Jimquisition: Gamer Entitlement

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Grace_Omega

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Stavros Dimou said:
It's happening everywhere.
PERFECT DARK ZERO played nothing like PERFECT DARK.
DUKE NUKEM FOREVER played nothing like DUKE NUKEM 3D
WOLFENSTEIN 2009 played nothing like RETURN TO CASTLE WOLFENSTEIN
DUNGEON KEEPER MOBILE plays nothing like DUNGEON KEEPER 1,2
PREY 2 looked nothing like PREY 1
And the list goes on...
OCARINA OF TIME played nothing like A LINK TO THE PAST*
METROID PRIME played nothing like SUPER METROID*
MARIO 64 played nothing like SUPER MARIO WORLD
GOLDENEYE played nothing like WHATEVER CRAPPY JAMES BOND GAMES CAME OUT BEFORE IT
RESIDENT EVIL 4 played nothing like EVERY PREVIOUS RESIDENT EVIL

Franchises and series have to depart from their roots, otherwise those properties become stagnant. Many of the most acclaimed games of the modern era came about because developers weren't afraid to step out of the shadow of the past and do something different. We would never have gotten Mario 64 if Nintendo listened to opinions like this. And sometimes updating a classic franchise goes horribly wrong- believe me, I'm a Silent Hill fan, I know all about that. But people still have to try.

If they didn't we'd just get an endless cycle of the same thing over and over again, with slight variations in story and gameplay. Not only would customers get bored with this eventually, the developers themselves would get tired of making them. That's something a lot of people often seem to forget, just because you want something doesn't mean developers have to make it.

Hell, in at least two of these examples you're making comparisons with games that came out well over a decade ago. I would hope a modern incarnation of a franchise wouldn't play much like something that came out when PCs were still using floppy drives.

There's only one real criticism you can lay at the feet of all of those games you listed: they're all terrible. And they're terribly because they're *bad games*, not because

*(Some people are probably going to take issue with a few of these, and while it's true that OoT and Metroid Prime held onto a lot of gameplay structures from their 2D predecessors, there were enough changes made that the experience of playing them still felt very different)
 

Nixou

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I disagree with Jim's stance about the "Game companies are businesses" argument. When I, for one, say "X is a business", what I mean is not "Shut up and be grateful to these Hallowed Jobs Creators"; what I mean is "You should never expect a for-profit company to do the right thing without strong outside pressure".

Semantics aside, there's a seldom mentioned effect on hardcore gamers entitlement: how often it translates into misaimed complaints and outrage.

For instance:
How the Mass Effect series caught a lot of hate for giving an ending that did not pander to its audience power fantasies, yet few complained about the staggering number of glitches and bugs in the PS3 versions, or about the level design becoming increasingly simplistic and CoDesque as the series progressed.

Or
How Nintendo has been under constant fire for refusing to suicidally re-enter the hardware arms race, but received virtually no criticism for remaining understaffed even said understaffing led them to release a new console running on an unfinished OS

When one is presenting peccadillos, or worse, deliberate choices in design as unforgivable blunder to the point of completely ignoring much larger problems, it's very likely that one is indeed indulging in entitlement.

***

I've never seen anyone mention the entitlement issue ever since the ME3 crisis. It pretty much went away a few weeks after the extended cut.

The thing about Mass Effect 3's ending was that there were actually two very distinct groups of complainers:
One disliked the ending because it was in their view too short and not detailed enough. After over a hundred hours of game, they wished and expected for something akin to FF6's ending.
The second group despised the ending because they wanted a triumphalist conclusion [http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/03/16] to their power fantasy.
One group was providing legitimate criticism, the other one was indeed a bunch of entitled manchildren pissed because their collective masturbatory power-fantasy about being an invincible Space Marine was pretty much shattered when Harbinger crippled Shepard at the end, and this group was waaaaaaay more noisy than the rest, to the point were an outside observer could be forgiven if she concluded that the second group was the only one to exist.

Thankfully, the extended cut gave a more satisfactory conclusion to the first group while giving a resounding Fuck You Very Much to the second group in the form of the fourth ending. This affair ended miraculously well because Bioware managed to address the thoughtful complains without caving to the whims of the vociferous entitled group and pulling an I Am Legend.
 

Nieroshai

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00slash00 said:
A world where I can say that I love the Fina Fantasy 13 series and that I was satisfied with the Mass Effect 3 ending, without being attacked? Do I dare to dream?
Let's go claim an uncharted island and populate it with our favorite maligned treasures. I swear, so often in the gaming community, I get maligned like a leper for liking unpopular games. Hell, I always felt like the ME3 endings had several important points to make, and even the game as a whole. For starters, sometimes the universe doesn't give a damn if you don't want something to happen. You aren't God, and happy or sad endings to a journey aren't always based on whether or not you deserve them. Even so, every choice ou made in the series ever has colored your choice in the final events. Why would you banish the Reapers instead of destroying them and all AI with them? Why would you choose synthesis? Is it not because you were led here, from the very moment you touched the Beacon; to be the Shepard who sacrifices him/herself to ensure the flock can be saved?
 

mjc0961

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My thought to this use of "entitled" as an insult has always been "Yes, I am entitled. When I hand over $60 for a product, I'm entitled to a quality product. And if a company doesn't want to provide a quality product, they are NOT entitled to my money. I'll spend it elsewhere."

So yes, go ahead and call me entitled because I don't accept the way Rockstar launched GTA V. Call me entitled because I won't pay $40 for the good version of Metal Gear Solid Ground Zeroes. Call me entitled because I won't pay $500 for an Xbox One, which is $100 more than it's more powerful competitor because MS focused on a fancy camera instead of horsepower. Call me entitled because I won't buy digital stuff over a certain price point from Nintendo because they tie digital purchases to the hardware instead of to the Nintendo Network account you can have on both 3DS and Wii U now.

Go ahead because I am entitled god dammit. I bust my ass to earn my money, and these companies had better damn well bust their asses in kind if they want any of it. If I was as lazy and half-assed things as much as these game publishers and platform holders do, I'd get fired so they could hire somebody better to take my place. So why should I just hand over my money for something that's half-assed and not up to snuff?

It's publishers who need to stop acting so entitled, not the gaming consumers. Stop acting so entitled to our money and start fucking earning our money with quality products and services.

Nixou said:
Semantics aside, there's a seldom mentioned effect on hardcore gamers entitlement: how often it translates into misaimed complaints and outrage.

For instance:
How the Mass Effect series caught a lot of hate for giving an ending that did not pander to its audience power fantasies, yet few complained about the staggering number of glitches and bugs in the PS3 versions, or about the level design becoming increasingly simplistic and CoDesque as the series progressed.

Or
How Nintendo has been under constant fire for refusing to suicidally re-enter the hardware arms race, but received virtually no criticism for remaining understaffed even said understaffing led them to release a new console running on an unfinished OS
I've seen both of those criticized before. In fact, I've criticized Mass Effect myself for that very thing: turning into more and more a generic third person shooter, complete with crappy cover and dodge mechanics that don't work well because they map too much stuff to one button. And even if people don't realize it, when they complain about Wii U not having enough games, they're effectively complaining about Nintendo's poor staffing and preparation for HD game development. It's cause and effect. Most people are complaining about the effect, either because they don't know or care what the cause is.

Also, I could point out how you in turn singled out Nintendo for releasing a console with an unfinished OS but conveniently ignored that the PS4 and Xbone did the same thing. I'm actually quite pissed that Sony still hasn't made good on their promise to remove HDCP from the PS4, and I'm flabbergasted that Microsoft just released a firmware update to add hard drive management and a controller battery indicator to the Xbone. This kind of thing SHOULD be unnacceptable. Gamers should be riding Sony and Microsoft (and not in a good way) for this bullshit. Instead, gamers give Sony blowjobs for their latest firmware update which only added the ability for Sony to sell more of their own brand of headsets and forgive Xbone all its shortcomings because OMG TITANFALL IS COMING NEXT MONTH. I mean I know not everyone will care about HDCP as much as someone like me would, but how the fuck did Microsoft get away with not having the ability to manage your hard drive space on day one. Where was the outrage and cupcakes on that one?! >_<
 

BrainBlow

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00slash00 said:
A world where I can say that I love the Fina Fantasy 13 series and that I was satisfied with the Mass Effect 3 ending, without being attacked? Do I dare to dream?
What, someone put a gun to your head when you did? You want complete freedom from having your opinions criticized?
 

loa

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"Entitled" is not interchangeable with "bratty and childish".
It is a word that has neither positive nor negative connotation and must be put in context "stop acting like you're entitled to X".
"You're entitled" literally means absolutely nothing.
You always need to be entitled to something, just being "entitled" means about as much as being "searching" or "wanting".

I am puzzled how many people latched onto it as some sort of negative connotation and it is ironic how you call for a stop of the bastardization of this buzzword and then proceed to perpetuate it and stretch if even further by somehow suggesting that people attacking people for their opinions somehow falls under the ever expanding umbrella of "being entitled" which, at some point, will just be synonymous for "bad".

It boggles my mind.
 

Karadalis

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Right.. Anita is the only one whos allowed to post her opinions as fact and shut down any discussion by simply not allowing it and never ever answering her critics who bring up valid points...

Once again the Jesus Anita syndrome at work. Shes allowed to do what other people are being told off for on jimquisition as if she was an untouchable defender of justice when in truth she causes more damage for her cause then she does good.

For the rest thought i totaly agree. Hating Players of games you dont like is stupid since it really has no effect on you personaly. Yes its annyoing that everyone wanted to jump onto the CoD train but it certainly didnt stop the attempt of a comeback of the Space sim genre for example (star citizen) or the turn based strategy game genre (Warlock 2 and Age of wonders 3.. cant wait for the latter one)

Same for hating on "game journalists" when they simply enjoy a game. Thought there is a case to be made for reviews.. like a certain dragon age 2 review that gave perfect score totaly ignoring the glaring and kinda obvious issues with the game. You will have to accept that people call you out on your opinon and dispute it, if youre not prepared for that then what are you doing on the internet? BUT outright insulting and name calling goes way to far.

As for entitlement... if i pay up to 60 dollars i am well entitled to get the product as advertised including advertised features (looking at you ME3) simply as that. Just like any other industry out there.. the software industry is no special little flower like everyone makes it out to be. The only special rules are in copyrights and nothing else.
 

00slash00

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BrainBlow said:
00slash00 said:
A world where I can say that I love the Fina Fantasy 13 series and that I was satisfied with the Mass Effect 3 ending, without being attacked? Do I dare to dream?
What, someone put a gun to your head when you did? You want complete freedom from having your opinions criticized?
If by that you mean do I want to be free say I like a video game without people insulting me and then trying to convince me that my opinion is incorrect, then yes. Yes I do
 

Evonisia

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I find that most people who attack other people for having counter opinions are just being dick heads. I know because I often fall into that trap (though attempts are being made to stop that). I see your point, though.
 

Erttheking

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Karadalis said:
Right.. Anita is the only one whos allowed to post her opinions as fact and shut down any discussion by simply not allowing it and never ever answering her critics who bring up valid points...

Once again the Jesus Anita syndrome at work. Shes allowed to do what other people are being told off for on jimquisition as if she was an untouchable defender of justice when in truth she causes more damage for her cause then she does good.
The problem with the whole mess is that people can't just disagree with her. I disagree with her on a lot of points. But people, this website included, can't just disagree with her and stop there. They have to attack everything about her, the fact that she's wearing make up, the fact that years ago she said something that means we don't have to take anything she says seriously. Jim doesn't think that Anita is Jesus, I don't think that she's Jesus, but people are reacting to her so violently and viciously that people feel obligated to call out the abuse when they see it. Go ahead and disagree with her points, just argue with a logical and level head and attack her points, not her.
 

Villain Protagonist

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xPixelatedx said:
Jim, can you really blame people for being mad at the near perfect reviews for games like Mass Effect 3? I know you keep defending other game journalists, and keep saying there is no way anyone is giving anything but their honest opinion and they can have any opinion they want. The latter is most definitely true, but do you really blame people for not believing the former? The reason why I am using Mass Effect 3 is because that thing got pretty high reviews and good praise, while simultaneously being one of the most reviled and hated games ever made. The fallout was so bad the better business bureau was involved and certain places were offering full refunds for the game; even if it had been played. I've never even seen that before...

People were upset at the reviews, and yeah some people acted like spoiled brats and demanded they be changed. That I don't agree with, I'm with you there. People can have their stupid opinions, thats fine, but I don't think other people have to swallow BS either. I have no doubt Mass Effect 3 was potentially a good game for some people, maybe even great to others... but 90/100s, 100/100s, 9/10s and 10/10s!? Jim, are you telling me the kind of game that would create as much negative feedback as ME3 did is deserving of those scores? If a game that badly received is deserving of 10s and inane praise, then we might as well do away with game reviews all together, because there is no longer a use for them. That's why people are upset, this is a confirmation that A:'We are being bullshitted by people being paid to praise things', or B:The rating systems are so bizarre they don't even make any logical sense anymore, so they cannot be used for or applied to purchases of average consumers in any way'.
I agree. I think reasonable points like this too often get lost in the constant back and forth between the two extreme sides. Even, no especially, on the internet, discusion gets drowned out by those way too invested in proving the otherside not only wrong but intellectually or morally inferior to them based on one disagreement. No one can see anyone elses view point it's all just a massive pissing contest.
 

MailOrderClone

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I was quick to realize that people who attacked gamers for being entitled typically didn't have the customer's best interest in mind, and stopped going to those sites.
 

Lightknight

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Epic video against ad hominems and dismissal of others opinions or ability to have their own opinions. Thanks Jim.

People get to have an opinion, end of story. Whether their argument is specifically valid or not will indeed always be a case by case scenario but they still deserve to have their own side. If I'm wrong, it's not because I'm childish or foolish or any of that white noise, it's because the elements of my argument are incorrect. So a racist calling me a asshole for saying that we shouldn't be racist doesn't make my argument incorrect and isn't condusive to a legitimate discussion.

I've also always found ad hominems as a specific type of red herring. Saying that gamers are just being childish doesn't make us wrong even if true.

Nixou said:
I disagree with Jim's stance about the "Game companies are businesses" argument. When I, for one, say "X is a business", what I mean is not "Shut up and be grateful to these Hallowed Jobs Creators"; what I mean is "You should never expect a for-profit company to do the right thing without strong outside pressure".
If I'm interpreting the video correctly, Jim's argument wouldn't apply to you then. Your statement is merely an observation. It isn't an observation ergo people debating against what they've done should "shut up". It's merely saying that companies are going to keep on doing bad things unless sufficient reason not to do so is made manifest.

This would be more along the lines of people who say that we as the customers don't have any right to complain about DRM because companies are entitled to do what they want. What Jim is saying is that both sides are entitled so that argument is wrong by way of assuming the two sides having entitlement is somehow mutually exclusive.

Businesses are entitled to take reasonable actions to make money. Consumers are entitled to get what they paid for and to complain if they don't feel like that happened.

Those two entitlements do butt heads, but that's because they're in a sisyphian struggle of tug of war against one another. Dismissing one side because the other side exists is flawed by ignoring the fact that both exist so the other side can use the exact same logic to the same effect.
 

Imp_Emissary

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00slash00 said:
A world where I can say that I love the Final Fantasy 13 series and that I was satisfied with the Mass Effect 3 ending, without being attacked? Do I dare to dream?
As someone who didn't feel satisfied by ME3's ending, all I can say about your dream is;

x3 NOPE! *Bites your heal*

:) Nah, but really. As a Final Fantasy 12 fan, I can understand what you mean.

Given enough time, most reasonable people will chill out about it.
I didn't like the original ending, but I felt the DLC one they added made the whole thing more "digestible", without changing it TOO much from what it was before.
[sub][sub]Shep is always dead. :( But Shep lived well......Unless they were A-holes. ;p[/sub][/sub]
ultreos2 said:
Anita Sarkeesian is pushing a political goal and has nothing to do with the actual health of gamers.

I've seen all her videos and unless she releases another video proving otherwise, her intent is not the benefit of gamers but rather a political agenda akin to that of Jack Thompson.

Unless you agree with Jack Thompson Anita has no valid argument.
:D Dare to compare!
[http://s123.photobucket.com/user/robertklish2/media/Jack_Thompson_zpsde3ecf91.png.html]
"Oh, and certain regional governments in Japan have banned the sale of the Grand Theft Auto games to minors, but Japan's Sony has no problem whatsoever dumping this garbage into American kids' brains. Looks like Pearl Harbor 2 by Sony/Take-Two..."

[http://s123.photobucket.com/user/robertklish2/media/anita-sarkeesian_zps9e60bcb0.jpg.html]
"This series will include critical analysis of many beloved games and characters, but remember that it is both possible (and even necessary) to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of it's more problematic or pernicious aspects."


"Just to be clear, I am not saying that all games using the damsel in distress as a plot device are automatically sexist or have no value. But it's undeniable that popular culture is a powerful influence in or lives and the Damsel in Distress trope as a recurring trend does help to normalize extremely toxic, patronizing and paternalistic attitudes about women."

:) More here if you so wish it.
http://www.feministfrequency.com/2013/03/damsel-in-distress-part-1/

Transcript is under the video. =w= b [sub](<-Thumbs up face)[/sub]
 

Therumancer

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The problem is that a lot of the groups under attack are the ones that allow companies to do the things that your calling justified criticism. To put things into perspective, without say "Farmville" players you probably never wound have seen things like "Dungeon Keeper Online", without "Call Of Duty" players you wouldn't see shooter franchises strangling the market. For that matter without FPS players purchasing overpriced map packs it probably wouldn't have lead to the gaming industry embracing a lot of the DLC practices you see now. There is a point where you have to realize, as balanced and fair as you might want to be, that some groups of people DO represent a "cancer" afflicting the whole. The problem of course being that today people have been socially conditioned to think it's wrong to weed out groups of people and take action against them, and to look at the individual and what you can see on a personal level rather than looking at the type of person as a group or what that person does when your not around, whether that applies to general social politics, or more limited cosms like gaming.

Right now, the fact that the gaming industry can rely on the casual gamers to pretty much support whatever garbage they churn out, and prop up some of these business models, is exactly why casual gamers need to be forced out of gaming. On some levels those making points about "entitled" gamers being a minority are correct because so called "real" gamers have become a minority in their own hobby compared to the casual sheeple that make it viable to pretty much focus only on "Call Of Duty" and similar established franchises, neglect entire generes of games, and make enough money off of things like "Dungeon Keeper Mobile" that it and games like "Trexels" become a viable business strategy which overshadows all else.

If you target the companies and their practices exclusively, it makes no real difference because the core that allows them to sustain those practices remains untouched. Not only do you need to keep the pressure up on a business level, you ALSO need to put pressure on the base propping it up.

It should be noted that picking up a casual game and playing it occasionally is no big thing, that doesn't mean your not a real gamer if you wind up supporting other things as well. It should be noted that the problem here are the legions of people that play things like that, pay the money, and do little or nothing else.

Ideally the industry would take the time and effort to support all gamers, it would produce the casual games (including shooters), the turn based RPGs, the adventure games, metroidvania platformers and similar things in numbers sufficient to at least keep the gamers fairly satisfied, as opposed to focusing on the same money-grabbing garbage each year and maybe kicking over a decent RPG once in a blue moon (and once they do, casualization to make things "even more popular" sets in and generally divides the fan base). Neglect major audiences, especially groups like RPG fans that really were responsible for the gaming industry getting to the point where it is now, and expect backlash. Right now though the industry won't do that, it's content to simply focus on the most profitable sectors, rather than dealing with still profitable but not as profitable groups like serious RPG gamers, and as a result you see these kinds of tensions.


Now here comes the more controversial parts:

1. When it comes to Anita Sarkessian, it should be noted she is by and large a cancer on the gaming culture. It's not so much that she has a position that is different from so many people, it's that her position is pretty much a non-issue and the extent to which she takes it, and before such a large audience, has a chance of doing actual damage to gaming
as a whole.

The typical "defense" of Anita is that "nobody wants to take your games away from you" when really, that is kind of what she's all about. Her basic objective is to "change" the gaming industry based on the projection that games are in some way sexist for how they portray female characters, and the idea that the elements she points out should be removed entirely.

Someone like Anita for example asserts that the physical perfection of female characters is some how "sexist" and reducing them to mere eye candy. That's hardly the case especially when you consider heroic fantasy as a whole and the characters created by and for women. Basically gaming represents both sides more or less equally, where the guys are all buffed with crazy amounts of muscle definition, and the girls tend to also be heavily toned and at least nice looking. It's sort of like putting Mr. and Mrs. Olympia up on a pedestal next to each other when you get down to it, except someone is saying it's sexist in Mrs. Olympia's case because there is a platform for that.

She also tends to rant and rave about damsels in distress, and then when people point out how many strong female characters there are besides that, especially now, she rants and raves about other tropes and how all of them are sexist to, and really she pretty much seems oriented on trying to maintain a feminist platform to get attention and rile people more than she's actually championing any real, constructive, causes, she just plays the game of doing so in order to garner sympathy rather well.


2. I'll be blunt, I'm not sure if the gaming industry can be saved, which is why I am one of those who has been suspecting that there will be another crash. We're at a point right now where "real gamers" really don't represent enough of a financial stake compared to casuals that we can influence all that much. By costing the gaming industry money, all we do is cause it to do is consider re-investing more towards casual games. Indeed we already see industry announcements about this with a lot of companies saying they want to move away from AAA game development entirely to focus on the new frontier of "app space" and micro-transaction fueled cash grabs. They pretty much want to sheer the sheeple as long and hard as they can.

This pretty much means that things are likely to get worse before they get better as the people at the top don't have any sense of shame OR loyalty to the customer base that got them where they are. Really, if the industry crashes the publishers at the top are likely to float to the ground safely with their golden parachutes and leave the flaming wreckage of countless development houses and out of work employees with unreasonable employment standards behind them like when other businesses have gone down before them. The crash here being caused if the "sheeple" eventually move on to something else, or wake up and realize how badly they have been being exploited.

Increasing neglect and they very fact that these companies can go off about "entitlement" while whining about the AAA game market and it's costs, makes me think that really we don't have that much power in this relationship, otherwise they would be more careful already. This means that short of say mass violence, where a bunch of angry gamers put on masks and start raiding publishers and development house, nailing EA executives to giant video game symbols and lighting them on fire in the parking lot, while gunning down police en-masse in order to show we can't be stopped... really there is no way to regain power in this relationship, and at the end of the day even hardcore gamers realize it's just games, it's not worth using terror tactics to try and maintain, it's better to let a crash happen, and hope that the next round of game producers learn the lessons of the past this time, or at least we get a couple of decent decades before they go flying off the handle again.... and really I just can't see a bunch of gamers in executioner hoods or guy fawkes masks storming a corporate HQs like Frankenstein's castle in an old monster movie. I'd actually be surprised to see a hardcore gamer that actually has a decent pitchfork, and really without a few of those to set the scene it just doesn't work, amirite? :)

Or in short, I keep trying, but at the end of the day when I look at things rationally I think we're doomed. It's sort of like my thoughts on "Occupy Wall Street" where people rallied without the violence, that means nothing (except an eyesore) to people who can just fly over the crowds in their private helicopters. Right now the industry ultimately holds so many cards, that they can kind of ignore us, which is half the problem. Your typical publisher's attitude is akin to "I'm sorry, I can't hear what your saying over the sounds of all these counting machines sorting my money..."
 

Karadalis

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erttheking said:
Karadalis said:
Right.. Anita is the only one whos allowed to post her opinions as fact and shut down any discussion by simply not allowing it and never ever answering her critics who bring up valid points...

Once again the Jesus Anita syndrome at work. Shes allowed to do what other people are being told off for on jimquisition as if she was an untouchable defender of justice when in truth she causes more damage for her cause then she does good.
The problem with the whole mess is that people can't just disagree with her. I disagree with her on a lot of points. But people, this website included, can't just disagree with her and stop there. They have to attack everything about her, the fact that she's wearing make up, the fact that years ago she said something that means we don't have to take anything she says seriously. Jim doesn't think that Anita is Jesus, I don't think that she's Jesus, but people are reacting to her so violently and viciously that people feel obligated to call out the abuse when they see it. Go ahead and disagree with her points, just argue with a logical and level head and attack her points, not her.
The make up thing IS a valid point of criticism thought since she made an entire video about how these "gender identifier" are bad hmmkay? She derides these things while wearing them herselfe... pot meet cattle much?

And here it is again... the theory that somehow the legions of people who rightfully critize Anita and the points she brings up as attacking her personally.

Look we dont have to argue that 4chan is the Mos isley of the internet. However she shuts down not only those but ALL critics valid or not. She does not allow any other opinion to be heard but her own and never engages her critics in conversation, mostly due to the fact that she would be unable to defend her own position if seriously questioned.

She never adressed the video where she says shes not a gamer, nor has she ever adressed the stolen footage issues or that she never actually played the games she claims are being sexist.

All that and she is still held up by people like Jim as anything else but a dubios person who through a genius marketing blitz made a buttload of cash and got herselfe into a position where she could actually do harm and allready has done to gaming. (Reinforcing the stereotype of the mysoginistic male white gamer on national TV is just as damaging as jack thompson ranting about violent video games, despite claims otherwise people do listen to these people)

See it would be different if Jim ever took a different stance then "Shes fighting the good fight and there is nothing wrong with her arguments"

Just because she claims shes in it for female rights instead for her own bank account

Also where are those vicious and violent reactions? The majority of critisim pointed towards her outside of the dark corners of the web are level headed and not pointed at her personality.

Take The escapists "no right answer" video about this topic... they didnt attack her personaly in any way or forms yet there where countless comments about how the guys from no right answer where mysoginistic. What.. the... fuck?

And jim does support the "jesus anita" trope.. since he never ever said something not positive about her in his jimquisition. Thought he never gets tired about harping on how we all should stop "attacking" anita when in truth he seems to mean that we should stop critizising her opinions and take them as fact... the very thing he critizeses in this very video about people wanting to enforce their opinion on others. Weird isnt it?
 

Lightknight

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Imp Emissary said:
http://www.feministfrequency.com/2013/03/damsel-in-distress-part-1/

Transcript is under the video. =w= b [sub](<-Thumbs up face)[/sub]
The damsel in distress trope would be morally wrong if the female was in distress due to some percieved flaw with the gender itself. Anita's argument is often broader than that. Some girls are dumb and do make mistakes, just like males do. So depicting a woman who is simply dumb magically turns into an evil trope even those said women really do exist and even though the game doesn't necessarily make the claim that women are typically that way. Real women are weaker than men on average by a significant margin (testosterone is a hell of a thing where strength is concerned, it's like one gender is doing steroids), so that's why the damsel in distress is such a common theme. What I think the takeaway from damsel in distress games is that its our duty, if we have the strength, to aid people who the strong take advantage of. Games don't train people to make women into damsels. It trains people to be the good guys. And I don't mean "rescuing" a girl from work or some silly ever-day thing. I mean coming to aid of a girl who is being beaten or raped. Same should be true for any weaker party being taken advantage of by the strong merely because they are weaker.

It's interesting that in today's society female characters have to be perfect intellectually and emotionally while also being competent physically. In some ways, feminism is just another side of a coin that portrays women perfectly. One side being perfect aesthetically, the other side being perfect internally. Both overstepping on reality.

If I'm tired of Anita, it's moreso the way she runs with things by holding onto a faulty premise without sticking around long enough to qualify the givens. She has every right to voice her opinions but thankfully we also have a right to be tired of it.
 

Thanatos2k

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My question is this: Can anyone show any proof that gamers are more entitled than ANY other consumer demographic?

Really. What makes gamers more entitled than movie goers, or book readers, or sports watchers? Has anyone worked at a fast food restaurant? Are you really going to suggest gamers are more entitled than the customers you dealt with there? Anyone ever heard anyone complain about the price of gas? What entitlement.

Fact is, everyone everywhere acts "entitled." And since that's the reality of the world, the question is "Is that a bad thing?" When paying money for something, does that not entitle you to be able to complain about it?

One problem in this episode: Just because people "attacked" games critics for liking Mass Effect 3 doesn't mean that they expected them to change their scores. If you truly thought it was good, I can think AND say you're an idiot without being "entitled." If you think your opinions can't be attacked then I think that's where the actual entitlement is.

See, you can't call a game like Dungeon Keeper mobile poison to the industry and then turn around and say that calling someone who says they like Dungeon Keeper mobile and pays money for it a poison to the industry is wrong. That's just wishy washy weak. After all, Dungeon Keeper mobile is only a poison BECAUSE of the people who support it and ensure more games like it come out. Quit being afraid to call people what they are.
 

IamLEAM1983

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Aug 22, 2011
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The irony of all this is that such a simple point (people have opinions and such opinions shouldn't be allowed to devolve into ad hominem tactics) is being debated in this thread by people who seemingly can't agree as to what Anita Sarkeesian represents for the gaming culture.

Once again, I'd just like to say that while I don't agree with all of her conclusions, I have to admit that she does underline the rather extreme use the industry has for tropes and "Fill-in-the-blanks" character archetypes. I like to imagine the day in which a Brand New Game, with an utterly untested genre and ground-breaking characterization efforts, will surface. If that ever happens, we'll have transcended Sarkeesian's worries about the noxious effects of certain character archetypes.

Do I see that happening, though? Not really. It's in human nature to want easily digestible pieces of entertainment, and nothing is more easily digestible than the same goddamn Aesop about Good trimumphing over Evil or the Damsel in Distress being rescued. These notions pass the test in nearly all of the world's cultures, as demeaning as they might be, and for better or for worse, games are marketed goods that need to sell.

The crux of it is that Jim is right. Having an opinion is one thing, and I enjoy articulating mine or those of others in pleasant company. Attacking someone else because their opinion differs from yours, though, is the lowest of all things you could claim to do from an intellectual point of view. No amount of "empirical" evidence validates the idea of demeaning someone else - but it's hard as Hell to distinguish between what FEELS right and what IS right.
 

Erttheking

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Karadalis said:
erttheking said:
Karadalis said:
Right.. Anita is the only one whos allowed to post her opinions as fact and shut down any discussion by simply not allowing it and never ever answering her critics who bring up valid points...

Once again the Jesus Anita syndrome at work. Shes allowed to do what other people are being told off for on jimquisition as if she was an untouchable defender of justice when in truth she causes more damage for her cause then she does good.
The problem with the whole mess is that people can't just disagree with her. I disagree with her on a lot of points. But people, this website included, can't just disagree with her and stop there. They have to attack everything about her, the fact that she's wearing make up, the fact that years ago she said something that means we don't have to take anything she says seriously. Jim doesn't think that Anita is Jesus, I don't think that she's Jesus, but people are reacting to her so violently and viciously that people feel obligated to call out the abuse when they see it. Go ahead and disagree with her points, just argue with a logical and level head and attack her points, not her.
The make up thing IS a valid point of criticism thought since she made an entire video about how these "gender identifier" are bad hmmkay? She derides these things while wearing them herselfe... pot meet cattle much?

And here it is again... the theory that somehow the legions of people who rightfully critize Anita and the points she brings up as attacking her personally.

Look we dont have to argue that 4chan is the Mos isley of the internet. However she shuts down not only those but ALL critics valid or not. She does not allow any other opinion to be heard but her own and never engages her critics in conversation, mostly due to the fact that she would be unable to defend her own position if seriously questioned.

She never adressed the video where she says shes not a gamer, nor has she ever adressed the stolen footage issues or that she never actually played the games she claims are being sexist.

All that and she is still held up by people like Jim as anything else but a dubios person who through a genius marketing blitz made a buttload of cash and got herselfe into a position where she could actually do harm and allready has done to gaming. (Reinforcing the stereotype of the mysoginistic male white gamer on national TV is just as damaging as jack thompson ranting about violent video games, despite claims otherwise people do listen to these people)

See it would be different if Jim ever took a different stance then "Shes fighting the good fight and there is nothing wrong with her arguments"

Just because she claims shes in it for female rights instead for her own bank account

Also where are those vicious and violent reactions? The majority of critisim pointed towards her outside of the dark corners of the web are level headed and not pointed at her personality.

Take The escapists "no right answer" video about this topic... they didnt attack her personaly in any way or forms yet there where countless comments about how the guys from no right answer where mysoginistic. What.. the... fuck?
No. There's a difference. She chose to put on make up, the characters in video games had it slapped on them because "girls wear bows right"? Also, that would only make sense if the make up was only there to establish that she's a woman. It's the difference between a woman having a low cut top in a video game just to show off and a woman with a low cut top going off to a night club IRL to have a good time. A choice was made and it wasn't just to pander to the LCD

Did I say that? Ok, I may not have been clear on that, there are plenty of people who criticize her rationally and fairly. The screamers about how she isn't a real gamer drown them out. And I'm sorry, while those people are the ones that are the loudest, this woman is still going to be seen as someone who people are trying to shut up. That's just the way it's going to work.

Look, what she's doing on Youtube is kinda questionable but...youtube is not exactly well known for being a place of intellectual conversation. It's more of a place for rape threats.

She never addressed the video where she wasn't a gamer? True, but then again Barrack Obama never showed his birth certificate to Donald Trump. When people are being assholes, I don't see why you should have to prove anything. Granted the stolen footage thing is a bit of a no-no. But never played them? Citation needed.

Jim is not holding her up, he himself said that her videos were rather "meh". What he's doing is getting on the people who are attacking her because of how disgusting they're being about it, and so am I. And don't bring up the money thing again, she only asked for 6,000 dollars, what was she supposed to do when people gave her 300,000? Kickstarter doesn't let her give it back. Maybe the stereotype about the misogynistic white gamer will stop when so many white gamers stop being misogynistic. I'm sorry, she isn't the one who typed in rape threats, I don't see how it's her fault there are so many man children on the internet who can't handle their favorite thing being criticized. Maybe it's a sign that a lot of gamers need to grow up.

He. Did. Not. Say. That.

You kidding? There are people on this very website who still insist that she isn't a real gamer that say "I'd like actual facts in her next video" and just about every last youtube comment section about people railing against her is filled to the brink with hate. Here are a few from the "Anita Sarkessian Is Not a Real Gamer" video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcPIu3sDkEw

Facts are mysoginist&#65279;

Haha stupid idiot. U hate then u love.. Ur stupid Anita.&#65279;

What kind of man let this Anita chick out of the laundry room?&#65279;

I donno, but they were probably trying to get her to the kitchen.&#65279;

What a stupid, evil witch. &#65279;

I hate her.....I really hate her

Video games do not really promote hatred for women.
Anita Sarkeesian does. After watching her spiel, I want to beat her face in with a lead pipe.&#65279;

From this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6gLmcS3-NI

She is a dumb hypocrite lesbian whore. fuck her&#65279;

God she has big fucking beaver teeth&#65279;

Sarkeesian = Misandrist&#65279;

Sarkeesian=morally wrong&#65279;

anita is a terrorist to america&#65279;

Gods she's such a ****. Bayonetta is meant to be sexual and the marketing for it was clever.&#65279; (I agree, but come on!)

I'm glad I no longer date. too many feminist to deal with.

Shut up you fucking ***** and go make me a sandwich.&#65279;

The hate and backlash against her is very real, most of thee comments are under 3 months old

Well, what do you want me to say? People on both sides of the arguments can be douchebags. Doesn't excuse what's happening to her. I personally loved that video they did