Darmani said:
Rebel_Raven said:
Darmani said:
*snipped as I remember what I said*
I disagree. More female characters will bring change to what they're doing. That change will be the reduction of the opposition to female protagonists. Something I see as an extremely important first step. What comes after will come more naturlly. FPSes with female protagonists (maybe a perfect dark sequel/reboot), women with various amounts of depth of writing will appear, maybe a heavenly sword sequel/hack and slashes, parkour, asssassin games, stealth games, and generally a smattering of the sort of games guys already star in, plus agency to have intimate relationships they initiate while you play as them.
A lot of relationships aren't initiated by players *now.* The stories had designated love interests (Pandora's Tower) or multiple possible appealing females (OoT) that may or may not become love interests (Valkyria Chronicles, Bioware, otome games).
Okay but point the thing is we're kind of already there its just a matter of expansion.
Personally I think female characters, especially if "gender matters" as you've requested, aren't going to work outside an ensemble piece. Just like dudes fall for babes in bikinis, explosions, and narratives where "they are the one the only one" in whatever context ladies seem to like games where they have character that has a social or interactive context. Okay not as petty a drive as the girl in bikini but it is a thing. Even in TTRPGs this is practically standard for "so you're having or want to have female players in your group" this is advice 101. Give them some respect, eliminate elements that feel hostile or unwelcoming, put a wasketbasket next to the toilet and clean the bathroom, and make sure you have a social aspect or forum and ability to resolve conflicts that way in your game.
All those things will help make females more welcome and more participatory in gaming even if they always play fighter jocks.
Even ignoring that.. what about sports and driving games? Shooters its gotten criminal espeically with all the modes and body hopping and in police procedurals female characters have long become accepted and even standarized and played by Michelle Rodriguez 3 out of 5 times. But how do you put a female protagonist in other genres where they aren't just rare by virtue of lack of use but genuinely out of place.
A lot of male protagonists get to initiate relationships in games.
Kratos had a wife, and daughter, and gets orgies in pretty much every game he's in!
Nathan Drake has love interests.
Niko Bellic has optional dates in GTA IV. Pretty sure he's not alone in that series.
Wei Shen in Sleeping dogs has optional relationships.
There's a long list of guys out there that go on quests because their wife and/or kid are in peril, or their girlfriends are.
Even in games where women get to have relationships, the PoV is at times changed to a guy, and they're the ones really initiating it. I'm hard pressed to think of the reverse of that.
When was the last time a game company told a developer they could -not- have the guy have a relationship?
Lara Croft had do love interests, and Nilin was actively denied one.
I agree respecting women is the way to get them involved, but that doesn't mean making them unappealing to guys, and one must be careful to not make them unappealing to anyone.
As much as Bayonetta took flak for her style, some people, women among them, like Bayonetta.
You seem under the mitaken impression that to have female protagonists, you must have a dialogue rich game for it to work. While it might help, it's not the end all, or be all.
There's female gun enthusiasts out there that may enjoy shooters.
There's women who like cars that might enjoy racing games. A female driver could be awesome.
Sports games? Women can like sports, too. Fantasy sports have contained weomen in the past, and don't have to rely on real teams.
Women are people. You can't necessarily constrain their preferrences any more than you can for guys. Women aren't limited to liking certain sorts of games.
Thinking of women, and men in stereotypical boxes is what caused this mess to begin with.
Also, I absolutely adore Michelle Rodriguez. It is a bit of a shame she's typecast as the tough girl, but she sure can pull it off.
One less fear in development that something won't sell might embolden developers to be able to freely create things that people say don't sell? Horror games where you can't fight all that well, if at all? Point and clicks, even though Walking Dead shown that could work, and is already getting a sequel?
Maybe, just maybe there will be a boom of increased revenue as welcomed women join in on buying games in earnest?
Doubtful gaming sale's "decline" is due to the greying of the market and grouping thanks to internet. Don't by half a dozen titles to fill up your hours between classes or part-time job buy the latest CoD for the year plus DLC to play it with your friends from school, college, or just acquaintances from work between your 40-60 work week, gym, taxes, bills, and parenthood. Making Halo and CoD more female friendly (and they've started note the ads and marketing) might do more than putting out more females as single protagonists in games. Also gendering a story can backfire and likely requires more...preparation in the creation process earlier in the design phase. Also there is the whole "Okay this game is about like black ops from Kennedy to Reagan" and a female protagonist may feel out of place for the iconic and basic story they are telling.
In terms of free time eating who suffers more male or females as they grow up and get families and jobs? Moreover of this social freetime just how acceptable is shooting as general rule?
Not one of my usually needling questions I don't know.
Again there are women gamers. But how many of you and your girlfriends go "what the hell, we have a spare 70 minutes let's get on Xbox live and get a deathmatch going" and that is an overall neutral and inclusive activity, not planned or just for me, Jenny, and Natasha (sorry about the names I suck at naming). Versus say guys who can likely get on the horn or with their coworkers and do the same as an opening icebreaker or no commitment no judgement thing. Honest question I know its *changing* and again there are female gamers even shooter, FPS, folks. But as a general baseline event is that more of thing? Not to stereotype but I thought it was more female gamers into RPGs, action adventure games, single player, ryhthm, party, MMORPGs (built in social and artistic elements) and so , and yeah recent increase in fighters I think are more of thing.
I never meant to imply that removing women from the equasion was the sole cause of gaming's financial woes, but I can imagine it playing a part in it. If women spending more on games could help the situation, but the industry is not trying to reach out to them, then it's the gaming industry's fault.
My significant other and I do, often sit down and game for an hour easy. It may not be deathmatches, but we have played Mass Effect 3 multiplayer, Dead Island, Minecraft, Rainbow Six Vegas 1 and 2, borderlands 1, little big planet, Red Dead Redemption, Civilization Revolution, Monster Hunter, Resident evil outbreat 1 2 and 5, and a great many other games with a preferrence for, but not exclusively co-op.
We even tried out Dust (a shooter based on the Eve universe), my SO also played Eve a while.
You can imagine we're diverse gamers, eh?
I mainsly stick to consoles, though since a Wii U is a stronger system than my laptop, and I have a great deal of preference for consoles for assorted reasons.
But seriously, I'm not expecting some grand gaming rennaissance out of this.
Okay but the issue is if there isn't solid money and risk of loss of money AND face from deviating from the tried and true just on mechanical progression and story (many games play out like B level movies). My main theme is the most popular game of the moment is the dudebro shooter. Making the guy who holds the gun a woman will likely NOT have the positive impact you have requested (she won't be more noticeably visible for one and agency in these things is nonexistant its just that it follows an accepted male leaning narrative we don't notice... would Pvt Soap make a good female for you?)
Sure, people might be mad if they made a CoD/MW where a woman held the gun, but what if they made it epic enough that the story the woman is in made up for it?
So long as if they atleast tried to live up to the standards of the rest of the series, yes, Pvt. Soap as a female soldier would be fine. People buy CoD, and MW generally knowing what they're getting. Expecting more, or settleing for less just won't fly too well.
I'm not looking for some far reaching changes to society or anything, here, though with more female protagonists the complaints about female representation will prolly spread out more, and lose focus. People will have more general opinions on female protagonists in games because there will be many directions for them to go.
Agreed. I think they already have them from the last cycle of prominence and I think with the deepening of characters and their relation to the setting in general coming or already here (again with the Femmesheppe and Lightning and even other m Samus to a degree, note Lara Croft is back, we just had Remember Me, and picking your gender is more and more prevalent). Its just now we're on the war story MP cycle and once that's knocked out then gender variation will be on the rise but not before we get sick of shooting everything. And given the response to Bioshock Infinite (another game I really think couldn't have hoped to work with a female protagonist... so Booker DeWitt.. female pinkerton agent, self hating mixed blooded american, possible mother of pseudo mormonism, baby seller, drunk, gambler, and genocidal slaughterer sound like what you're in for?).
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I don't really believe there's things resembling phases in videogame wants. Just people making something, and if it sells well, other people glom onto it. I don't believe it'll go out of fashion until the unlikely event these stop selling, or they believe it won't sell.
Waiting these thigs out may well be folly.
Yes, we got Remember Me, but how did you hear about this game? Did you see a TV commercial for it?
Personally I saw next to no advertisement of the game, and a lot of that was the controversy, and some game event vids. Moreover I've seen a lot of people asking what the game was on facebook via the comments section on videos, and what not. If it fails, I'd say a good part of it was the simple fact not enough people knew it exists. The rest may not have had their standards lived up to.
Tomb Raider got a few commercials, and they were largely attached to Gamestop, but the commercials came and went in an astoundingly short amount of time.
As for the Booker type of character, having played Saints Row 2 I can safely say I was a genocidal, drunk, gambling woman in game, and I even got wasted on drugs more than once, and was quite the criminal, and tap danced over the event horizon into villainy. If the drugs and alcohol were in Saiknts Row 3, I would've screwed around with them in that game, too. So that's everything but the religious part, and the baby selling part. That said, I'd be down for a female protagonist that had those 2 parts added.
Like I said, I like variety, and I want variety. That includes good traits, and bad traits.
So long as the gaming industry lives in fear of doing things outside of the status quo, the industry will not mature. It will not grow. Infact, judging by the way things are going, it'll reach a gaming crash. It'll be a disaster. It won't die, per say, as people will strive to keep it on life support, but it'll be nearly wiped out.
I don't think there will be life support. I think Moviebob is right. As an industry or set set of entertainment video gaming is too big to fail. At best even if Sony, MS, and Nintendo tank we have the whole iOS and Android market and GoG to keep the history and Steam to keep trying what works. The fear of outside the status quo is founded though. I'm honestly struggling how to convey the same experience of Modern Warfare with a female lead but NOT do the hated GI Jane plot that got Other M part of its lambasting. Moreover Modern Warfare taps into so much going on with us right now as thin as it does...I think the DLC concept I pitched was the best I got.
I'm reminded when gay comic fans wanted more representation and they certainly didn't mean for this [http://www.shortpacked.com/2013/comic/book-15/01-about-face/theliewetellourselves/]. Because the modern male character in videogames goes through some brutal shit and when Lara Croft was shown doing so accusations of misogyny and wailing about discomfort with the images and material flew even when the context made sense (a pirate attempting to rape a captive! NEVER!!!)
That said I agree for diversity. I just think wait you'll get more women in gaming and on gaming covers. But I don't think it will satisfy your fundamental dissatisfaction (shooting galleries, etc) or result in something like today (Is she going to look like Robin in Arkham City)
Well, considering that there was some 125 game developers out there, and now we're down to 1/5th that, plus so many game companies are going bankrupt especially in recent times, all the jabs at anti-piracy/DRM, pleas to buy games twice, crazed eagerness to get the CoD bucks to the point where games feel like they sell their souls, offputting DLC practices, and all the other ways they try and make money besides actually selling their games kinda points to a faltering system. How bad it gets remains to be seen, but it may get worse.
I think it's kinda simple on how to make a story of a female soldier. Respect it. Let her do her job. Don't skimp any more than you would a guy.
If the plot is epic enough, people are going to overlook the fact the protagonist is a woman.
Best you have, or not, I agree that a DLC approach could be viable.
Having played through Tomb Raider from start to finish, then a second helping to get 100% I can see where the rape thing might have come from, as it lingered a bit uncomfortably on one scene, but failing the scene after is just a straight up death. And as bad as that scene looks, it's a pivotal one in Lara's life if you get through it.
You're misreading me. I know this much because of what you say later in the thread. My fundamental dissatisfaction is the lack of female protagonists, and the people that try to prevent their existance, and attack their agency.
The Other M's reaction might have been smaller if she had some real, and more numerous, possibly well known competiition. Don't get me wrong, there would have been a reaction what with her being the longest running series with a female only protagonist being roughly 30 years old, but it might not have been so focused on if she weren't the nail that stuck up the most.
Again I think they took the right risk making her a character first not an icon (see Yatzhee's mocking of Mario versus Luigi for how that can end up, heck look at Princess Peach who's gotten more And MORE inoffensive and bubbly). There are some questionable points. And deserved criticism. the lady from G4's issue about Samus not having to prove herself, valid complaint. I still think its wrong but valid. But the sexism as accusation for all faults got out of hand and gave the game and its voice actress a reputation undeserved. That the solution was Jennifer Hale and Retro Studios makes me want to produce snakes from my mouth when people go "we don't just want hardass superbeing you're misinterpreting me" because that's what Hale does and is most known for thanks to Femmesheppe and her other Bioware roles and that's what the Prime Cycle following PC gaming trends alluded to.
All that said I want more women in video games. I like the diversity but at the same time they are there so I think its better for female gamers to be more specific in what they want catered to them. No gatekeeping, okay. But that's specific, the argument is specific. The experiences are specific. My most defense is there is an issue to be and non"you're a pig" reasons (and approaches) had but gatekeeping is still over all wrong. With females as protagonists...I think really its a matter of waiting and looking. Fairytale; Wet; Mirror's Edge; FFXIII-1,2,3; Fable; Metroid; DOA; Okami, Nancy Drew. And even if not as headliners playable female characters as general picks and alts or just filling the cast in Blazblu and other fighting games is more and more a thing. (Shinobu in NMH2)
Its why I have such negativity for the argument of the lack of females in gaming. Its translating more you're not the most prominent in the most popular games in gaming and only for a time because we see an increase. I think it oversimplifies what is going on and enables more outrage than actual analysis and discussion
Even where there is a valid complaint or some serious questions to prepare us for (again with what do females in gaming have to be to be satisfying to that wide untapped female audience)
You mention minecraft in response to my fictional dialogue. I just want to point out if that is so how could you make the next minecraft and make it MORE welcoming to female players? It just seems with some genre too risky, not worth the effort, and with others redundant, in that it won't make a difference in appeal in either respects.
Princess peach got more inoffensive? That's arguable. In Super Princess Peach she battled her enemies, and solved puzzles with wild mood swings, and was on a quest for the "vibe sceptor" with the implications it's the sort of thing that makes mothers happy.
I admit this video
http://youtu.be/e_xbSMK390s
is a bit of overanalyzation, but it pretty much backs up the implication that Princess Peach is fighting her enemies with massive mood swings, and is on the hunt for a what's essentially a vibrator.
I'm not exactly hopping mad, enraged, or particularly offended, but I am kinda dissapoiunted it went that way, and more inoffensive isn't exactly the word I'd use.
Stacked with Other M, and http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=252 (granted it's a joke) I worry for Nintendo's next female hero.
Yeah, I have most of the games you mentioned. Do keep in mind that some of them aren't female protagonist only games.
It can feel like an eternity between game releases, and I actively hunt, and look for games with female only protagonists. I get what I prefer most coz I can't afford them all at times. Mind you that's not so much out of a year's release as several years of releases. It's nowhere near as bountiful as male options. Some years I didn't even get a new game with a female protagonist.
You understood my problems with women just being supporting NPCs. The case is similar for fighting games, too.
I don't have anything against voice actors. It is a sad fact they do get type cast so it's harder to get the sort of roles other than what they're known for, though. Hale's career as a tough girl voice actor isn't limited to Femmeshep. She's sort of what Michelle Rodriguez is to tough women in movies as far as Voice Actors go. It's not rearlly her fault she's typecast, and she has to work.
Feeling negative about this sort of talk is fine. I don't hold it against you. At least you're willing to talk about it as opposed to shouting down your opposition, or ignoring it.
It's not so much a matter that women aren't in the most popular games, it's that those that are out there are easy to not know about and having to research and dig for them is annoying, they're being prevented from being made, and their agency is being reduced.
It's an oversimplification because, to me, it's a very simple matter. Producers, and developers need to stop treating female protagonists, and their agency poorly. At least compared to male protagonists, and male agency.
How would minecraft be more welcoming to women? Have a default woman skin next to Steve, and a woman's voice for grunts by default. Not terribly hard, imo. I wouldn't be too surprised if they've already done it.
The modding community's made a lot of nice female skins, and minecraft is fairly popular with women. I only mentioned it in being more popular than Limbo, IIRC.
