...I'm suddenly remided of Shamus's videos...where he goes...crazy for the purpose of entertainment and laughter.
Regardless.
LOBSTERCLAWS!
~
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LOBSTERCLAWS!
Regardless.
LOBSTERCLAWS!
~...
LOBSTERCLAWS!
Jimquisition: Gamer Guys
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
- Start date
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Fake gamers (which are not just girls, that's just the easy target) really have nothing to do with gaming itself really. It only affects the gamers themselves. They don't play games with anything like the kind of veracity that would incite the industry Jim loves to lambast to cater to their tastes (whatever the heck those are).
It's more the sense of camaraderie, of comradeship with gamers they seek. Nowadays those groups are seen not as the ostracized social leftovers, but a strong social demo in and of itself. We're catered to in other industries with some of the choicest and well-assembled ways by gamers in other industries, because people whose hobby is partaking of media know how to shape a product to appeal to the senses. A lot of people want that kind of love, but they don't understand how to get it.
The problem is that this kin of attention was never addressed to people who get with it for it's own sake. You can't be part of the gamer crowd just by playing games and buying the t-shirts; Contrary to a lot of arguments, supporting the industry is not what it's about. There were gamers before games were an industrial force, and just buying the NES Pad belt buckle and wearing proudly does not mean that it's a symbol that represents you any more than doing so with sergeant stripes does.
Playing games doesn't qualify you either, not anymore. It's a new era with a class of games targeted for the everyman, and everyman that plays them is not the gamer the belt buckle was meant for.
You have to adjust your attitude. You have to get into the details of the game instead of 'god, just enjoy it'-ing. You gotta try games that might suck, or have been said to suck, or are not similar to the games you usually play. You have to know something about aspects in the games you do play that isn't presented in the games you do play. Notice none of this requires arbitrary obscure knowledge, just a little more effort than buying a bastaging mario cap. I have no problem with people who want to be gamers now that it's popular, but you do have to earn your stripes.
(the people who make bastaging mario caps have no problem with taking 'fake' gamers' money either, but don't think for a second they'd call you the real deal just based on that.)
It's more the sense of camaraderie, of comradeship with gamers they seek. Nowadays those groups are seen not as the ostracized social leftovers, but a strong social demo in and of itself. We're catered to in other industries with some of the choicest and well-assembled ways by gamers in other industries, because people whose hobby is partaking of media know how to shape a product to appeal to the senses. A lot of people want that kind of love, but they don't understand how to get it.
The problem is that this kin of attention was never addressed to people who get with it for it's own sake. You can't be part of the gamer crowd just by playing games and buying the t-shirts; Contrary to a lot of arguments, supporting the industry is not what it's about. There were gamers before games were an industrial force, and just buying the NES Pad belt buckle and wearing proudly does not mean that it's a symbol that represents you any more than doing so with sergeant stripes does.
Playing games doesn't qualify you either, not anymore. It's a new era with a class of games targeted for the everyman, and everyman that plays them is not the gamer the belt buckle was meant for.
You have to adjust your attitude. You have to get into the details of the game instead of 'god, just enjoy it'-ing. You gotta try games that might suck, or have been said to suck, or are not similar to the games you usually play. You have to know something about aspects in the games you do play that isn't presented in the games you do play. Notice none of this requires arbitrary obscure knowledge, just a little more effort than buying a bastaging mario cap. I have no problem with people who want to be gamers now that it's popular, but you do have to earn your stripes.
(the people who make bastaging mario caps have no problem with taking 'fake' gamers' money either, but don't think for a second they'd call you the real deal just based on that.)
I probably could. Then again I'm tiny as fuck. Great when you don't want to be notice also all the spaces you could fit in. It is wonderful especially when you want to frighten anyone. Anyway all this talk about sex is boring.Monxeroth said:Even i wouldnt fit in there...WaitWHAT said:"Guys leading me on with their muscular buns and slick calf muscles."
"using their supple, smooth bodies and elegant nipples to sell themselves on sex appeal"
Jim....it's time for you to come out of there.
(<3)
OT: Well, I didn't think that this was such a problem. I'd've thought that everyone could get on nicely, liking the things they like and peacefully letting others do the same. But if Jim's having to do a video on it, I may well have been wrong.
Excellent video Jim! As always, I thank the gods for you. ^^Jimothy Sterling said:
Aside from that, I just wanted to say that I got a real kick out of seeing several things I've said in the past visualized in this episode. This episode is particularly awesome. Well done.
So apparently Jim doesn't know about Female Hypoagency cause he doesn't read too much.
Lets GirlWritesWhat handle this, cause i will assume that no one will hear me cause i am supposedly a "male gamer in its basement" and therefore biased for no apparent buttfucking reason, so i will let her explain for you kiddies:
Lets GirlWritesWhat handle this, cause i will assume that no one will hear me cause i am supposedly a "male gamer in its basement" and therefore biased for no apparent buttfucking reason, so i will let her explain for you kiddies:
That little clip at the end of the rant with the prawn on a white background and piano music was hilarious.
One of her less wooden presentations, IMO. Still pretty stiff, though. It's hard to sit through her videos most times, and I commend people that do regularly.JellySlimerMan said:
The vid barely touches on videogames, and videogame culture which this thread is about.
The largest point seems to be that women want to be included for a safety/control factor, and it may be true for some women, but lets not pretend all of them are like that. I can't deny it happens just because that's the way it is because that's the way -humans- are wired.
We all want inclusion when all is said and done. When there's a group having fun, and we're not having as much fun, we want in. Guys, and gals will both play the poser to try and get in.
That isn't to say all of them are going to be posers. They could be genuinely interested rookies, or knowledgeable people who have flown under the radar.
To be included, representation is going to be appreciated, and clammored for if it's felt lacking.
The thread is about females taking over gaming via abusing the fact they are females and can get away with everything they do thanks to Double Standards at work (well, Female Hypoagency technically). And we can't say anything wrong about them cause, you know, saying that she has her hair on fire would be sexist, no matter how true that might be. Shining examples of this?:Rebel_Raven said:
I remember MovieBob (back when he was still sane) mentioning that gaming needs to clean its image, due to a bunch of assholes making us look bad.
GAME OVERTHINKER V33: Building a Better Gamer
But now the assholes of yesterday are gone, replaced by one similar in every single way (saying insults, whining about everyone but himself is to blame for the failure of the campaign, using racial/gender slurs, so on and so forth. We have seen it before) except....they are females now. And we can't do the same we did before to males this time cause......they are females? what is the difference here? an asshole is an asshole no matter what gender you are....except not for Jim and everyone else.
At the same time, the thread is about the people trying to prevent women from getting any sort of foothold.JellySlimerMan said:The thread is about females taking over gaming via abusing the fact they are females and can get away with everything they do thanks to Double Standards at work (well, Female Hypoagency technically). And we can't say anything wrong about them cause, you know, saying that she has her hair on fire would be sexist, no matter how true that might be. Shining examples of this?:Rebel_Raven said:
I remember MovieBob (back when he was still sane) mentioning that gaming needs to clean its image, due to a bunch of assholes making us look bad.
GAME OVERTHINKER V33: Building a Better Gamer
But now the assholes of yesterday are gone, replaced by one similar in every single way (saying insults, whining about everyone but himself is to blame for the failure of the campaign, using racial/gender slurs, so on and so forth. We have seen it before) except....they are females now. And we can't do the same we did before to males this time cause......they are females? what is the difference here? an asshole is an asshole no matter what gender you are....except not for Jim and everyone else.
I feel like the satire in Jim's Vid is aimed to help guys understand what gets lobbed at women time and time again deservedly or not.
I think I need to put forth a disclaimer before I go on. I'm not accusing you of anything, nor am I accusing you of accusing me of anything. There's no implications either way, here.
This isn't a binary battle. There is no black, and white. There's a rainbow of people, opinions, and personalities involved. You shouldn't condemn a person to a lable just because they happen to agree with a movement you're not fond of.
If a woman speaks up about wanting more, and better (Not better than males, better than the status quo of women) representation, and the first thought you get is "Damnit, another one of -her- followers?!" or "Another feminist?!" then, well, kinda try to stop that train of thought? It seems like I run into this pretty commonly. It's a bit of a headache, especially when some people rant on, and on about it when their point is made clear long ago.
I definitely don't blame all men because some men disagree with me. I don't think a guy that's disagreeing with me is one of those MRA people I hear about. Frankly I don't care what they're representing, it's how they present it to me.
I guess I don't clearly see the whole "Oh my god, women are trying to take over games, and will lilely DESTROY US ALL!!!!" because I'm a woman who's not trying to take over, rather I just want more, good female protagonists, and maybe see things get shaken up a little to help shatter conventional wisdoms.
These things that don't necessarily require women being in charge of anything (Though I do say that input from several women for varied opinions couldn't hurt!), rather requiring people being more accepting that there's people who want more female representation in games, and them stop trying to prevent the creation of female protagonists.
Maybe sorta get back the creativity the game industry used to have which sorta got sapped away in some of the by the numbers game creation methods.
That doesn't mean I -want- those women that are trying to put every character in the game in a tuxedo, or pants suits, or ball gowns, or what have you to win. Nor the sort trying to abolish women being in violent situations as the violent, or the victim to win.
I likes me some Mai Shiranui. A violent, compeditive woman who's not as flat as she might seem in writing, in a dangerous scenario wearing, well, do I gotta gotta describe that?
I'm not saying there's no room for a woman like King from the same series as Mai Shiranui, either. King wears a tux in a bartender motif.
I'm a fan of diversity.
At the same time, I'm assuredly not going to throw in the towel, and shut up about wanting better written (compared to some other female protagonists) female protagonists, and more female protagonists than what we get.
I doubt you're saying I am, or intend to imply any of what I said above, I state it for clarity's sake. People often confuse me for a raging feminist.
And, yes, there's assholes on both sides. There's little that can be done about that.
What can be done? Police the assholes in a civil manner, male and female alike. Treat them with civility, kill them with kindness, and so forth. I doubt you're going to come off as a troll if you argue against their point in a kind, intelligent manner, and don't fall into their traps. Easier said than done, I know.
If they call you sexist, racist, bigoted in general, etc. when you've displayed nothing of the sort other than disagreeing with their points in a civil manner, then kindly point out that you're not arguing with them with any less respect than you would someone else. They shouldn't be able to cite anything you've said. If they do, explain, and shut them down.
Of course that's not a free ticket to be what you're fighting, an asshole, just because you're an ass to both genders, especially when you stoop to slurs, and insults. Level heads shall prevail, and all that.
Maybe, just maybe, if you see an asshole on your side of the argument, put the kabosh on them, and tell them to butt out if they're just spewing absurd hate. Easier said than done, I understand, but all they're doing is making the opposition less receptive, and more likely to generate their own assholes to counter, and add those to those that already exist. It can be difficult when you see they're obviously on your side, but are they really helping?
Aknowledge that there's asses on both sides of the argument.
I've no problems saying that both Jim, and Anita aren't the best representatives for trying to get women better representation in videogames. The problem is, who else is there? I'd love to know.
When all is said and done, you -can- disagree with, or call out anyone. The problem arises when you disagree with a person using slurs, threats, and so forth. When people put forth the notion you can't disagree unless you're sexist, bigoted, or something like that, perhaps they're basing it more off the trolls, and uncivilized people... Oh who am I kidding?! There's people who'll stoop to anything to defend their side.
The point is, you can disagree with them, and call them out, and doing so in a level headed manner will work wonders.
Lastly, we all have bad days. Being bombarded by hatred can make people angry. Judging a person when they say something once, is not the greatest idea. They may well be influenced by the BS they've been buried under. It's a matter of how consistent they are in being a bad person, IMO.
Now keep in mind I'm not accusing you of anything. I don't know you, and I think I've really read all of 2 of your posts lately, and you seem pretty level headed.
I doubt I'm following my own advice as well as I'd like, or prescribe. I've said it's often easier said than done in numerous suggestions of mine.
Hell, maybe I am one of the assholes? I don't know, but I know people have tried to talk to be about how passionate I can get on the matter. Still, like your second video states, we can strive to be better.
I doubt that any of what I said is news here, but I feel better having said it.
Shadow hearts transformation? Hah! It's Shadow hearts FUSIONS, you're obviously one of those gamer guys that pretends to be a girl so he can fit in, begone with you!Therumancer said:
OT: Fides, maybe Libertia, but Fides's attack up is too damn sexy. I needa get Shadow hearts 3...
Let me go to Wikipedia for this, because apparently i ended up in another planet. In the meantime, watch the footage of this video in this timeframe 8:11 to 10:49.Rebel_Raven said:
And yes, i do know that the one making the video is also an asshole but i couldn't find the footage he was using, so i will use his video instead.
Oh here is it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asshole
The word is mainly used as a vulgarity, generally to describe people who are viewed as stupid, incompetent, unpleasant, or detestable.[6]
Say, does that word describes the people presented in that video? because i am pretty sure it DOES. Does that people just happen to be a female version of what we already have before? as in, assholes gun-ho male Bro-dudes that come from Brotopia, whining and bitching when no one pays attention to them and their Bro-tastic way of life, except with tits? they do, huh? how curious.
Ok, with that established, what is so fucking hard to understand? we have an asshole (that might be a man/woman/Cthulhu/a cat is fine too/God/Transexual/black/whatever) fucking around with a larger group of civilized people that just want to have fun (that might be a bunch of men/women/Cthulhu/a cat is fine too/God/Transexual/black/mixed people). Its presence its not tolerated cause it ruins the fun of everyone, therefore we either calmly tell them to GTFO until they behave, or get the PERMABAN.
That is ALL it EVER was, but nooooooooooooooo. The journalist have to pretend that its sexism or whatever, instead of actually looking at the facts, just like they did with the Hepler "controversy". I can't blame them, since they depend on sensationalism to make money after all, no matter who gets destroyed in the process.
It was never about sexism, its about common fucking courtesy. If it was about females being into gaming the shit would have hit the fan back when Amy Hennings worked for Crystal Dynamic to work on Legacy of Kain. And i REMIND YOU, that those guys invented Lara Croft, the sex symbol of gaming back then. If there EVER was a problem with females being in a "male space" then it would have started a looooooooong time ago.
Because that is what the video of Jim was about, right? mocking the idea of girl gamers taking over, right? its kinda self defeating to make such a video when you reverse the roles because, guess what?, it shows that BOTH genders can be assholes.......which is what we ALREADY know and established already.
So what boundaries have been pushed with this? other than the boundaries of the obvious?
Ok..... what does that have to do with what i said? did i say that there were no assholes on my side? i say there are assholes, and whoever that asshole is, it must be told to GTFO.
No one can. Except maybe Morpheus if they ever make it in Real Life?:
And just because there isn't someone fighting for the representation of women or whoever, that doesn't mean you have to do a piss poor job at it. The situation is already confusing BETWEEN the same ranks of Feminism (see the Ripley Vs Clarice Starling debate of a "proper" female protagonist). I am, however, offended to be playing as a human being instead of a robot or something. I feel that my Misanthrope Supreme + Asexual + Nihilistic tendencies are not represented or appealed properly
The end of that video would have been infinitely more nerdy if jim used something more obscure like Psi-Ops instead of Killzone at the end using the exact same message just with a more less known title in which I say that watching that killzone footage I'm just aptly reminded of psi-ops even more and pretty much they took that idea from that game to theirs oh sure it's a nazi thing and so they didn't really but still the similarities are a bit uncanny to me
I did say there are assholes on both sides of things, including gender, didn't I? I'm not saying there aren't female gamer assholes out there. Gender shouldn't give leniency in the way people act in a venue not their own. If a person acts up, they should be reprimanded, yes.JellySlimerMan said:Let me go to Wikipedia for this, because apparently i ended up in another planet. In the meantime, watch the footage of this video in this timeframe 8:11 to 10:49.Rebel_Raven said:
And yes, i do know that the one making the video is also an asshole but i couldn't find the footage he was using, so i will use his video instead.
Oh here is it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asshole
The word is mainly used as a vulgarity, generally to describe people who are viewed as stupid, incompetent, unpleasant, or detestable.[6]
Say, does that word describes the people presented in that video? because i am pretty sure it DOES. Does that people just happen to be a female version of what we already have before? as in, assholes gun-ho male Bro-dudes that come from Brotopia, whining and bitching when no one pays attention to them and their Bro-tastic way of life, except with tits? they do, huh? how curious.
Ok, with that established, what is so fucking hard to understand? we have an asshole (that might be a man/woman/Cthulhu/a cat is fine too/God/Transexual/black/whatever) fucking around with a larger group of civilized people that just want to have fun (that might be a bunch of men/women/Cthulhu/a cat is fine too/God/Transexual/black/mixed people). Its presence its not tolerated cause it ruins the fun of everyone, therefore we either calmly tell them to GTFO until they behave, or get the PERMABAN.
That is ALL it EVER was, but nooooooooooooooo. The journalist have to pretend that its sexism or whatever, instead of actually looking at the facts, just like they did with the Hepler "controversy". I can't blame them, since they depend on sensationalism to make money after all, no matter who gets destroyed in the process.
It was never about sexism, its about common fucking courtesy. If it was about females being into gaming the shit would have hit the fan back when Amy Hennings worked for Crystal Dynamic to work on Legacy of Kain. And i REMIND YOU, that those guys invented Lara Croft, the sex symbol of gaming back then. If there EVER was a problem with females being in a "male space" then it would have started a looooooooong time ago.
Because that is what the video of Jim was about, right? mocking the idea of girl gamers taking over, right? its kinda self defeating to make such a video when you reverse the roles because, guess what?, it shows that BOTH genders can be assholes.......which is what we ALREADY know and established already.
So what boundaries have been pushed with this? other than the boundaries of the obvious?
Ok..... what does that have to do with what i said? did i say that there were no assholes on my side? i say there are assholes, and whoever that asshole is, it must be told to GTFO.
No one can. Except maybe Morpheus if they ever make it in Real Life?:
And just because there isn't someone fighting for the representation of women or whoever, that doesn't mean you have to do a piss poor job at it. The situation is already confusing BETWEEN the same ranks of Feminism (see the Ripley Vs Clarice Starling debate of a "proper" female protagonist). I am, however, offended to be playing as a human being instead of a robot or something. I feel that my Misanthrope Supreme + Asexual + Nihilistic tendencies are not represented or appealed properly
You're right. Sensationalism is what journalists live for. That's painfully obvious. It doesn't make it right, but it's not likely they're going to stop. Boring news doen't really get read/noticed. Problem with me is all that sensationalism is a large scale turn off.
Women playing games was an issue back then. It just didn't have the wide avaliability of the internet, and the disgruntled persons able to focus to make the issue known.
Seriously, why do you think girls playing games were almost unheard of way back then? It's not that they weren't gaming, it's that they had it a lot worse then they do now, and were keeping it on the down low.
Mind you I'm not saying it was a cakewalk for the guys either. They were definiutely treated worse back then, too.
Games eventually became more widely accepted, and female gamers felt like they would be more accepted, too. They came out in apparently large numbers. Having came out, they are still meeting resistance, but they aren't exactly being pushed into the darkness, either.
Further, back then, online gameplay wasn't as widespread, or as accessable. It was a lot easier to fly under the radar as a girl gamer.
Speaking of Lara Croft, Tomb Raider games came out pretty steadily back then. There were more than a few female protagonists in the era getting decent showings in her time, in fact. People that liked playing as women didn't get the same sense of depravation as we're getting now.
That feeling of depravation was created largely by the "conventional wisdom" that female protagonists make a game fail, the overall lack of female protagonists in mainstream gaming, and the news that female protagonists were being taken out of lead roles in favor of more guys, among other bits of news that broke. Naughty Dog having to request female focus testers, and fight for Ellie to stay on the front of the box, Levine making a dudebro cover for Bioshock Infinite, and so forth.
Yes, I'm fully aware Lara Croft was created by guys. She was intended to be well written, and well defined, and atteractive. Still, we all know what really got focused on. That didn't stop her from being a well adored, iconic character, though, obviously. Not just for her looks, either.
Hence me saying that women don't have to be in charge for well written female protagonists to be more common.
Yes, Jim didn't exactly tell us anything we didn't know in this vid. There's assholes on both sides, and he was looking to offer up a dose of what women go through towards guys, hence the parallel universe.
People have speculated this video also has something to do with the news that Nintendo would consider a game where Zelda is the hero of her own story if fans wanted it it.
You can imagine that the jerks came out to bash the idea, and the general hate towards one another. Jerks everywhere, on all sides, with reasonable people doggypaddleing to not be drowned out.
You missed my disclaimer, didn't you? Where it said I wasn't accusing you of anything?
The quote has everything to do with it in that it's the simple fact that there are assholes on both sides. Pardon me for stating the obvious.
And, yes, obviouly assholes need to be dealt with regardless of gender.
As far as I'm concerned, despite them doing a less than stellar job at it, I'd rather have Jim, and Anita fighting than no one as they're far far far more likely to get noticed than I am, and they spark debates, and I feel this subject needs to be talked about so long as it exists. I doubt we'd be better off without either of them.
You may not like their work, and that's fine.
The reason that there's confusion in the ranks of feminism about the proper female protagonist is simple. Feminists aren't a hive mind entity. Everyone has opinions, even among feminists. There are no solid rules, and guidelines to live by in feminism as far as I know, and none on representation in the media. Even if there were rules written in stone, it's obvious not everyone follows it, eh?
Except I'm not if it's core to what Zelda is instead of making her out to be a female Link in the first placeRebel_Raven said:
Yes, let's talk about a game that had the exact same rescue plot that she complained about because it's pretty clear you read the source material and got mad because Crystal bared her midriff.
Nonsensical argument is nonsensical.
Okay. So when the going gets tough, Zelda should get going. Awesome to know.
That's what the Sheikh are for, to protect the royal family while the people have a hero. We call that a sidequest. And maybe, since there's split timelines in Hyrule, there are other heroes but they failed too. Just a thought.
Or maybe they died in the attempt and you haven't read the books and just want to complain about something that isn't relevant to the story...
rolls eyes
Right, because she's not relevant to the plot at all, she didn't give Link any songs to sing, didn't rescue any princesses along the way, nor do anything like contacting the Sages to help Link out while evading Ganon for seven years. No plot relevance whatsoever. She's just a girl and that means she can't protect the world because she believes in Link to help save it. Great thinking there.
Ah, so all you care about is the gender of the characters and the overall mythos and the significance of the Triforces means nothing to you. Gotcha.
Or maybe the fact that their royalty makes them a larger target than some plucky hero who no one knows. Maybe, the fact that Ganon keeps underestimating Link over and over means Power won't ever overtake Wisdom and Courage. You know, one of those moral things we learn from stories like fairy tales?
When you only see the large threats to you, the small ones and their personal journeys don't mean all that much. That's like saying Wall Street cares about your local little league team. Unless they do something major to catch their notice, they aren't going to see them as a threat.
And that's great for you. But that has nothing to do with the topic of just a female Link who continues to have courage under fire and maybe has different items and spells that could make a game more intriguing. Having a female Zelda in games where you can't have a second game on the console still doesn't explain that Zelda's actions (which you've greatly ignored btw) have caused the defeat of Ganon over and over. No, she doesn't give the killing blow, but she ensures that Link has the tools to take him down, particularly with the sword she crafted.
But they exist.
Which is the point here. Gender doesn't matter for a hero. Katniss is every much a hero as Harry Potter save for the gender.
Like I said, there could be game differences, but that'd have to be worked out. You'd still be the same avatar, entering into the world of Hyrule, and partaking in an adventure while looking at how the people react to the story of the three Triforces.
Never said I didn't. I just said that if you make a game about Zelda, a female Link would do just as much. You'd probably learn more just as much about Zelda as Link if you'd actually pay attention. From what I know, she's just as courageous and dedicated to the realm as Link is. And given that Nintendo has a history of silent protagonists, you'd really be hard felt to find a lot out about Zelda if you played as her compared to having a champion based on what the prophecies foretold about a hero coming to the fore.
I kinda wish for once that such information actually end up being uploaded to the Internet. We have access to the Epic of Gilgamesh (2000+ years old poem), and we can even have images of men being lynched to death because of mystreatment of women back in the 1900, but we can have the news of women being excluded in gaming Pre-2000.Rebel_Raven said:
Everyone is meeting resistance, not only women. Here is why:
And where does this conventional wisdom comes from? cause i am pretty sure that back then no one had a problem with women in games. Hell, Samus is loved more in the Western hemisphere than in her home country Japan, that is why they gave the rights to an American developer to make the Prime series (Retro).
What about MS.Pacman? she was invented in America. http://classicgames.about.com/od/arcadegames/p/Ms-Pac-Man-The-Unauthorized-History-Of-Arcades-First-Female-Hero.htm
How about Zelda portrayal on the godawful American cartoon? take a guess:
http://www.filibustercartoons.com/index.php/2013/03/10/a-rebuttal-to-anita-sarkeesians-tropes-vs-women-episode-1-damsels-in-distress/
I DO know that publishers do NOT want females on MODERN times. As evidenced by the "Remember Me" fiasco:
http://www.shacknews.com/article/78281/remember-me-rejected-by-publishers-due-to-female-protagonist
But WHERE do they get that info? what was the E.T from Atari 2600 with a female on it that sunk the whole industry to the point of NEVER AGAIN try with a female protagonist? was it Beyond Good And Evil? the game that they didn't fucking market to begin with, and therefore not the fault of the audience for not buying something they didn't know it existed?
I know what you are going to say: "They clearly use a test audience to measure their success, and they most likely say that they dont want to play as a female" And to that i ask: Where in the fuck do they get these people? i mean, are they the same people that said this:
http://www.siliconera.com/2011/03/28/nanashi-no-game-was-considered-for-north-america-focus-groups-killed-it/
"The opinion was you couldn?t shoot anything."
Savor it. Embrace it. And apply directly to the forehead, if possible.
No shooting in a horror game? NO FUCKING SHIT.
Where do they GET these guys?
1:07
Are they hobos from the street? or are those COD lovers? if the later then i want to ask one simple question to the publishers: What reaction did they expect from that focus group? a COD gamer is only going to play COD and nothing else. They dont want to be challenged, they don't like to think, they just want to shoot the assholes that called them a "meany" on the last multiplayer match from the previous COD. That game is the only thing they know, and the publishers expect input from those fuckers? as opposed to get input from people from different areas and tastes in gaming to see if they can appeal to those they have to yet reach?
This is pure incompetence no matter how you slice it. Which is par of the course for the industry after all. Just look at Microsoft.
I didn't know that they were going to make a Zelda Zelda game.
As long they dont make another Zelda CDI game by sending it to the Russians that made the drawings there shoudn't be any problem. People got a VERY strong impression for a game with Zelda.
And if they are going to make a Zelda Zelda game, then she is going to start as a commoner rather than a princess or queen. Remember that the reason she is kidnapped is because she is powerful enough to fuck up the plans of the whoever is trying to take over the world, kinda like this trope if you want to win at all:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShootTheMedicFirst
Its common warfare tactic. Take out the leader or the enemy best weapon to ensure victory. Even in the old NES games like Super Mario Bros this is true. The Koopa used black magic to turn the Mushroom Kingdom and its people into stone, and guess who the fuck can cure that shit? The Princess Toadstool....who gets kidnapped to ensure she doesn't undo their plans. www.mariomayhem.com/downloads/mario_instruction_booklets/Super_Mario_Bros-NES.pdf
If Zelda is NOT going to get kidnapped, then that means she has ZERO powers both in political and magical sense, to the point the enemy wouldn't even register her presence as a menace to begin with. She is going to start from nothing and go Metroidvania on the world of Hyrule.
Is that the source of controversy? that you can get to play Sim City with you playing as the Princess and manage the Kingdom? or was that they are just going to be lazy, make a Female Mute Link, and call it Zelda?
Implying that NO ONE was talking about sexuality and gender in games before? this person did on Metroid Other M and for all its efforts no one cared:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/lb_i.php?lb_id=13373815860B43920100&i_id=13384263550I62094100&p=17
So no one talks about it until there is a controversy? that was made years AFTER the M:OM fiasco, its not like they needed the spark of the moment to do it, they need time to process the bullshit, like any research should.
And guess what? Anita and her lack of effort is going to make things worse for other females that want to work in the industry. When Anita's brand of feminism ends up not selling the copies the publishers want (she is working with EA now, and given THEIR sale expectations they had for Dead Space 3, i would say that Anita was bound to fail no matter what) the industry is going to make a laughing stock of her, and anyone trying to argue her points after that. Not to mention how some female developers will have a hard time being included in the industry because of the publishers fear of a fiasco like this happening again, so they will play it safe and not hire ANYONE that has similar mentality.
They will point out this incident and the lack of sales of Mirror's Edge 2 as: "SEE? THIS IS WHY WE DONT MAKE FEMALES PROTAGONIST FOR THESE GAMES. IF IT WAS SO IMPORTANT TO HAVE A FEMALE THEN WHY DIDN'T YOU BUY THE 5 BILLIONS OF COPIES WE DEMANDED?" because scapegoating is the way to go in the industry.
And even if she had a good research, guess what? you CAN'T change the industry. Not even Orson Welles did it for Hollywood nor can people on the gaming industry. You don't reason with the industry, you just DO.
Listen to the poor man, he knows what it means to waste your life for nothing. She may as well make her own games, with the sweat of her brow. Ayn Ryan would be so proud of her.
Is not JUST that she doesn't specify what brand of feminism (who was supposed to be about equality) actually WANTS this brand of inequality as presented on her thesis. Cause apparently having "self control" is not positive for females somehow:
Is just that she doesn't make sense even in her terms:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/FeministFrequency
And, that even if Feminism ISN'T a hivemind, the mainstream audience doesn't care. If YOU criticize it in ANY shape or form, no matter which brand you are complaining about, you are either a misogynist or a gender traitor. I remind you that, after all, one CANT make even a sarcastic comment without being put on jail. So the logical step to it is to lynch everyone that complains on Feminism: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/125833-Petition-to-Free-Jailed-League-of-Legends-Player-Reaches-100-000-Sigs
God bless false dichotomies.
The culture you're talking about is not what the culture is, but rather what it was. Arguing that this problem exists because of something the culture isn't is inane. Surely you grasp that.Lightknight said:
And I asked you a question and you dodged it. If you had said it, I would not need to question you in the first place.
Further, you used the word "expect." Suddenly, I use your own terminology, and I'm accusing you of justification. This is an interesting logic loop, as you seem to be acknowledging your own terminology as justification, but are accusing me of falsely equating your words with justification.
However, I didn't say you were justifying it. I merely repeated what you said.
Do then then NOT believe the words you yourself said?
And still, if women should have an expectation of being treated as they are (which is actually what you said, whether you condone it or not), should gamer culture as a whole expect to be deliegitimised? It'd be nice if I got at least one answer out of you.
Not sure if false because of misinterpretation or false for the sake of convenient dodge.
Of course not, because that would require actually addressing something I said.
Raven I give you that Zlda is a supporting NPC. But she isn't the only girl in gaming we HAVE rpg female characters of messianic repuattion who wield that power on screen and even in player hands. We have Skullgirls, most rpgs (Japanese and Western), and etc. But that goes out the wall because apparently Zelda getting kidnapped is oppressing female gamers?
Zelda was made links PARTNER in Spirit Tracks, was hinted at having a parallel coming of age story in Skyward Sword. This happened with Groose and people love him. Its why male gamers feel the argument is specious. you got that already and you're still upset and moreover games aren't intended to do whatever for gender but convey their entertainment.
Now I'll admit, Tetra just hiding out was kinda bad... and then she shoots at ganon in the final battle as acknowledgement hey she's the princess and its her life. Zelda was practically shoehorned into Twilight Princess because, get this, SHE WASN'T THE FOCUS that was Midna (btw way to ignore the four other significant female characters not counting the Zora Queen there) in the title and please don't say *she* was shortchanged.
And that's just Zelda. There are games conceived of with female characters from the beginning or aimed at female players (the various bishi laden ones) that have diverse powers and grappling with dramatic situations. The mystery series from Nintendo on the DS... Eternal Darkness, Atelier series, Tales, Sands of Destruction, Pokemon, Persona, and others.
So then we get to the more specific issue. There aren't badass females, who don't sexual appeal to male gamers, in "hardcore" titles. The DOA girls, Bayonetta, Bullet Witch, Sheeva Almar, Jill Valentine, and etc.
See dig in its less a desperately superbad situation of "no girls" and more a "not girls in titles I like in the roles I want" and sorry THAT'S NOT OPPRESSION.
Now it is a lack of serving to the customer base and acknowledgement of them.
Yeah it wouldn't hurt for the not exactly strapped for cash Call of Duty series to fit in a lady into the macho tired war stories as they "go deeper" (especially when America is under attack by Russia). But it can also backfire (Other M, the gamer shorthand for sexism in videogames. I'll even concede it didn't do Samus right but was trying and the story isn't more "sexist" than throwing all these paternal issues in video games currently is.. seriously take a step back and Other M is practically a Bruce Willis movie in space)
Zelda was made links PARTNER in Spirit Tracks, was hinted at having a parallel coming of age story in Skyward Sword. This happened with Groose and people love him. Its why male gamers feel the argument is specious. you got that already and you're still upset and moreover games aren't intended to do whatever for gender but convey their entertainment.
Now I'll admit, Tetra just hiding out was kinda bad... and then she shoots at ganon in the final battle as acknowledgement hey she's the princess and its her life. Zelda was practically shoehorned into Twilight Princess because, get this, SHE WASN'T THE FOCUS that was Midna (btw way to ignore the four other significant female characters not counting the Zora Queen there) in the title and please don't say *she* was shortchanged.
And that's just Zelda. There are games conceived of with female characters from the beginning or aimed at female players (the various bishi laden ones) that have diverse powers and grappling with dramatic situations. The mystery series from Nintendo on the DS... Eternal Darkness, Atelier series, Tales, Sands of Destruction, Pokemon, Persona, and others.
So then we get to the more specific issue. There aren't badass females, who don't sexual appeal to male gamers, in "hardcore" titles. The DOA girls, Bayonetta, Bullet Witch, Sheeva Almar, Jill Valentine, and etc.
See dig in its less a desperately superbad situation of "no girls" and more a "not girls in titles I like in the roles I want" and sorry THAT'S NOT OPPRESSION.
Now it is a lack of serving to the customer base and acknowledgement of them.
Yeah it wouldn't hurt for the not exactly strapped for cash Call of Duty series to fit in a lady into the macho tired war stories as they "go deeper" (especially when America is under attack by Russia). But it can also backfire (Other M, the gamer shorthand for sexism in videogames. I'll even concede it didn't do Samus right but was trying and the story isn't more "sexist" than throwing all these paternal issues in video games currently is.. seriously take a step back and Other M is practically a Bruce Willis movie in space)
So how would -you- make a game centering around Zelda as a playable character?Gindil said:
I'm not limiting the idea to Zelda swapping positions with Link in the usual story, am I?
Ugh, after reading the rest of your post, I'm going to have to deal with you narrowmindedly chewing my head off. The rest is mostly you chewing my head off with a narrow mind tainted by misdirected hatred for Anita fgetting aimed at me.
I probably shouldn't even humor it since you don't respect my position at all, but I am since you'll oriolly get offended if I don't.
WRONG! Dinosaur Planet originally featured a brother-sister team where you could play as Krystal, or her brother Saber.
I'm MAD because she stopped being a character choice. You assume way too much.
I don't have a huge problem with sexuality in female characters. I don't mind Bayonetta, or Mai Shiranui. Things can go a bit overboard on the sexuality front, but in general, it doesn't.
I don't mind it when the character isn't a sexual bombshell either.
I'd appreciate it if you stopped painting me with the disdain you have for Anita, which, frankly, I don't care about.
Exactly the way I see "Oh, but she's a powerful NPC!!"
That NPC isn't a person I spend most of the game with.
No, when things get tough, she, or her kingdom needs to be prepared to be tough. Preferrably both.
"getting going" is basically what she's doing now. She's gone for most of the game, if not all of it.
It's apparent they weren't exactly all that well trained. Zelda gets captured each, and every time. They aren't exactly an army trying to rescue her either, are they?
The other heroes don't get played as, do they?
And forget "heroes" I mean an army of people angry that their beloved princess was taken away.
So the entire kingdom died, and zelda, link, and gannon are the last people on the planet? No? Then the people have pretty much given up if they're not trying to save Zelda.
And you're bringing sources outside the game to this? You do realize not everyone's going to be that invested, right?
And for all the power you boast, she's kidnapped. It's up to Link.
If you're not going to be civil, GTFO of my world. If you can't respect the person you've decided to argue with, then don't bother arguing with me.
I am NOT ANITA. Do not direct the dislike you have for her my way.
Both mean something to me.
Apparently both mean something to the fanbase if there's interest in seeing Zelda as a playable protagonist.
That doesn't change the fact that it annoys me that Zelda in all her wisdom doesn't know how to defend herself from being captured since she continually gets captured.
Huh, a lone guy steadily approaching unravelling your entire scheme, evidently the bearer of a chunk of the triforce is escaping Gannon's notice?
You didn't read the last paragraph before you replied to this, did you? I don't want just a female Link here. There's not a whole lot of point in a simple gender swap.
Of course Zelda didn't land the killing blow. A lot of people would hate it if they did all the work playing through the game only to have their thunder stolen by an NPC.
You might wanna clarify the topic here. I'm talking about Zelda being the protagonist of the story. You're talking about a female Link.
Those are not one in the same.
And?? Why's it only in those mediums, heck, that medium, that Zelda is playable?
It apparently -does- matter since people -do- want a female hero in LoZ. It does matter since people want to play as Zelda.
The second part of what you said is throwing me, though. "save for gender." Wanna elaborate on that?
It apparently does matter in the grand scheme of things as far as the game industry goes because female heroes tend to get shut down before the game gets fully developed, or the game gets changed after development since the producers don't think a female hero will sell.
Books generally are diffirent breeds from videogames. Videogames generally have you play as one person from start to finish, and are generally limited on point of view. There generally isn't room for more than one hero at a time. It's pretty much apples, and oranges.
Like I said, there could be game differences, but that'd have to be worked out. You'd still be the same avatar, entering into the world of Hyrule, and partaking in an adventure while looking at how the people react to the story of the three Triforces.[/quote]
I wish you read this, and the bit after this before you decided to chew my head off for most of the post. You seem to be accusing me of wanting to put Zelda in the exact same role as Link when that's not the end all, and be all of my point.
I'm certainly open to variations, here. By "hero" I don't mean the exact same role as Link, I mean the protagonist since protagonists usually are the hero.
You apparently assumed I did, though.
Like I said, actions speak louder than words, and being the playable character speaks louder than being an NPC. I might just learn a good bit playing as Zelda that I might not have otherwise since she'll be in another role, silent or not. If I do is the great mystery, isn't it? We aren't going to know until we see how Nintendo handles Zelda as a protagonist, are we?
The way you've been going on, you seem to have been basing my entire argument on the idea that Zelda will be placed in the exact same role as Link, when I certainly do not limit her potential to that.
Even if it was, I doubt most people would actively look it up. It's either common knowledge, or they don't care about adding it to the conversation. I dare say only a few people would care enough.JellySlimerMan said:
Everyone is meeting resistance, not only women. Here is why:
[/quote] I'm fully aware isn't not just women being given a hard time. I said as much, didn't I?
I wish I knew what the pivotal point where the conventional wisdom came to be was. I can only guess, myself. I do have a strong feeling it reaches back as far as Mirror's Edge.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/games-with-female-heroes-dont-sell-because-publishers-dont-support-them
I definitely agree that the gaming industry as it is is incompitent on so many levels. Developers are dieing off, producers are dieing off, people are getting laid off, people are taking pay cuts, the industry goes for quality of sales over quantity of sales, games are loosing their souls to market testers or being denied outright, and so on.
Hell, it might be that conventional wisdom that's playing a role in killing the industry. Modern games exclude female protagonists, so women, and the guys that like playing a women are getting ticked off, and not buying.
I know I'm less interested in games these days because of that conventional wisdom being put into practice.
I didn't know that they were going to make a Zelda Zelda game.
As long they dont make another Zelda CDI game by sending it to the Russians that made the drawings there shoudn't be any problem. People got a VERY strong impression for a game with Zelda.
And if they are going to make a Zelda Zelda game, then she is going to start as a commoner rather than a princess or queen. Remember that the reason she is kidnapped is because she is powerful enough to fuck up the plans of the whoever is trying to take over the world, kinda like this trope if you want to win at all:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShootTheMedicFirst
Its common warfare tactic. Take out the leader or the enemy best weapon to ensure victory. Even in the old NES games like Super Mario Bros this is true. The Koopa used black magic to turn the Mushroom Kingdom and its people into stone, and guess who the fuck can cure that shit? The Princess Toadstool....who gets kidnapped to ensure she doesn't undo their plans. www.mariomayhem.com/downloads/mario_instruction_booklets/Super_Mario_Bros-NES.pdf
If Zelda is NOT going to get kidnapped, then that means she has ZERO powers both in political and magical sense, to the point the enemy wouldn't even register her presence as a menace to begin with. She is going to start from nothing and go Metroidvania on the world of Hyrule.
Is that the source of controversy? that you can get to play Sim City with you playing as the Princess and manage the Kingdom? or was that they are just going to be lazy, make a Female Mute Link, and call it Zelda?[/quote]
I don't know the plans Nintendo has for Zelda being the protagonist in her own game, or even if they are going to make it. It's certainly been brought up enough in this thread as a reason, though. I can't read Jim's mind, so I'm willing to consider it as a possibility.
As far as the Zelda game, I'm open to the possibility that she is fighting against the people that have captured her, or is going to demonstrate the power to resist being captured in the first place, and has to fight to prevent further capture attempts.
But your ideas on the Zelda game are as good as mine.
Where's Korval now? If a person is going to champion the cause, they need to stick with it, or they're going to fade into obscurity, or the fact they tried certainly is.
You make solid points about the industry. I can easily see your predictions coming true.
They've used female protagonists as scapegoats before, and they'll do it again.
Its going to be bad for Mirror's Edge 2 now that people associate it with Anita. These people that coat everyone speaking up for female representation with their hatred for Anita are everywhere, and they're likely to not buy the game just because they hate Anita.
Then, as you stated, there's going to be expectations set way too high for the game's sales.
It's not going to be supported by the producer either, I wager. We won't see a single TV commercial, I bet.
Moreover, I bet it'll be xbone exclusive, which as we know is going to be a limited console in itself thanks to it's bad rep, the sales of it, and it's limited release.
I've little doubt the game's going to fail and by fail, I mean not live up to the astronomically stupid expectations of the company.
Indeed, a person can't change the industry all on their own. Especially an industry that doesn't want to change, even if the stubborness is out of stupidity. It's a sad fact.
It's going to take many hands to get the ball moving, and critics like Anita, and Jim to make people aware that people want change, and help rally the people.
That said, I don't believe it's a waste to try to create change. You might start a domino effect, and get support, and get those many hands to help you push against the status quo. If you leave a legacy of trying to change things, people that know of it may well remember it.
People have to try, or else nothing gets done.
The real trajedy is when these changes, some much needed, don't happen in the lifetime of the person trying to make the change, or they give up. They never get to see what they worked so hard for happen.
Passion is not a waste.
The only brand of feminism I can think of that Anita represents is her own, or possibly one created by the input of many feminists provided she's in touch with the community, and wants to represent as many feminists as possible.Is not JUST that she doesn't specify what brand of feminism (who was supposed to be about equality) actually WANTS this brand of inequality as presented on her thesis. Cause apparently having "self control" is not positive for females somehow:
Is just that she doesn't make sense even in her terms:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/FeministFrequency
And, that even if Feminism ISN'T a hivemind, the mainstream audience doesn't care. If YOU criticize it in ANY shape or form, no matter which brand you are complaining about, you are either a misogynist or a gender traitor. I remind you that, after all, one CANT make even a sarcastic comment without being put on jail. So the logical step to it is to lynch everyone that complains on Feminism: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/125833-Petition-to-Free-Jailed-League-of-Legends-Player-Reaches-100-000-Sigs
God bless false dichotomies.
Yeah, there's going to be those people who try to demonize you for disagreeing. It's the easy way out, but what are you going to do? Give up? Stoop to their level? Keep being civil? You could call them out on it?
Luckily the kid that got jailed is getting support by people that believe in justice. His case was pretty damn extreme.
Why are you bringing in Anita when I haven't, nor do I want to??Darmani said:
Why are you talking to me like I'm a feminist?
Let me explain something here. I'm not a feminist. I'm not a blind follower of Anita.
I'm a female gamer that wants more female protagonists in their own game, and I'd like them to be well written. Of course I'm going to support a game whre Zelda is the main protagonist, and the played character.
Games like Pokemon where you pick a gender don't cut it with me until the gender of the protagonist makes a real diffirence in the game.
I happen to be aware of things like:
http://www.giantbomb.com/sleeping-dogs/3030-29441/
http://www.gamecritics.com/brad-gallaway/brink-no-girls-allowed
http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/games-with-female-heroes-dont-sell-because-publishers-dont-support-them
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/123139-Devs-Had-to-Demand-Female-Focus-Testers-for-The-Last-of-Us
http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/remember-mes-surprising-connection-to-facebook-and-why-its-protagonist-had
http://popwatch.ew.com/2012/05/01/god-of-war-ascension-multiplayer/ or http://www.gameinformer.com/games/god_of_war_ascension/b/ps3/archive/2012/04/30/sony-unveils-god-of-war-ascensions-multiplayer.aspx
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7044-The-Creepy-Cull-of-Female-Protagonists
And that's the -short- list.
Which grinds my gears because female protagonists are getting shafted in so many ways. Modern gaming "conventional wisdom" does not want a strong female presense in games, or in how they're getting made. Women are usually relegated to support.
Some female protagonists aren't even seeing the light of day!
How many of the games have you listed have -only- women as the playable character? Compare that to the games where there's only male playable characters, or both genders. That's why I'm mad at the industry.
And it doesn't help that some of the games with female only playable characters are insulting.
... Other M isn't bad because it's a bruce willis movie in space. It's bad because it takes a lot of the power away from one of the most powerful iconic women in gaming on many levels, and for some strange reason "the baby" has become something of a meme based off it. I wonder why?
Also try this:http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/lb_i.php?lb_id=13373815860B43920100&i_id=13384263550I62094100&p=17
Credit to JellySlimerMan for providing me with the link.
You largely understand what's going on, though. I'm glad for that. You understand that the industry doesn't exactly have the greatest attitude towards female protagonsts, the women wanting to play games, that there is a lack of female protagonists, and so forth. I just wanted to make my stance clear.