone a ***** or saying, truthfully, that mentioning her sparks arguments doesn't mean that you want her to disappear or have her videos removed.

But that's not what I was responding to. You said you had only seen people responding with valid criticisms. I responded with evidence from this very thread that that isn;t the case. Now you are changing your argument.

And how can you not think that all the people who complain about hearing her name on The Escapist don;t want her to disappear? How can you complain that the floods of people flagging her videos don't want them removed?

I'm mostly referring to articles and youtube videos about the subject. I just think that she gets too much credit for what she has said, and any time someone speaks about her without being critical, they perpetuate the myth that all of her critics are just angry trolls talking about rape.

I don't think anybody ever claimed that all of her critics are angry trolls. But there certainly seems to be a lot of them. And even the most reasonable critics often seem to pepper their arguments with personal angles and tangential arguments that aren't really relevant, such as complaining about how much money she made on Kickstarter.

So, yeah, a lot of her "critics" really are just angry misogynists. And even the highest standards of rational criticism of her aren't that great.

 

[wulf3n]

Good episode...

Except the things Jim mentioned as "Gamer Entitlement" aren't inherently entitlement.

A person may want a certain thing and fight for it, but it doesn't mean the feel entitled to it. They may, but it's hard to prove.

I wish gamers would stop popularizing the misuse of words.

 

[Ishal]

Great video.

As a someone who didn't enjoy ME3's ending, and especially didn't enjoy how Bioware handled the criticism, I was vocal, but not demanding. I never demanded my money back, I never demanded any info on the indoctrination theory be recognized by the writers, I never demanded a fix to the ending. I didn't even want any DLC. I just left. I left the BSN, I sold all my Mass Effect games, and haven't purchased an EA title since. I don't really feel that makes me an "entitled fanboi."

 

[Goliath100]

No. People who say the answer is always between two extremes are just afraid of taking sides. Sometimes it's between two extremes, sometimes it isn't.

Can I get an example of that? Note: My counter argument will be (if any) that your example is not two extremes.

Speak of the devil...

The Radical Republicans were an extreme because they believed people of all races should have equal rights and everyone who tried to unlawfully take those rights away should be punished

Sorry, that is not an extreme because of the use of word; "unlawfully".

...but because it was bad for a GAME, specifically an RPG TRILOGY, mechanic wise. ...

Where is the line between acceptable and unacceptable mechanics?

Specifically for the Mass Effect series ?
Think about that: On the box of the first game of the series,the description on the back of the box cover names the game a "RPG".On the box of the third game of the series,in the description on the back side of the cover the game is described as a "Shooter".
Why do you think EA changed the description of the latest game,and what does that actually means ?

I was thinking in general, but even for ME, that is not specific enough.