Jimquisition: I'm Going To Murder Your Children

[Aardvaarkman]

She has no right to write a book on game narratives, because she doesn't even GET the narrative power of the medium, she's basically openly stated such.

Yeah, because the Constitution states that only certain people should be allowed to write books under certain conditions.

Have you ever read a book? Have you been to a bookstore? Are you aware of how many terrible, unbelievably bad books have been published since the invention of the printing press?

I would think that you'd understand that I was using it in the same vein as I would if I said "X person does not have the right to lecture on this subject because they are themselves unqualified".
But no.

Obviously she has all legal right to say whatever she wants.

But you clearly wrote that she had no right to write such a book. There was no indication of sarcasm or irony.

How else was I supposed to interpret it? Do you regularly write things that you don't mean? How about trying to write what you actually mean to say in the future?

 

[maddawg IAJI]

I can only speak for myself, but I don't want people getting offended or flagging posts on my behalf. If I being the offended party haven't flagged the post, then I have a reason for doing so. Flagging a post for me only serves to undermine my decision.

I don't see it as apathy, more stay out of my business and I'll stay out of yours. I don't flag post on behalf of others because I don't wont people flagging posts on behalf of me.

Its not about you. It doesn't matter if you choose to flag the post or not, a lot of people don't report threats of violence or insults, that doesn't mean nothing gets done. A person threatening or harassing you may be harassing multiple people either prior or after you. Its the community's decision to deal with problem posters, regardless of your decision.

As I've stated before, this part of "we" doesn't do that. And its not your right to prejudge and presume that anyone does. The fact that you are doing so does not make you any better morally than someone who uses a blanket bias or prejudice to demonize an entire demographic of people.

Did I say the majority of this community was harrassing others? Did I say that the members of this community insult people in online play? No, I don't believe I did. What I did say was that the vast majority of gamers do nothing to curtail it and that is just as bad.

Not a single person posting here has said that someone has the right to threaten the lives of others or those of their children or that its a good and positive thing. If they had you might have an argument.

Well no, not in this thread....But I did just come back from seeing someone state that we should euthanize the mentally ill.

That's how dictatorships start, mate.

Actually, most dictatorships start with a military coup and I'm afraid my subterrain mole army is in no shape for that quite yet.

You are demanding I do only what you tell me and turn on people who don't think like you do and attack them with ridicule and derision.

No, I'm not, I'm asking you to take a moment and bring attention to those who mean ill will to the others around you. You know, because as a community, that's what we should do. Are you telling me you don't call the cops if someone is screaming and threatening your neighbor?

Well if that isn't a text book definition of bullying I just don't know what the fuck is.

Did you just call me a bully because I asked for a community that rejects the extremists? Really?

Looks like my earlier accusation of you wanting to create a mindless internet lynch mob was spot on.

Yep, you got me, everyone break out the torches. Lets go hang someone tonight /sarcasm.

Wow. Really? Only through negativity can you get anything done?

No! Fuck man, only through negativity will anything be brought to attention.

Well then fuck Gandhi, Fuck Martin Luther King.

What textbooks are you reading? Do you think Gandhi enjoyed a foriegn ruled India? Do you think Martin Luther enjoyed sitting in a Blacks-Only bar? Dude, not only are you misinterpreting what I said, you're misinterpreting history and that's pretty tough. They saw the negatives of their existence as a community and they went out and they changed it. They denounced violence and encouraged community solidarity against those who would threaten them. Ghandi encourgaed a self-sustained India, MLK encouraged people to sit at white only areas. They refused to be bullied by others and stood fast in a single community, empathetic to one another.

Guess I'll just go burn the books about them and start reading Mein Kampf.

And now I'm encouraging Nazism apparently! ZE HEIL!

Thanks for justifying that people uses such ultimate negetivities as death threats, because apparently according to you, there is no such thing as positive reinforcement.

Where the fuck did I say that? Seriously, are you like in an alternate dimension or you getting my slightly more evil twin's messages? I said postive reinforcements does not encourage progress as quickly as pointing out the negative aspects of our society? Positive reinforcements is what allowed Stalinism to survive for so long, because the people refused to accept the problems with it and instead believed they were best off.

Well that's interesting because back up the post that's exactly what you told me I wasn't allowed to fucking do.

No, I said you shouldn't be arguing against a proven positive aspect. Never told you to stop, just thought you were acting silly for doing so.

Quite likely the same justification the warped individuals who thought it was ok to threaten to kill someone's kids tell themselves.

You got me there, not gonna lie. That was a good one. Probably also the same justification that you used to call me a nazi, a bully and a dictator. Seriously mate, I think you're also getting a tad bit overemotional.

Sorry but I don't feel that just focusing on the negatives without enforcing them with positives gets you anywhere. It just breeds anger angst hatred and contempt.

Mind telling me how encouraging one another to report posters who bully or threaten others and to encourage an overall solidified community of gamer is not a positive aspect?

All this weeks video and these subsequent posts have served to do is to alienate and demonize people with which you share common ground. The shared belief that its wrong to threaten to kill someone or their children.

How have I alienated them? The only people I have complained about besides the extremists and bullies, are the ones who do nothing to stop the extremists and bullies and even I'm guilty of falling into that catagory.

If this is what can be expected from the future of The Escapist then count me out. As apparently it isn't the website of keen open-minded intellectuals I thought it was.

Fine, not gonna stop ya. You've already proven you're just gonna twist whatever I write anyways and I'll admit, its kinda getting really annoying.

 

[maddawg IAJI]

This is a little bit off-topic, but does anyone know the name of that platform game where you rotate the screen that Jim shows in the video? I don't play many platformers, but that one seems interesting enough to be worth checking out.

That would be Fez.

 

[wulf3n]

A person threatening or harassing you may be harassing multiple people either prior or after you.

Then those people can report the offence targeted at them

Its the community's decision to deal with problem posters, regardless of your decision.

Are we not free to choose how we as individuals "deal" with problem posters?

If I choose to leave said insult freely and easily available for all to see, to show what type of "person" the offender is, then someone else decides to flag said post hiding it from the discussion, they've taken away my choice.

 

[omnifarious]

The Phil Fish harassment. It wasn't just his remark about japanese games or his actions in IGTM. It was his actions since Fez was released where he has a "Holier than thou" attitude.

To be fair, Phil Fish was taking the harassment long BEFORE Fez was actually released. While I agree with you his actions after Fez's release were both colorful and lacking of taste, I also understand his need to vent five years worth of frustration.

And at the risk of repeating myself, he should have taking a boxing class or something because there's no winning an argument over the internet...

I recall two reasons people were harassing Fish before Fez's release.

The first reason was that his "Upcoming XBLA platformer Fez won the Seamus McNally Grand Prize, the top honour at last night's Independent Games Festival (IGF) Awards at GDC in San Francisco." Emphasis on the upcoming. He won an award for an unreleased game, which makes little to no sense to me.

Source 1: http://www.edge-online.com/news/gdc-2012-fez-wins-grand-prize-igf-awards/

Second, he later tweeted about winning said award in an incredibly offensive way that came off as abrasive. "i just won the grand prize at IGG tonight. suck my dick. choke on it."

Source 2: http://thewiredfishnetwork.com/2012/03/09/fez-creator-talks-smack-about-japanese-games-major-downplay-on-twitter/

Now, death threats are never warranted, but when you act like an abrasive jerk, you should expect the internet to respond in kind.

As far as your first point...
Took a bit of searching to find this, but from what I gather Fez won the award in March of 2012, a month at the very most before it was released, though it did win other minor rewards in '08 and '11. From where I sit, if Fez's first functioning prototype was that good he must have been doing something right to get that much praise. I think it's also worth mentioning that Fez was actually a finished product, but not yet released to the public. I don't know the full details of how distribution works myself, so I can definitely understand your confusion in this. Still, that was a good point you made there, but again, even with all that I'm still not sold on to how that can warrant five years of putting up with harsh negative feedback.

As far as your second point...
I have no disagreement with you that Fish did act in such a manor. However, and bear in mind this is just a bit of nitpicking, part of what you said works to help and hurt your point at the same time. Telling someone to perform fellatio to the point of asphyxiation is no better than calling someone an "arrogant schmuck". The guy might have been joking with his comment to Fish, but that in and of itself presents two problems. The first being that you'd have to tag your own comment as being sarcastic, and the second because it's far too easy to say "I was just joking".

Text on the internet has only implied emotion and at the end of the day we all have to realize that the message given is not always the same message received. And from what I saw in that twitter exchange, no one came out a saint.

 

[Erttheking]

A person threatening or harassing you may be harassing multiple people either prior or after you.

Then those people can report the offence targeted at them

Its the community's decision to deal with problem posters, regardless of your decision.

Are we not free to choose how we as individuals "deal" with problem posters?

If I choose to leave said insult freely and easily available for all to see, to show what type of "person" the offender is, then someone else decides to flag said post hiding it from the discussion, they've taken away my choice.

Frankly that sounds like a bystander effect. "It's not MY problem, why should I help?" Simple, to help make the community a better place and because helping other people out is just the right thing to do.

What choice? You don't write the code of conduct. You didn't decide how infractions would be dealt with on this website. That's like saying that when you report someone for robbery and they get fined instead of publicly ousted as a robber when you wanted the second that your choice was taken away.

 

[KOMega]

I heard about some of the complaints around that Fish guy, but I didn't hear much about the other stories mentioned.
Wow, people can really get upset about things in the gaming community.

Anyways, I heard the important message and everything, but by the end of the video I just keep thinking back to 'dildos' now XD

 

[maddawg IAJI]

Are we not free to choose how we as individuals "deal" with problem posters?

If I choose to leave said insult freely and easily available for all to see, to show what type of "person" the offender is, then someone else decides to flag said post hiding it from the discussion, they've taken away my choice.

Because they're not flagging the post for you. They're flagging the post because the guy broke the rules we set as a society. Its not your choice to make whether justice should be done or not.

 

[wulf3n]

They're flagging the post because the guy broke the rules we set as a society.

Offensive Posts
Please read what you wrote before you post it and think if anyone else could find it offensive

If I as the target don't find it offensive is it breaking the rules?
Is it "Trolling" if I as the target don't see it that way?
Is it "Name calling" If I as the target enjoy being called that?

 

[maddawg IAJI]

They're flagging the post because the guy broke the rules we set as a society.

Offensive Posts
Please read what you wrote before you post it and think if anyone else could find it offensive

If I as the target don't find it offensive is it breaking the rules?
Is it "Trolling" if I as the target don't see it that way?
Is it "Name calling" If I as the target enjoy being called that?

Again mate, you're not the one who makes that decision. The community as a whole makes the choice to report and the mods who make the final decision.

 

[wulf3n]

Again mate, you're not the one who makes that decision. The community as a whole makes the choice to report and the mods who make the final decision.

No it's a group or individual within the community that felt said post broke a rule as they understood it and the mods who make the final decision.

If it was everyone within the community it would require the entire community to flag a post.
Which is why the "Bystander effect" doesn't apply. It is not my responsibility because I am not needed.

But if you really want me to start flagging every post I deem to be offensive just let me know, you'll receive a heap of flags, but It's our responsibility [insert patriotic flag waving in the background]

We're going way off topic now anyway. I guess we're both getting a flag now.

note: By "you'll receive a heap of flags" I don't mean your posts will be flagged, merely that you'll have to deal with an influx of flags.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

Then those people can report the offence targeted at them

Or, other people can report it, because they don't enjoy seeing people bullied or harassed online. It's not just the direct target of such actions who suffers - it's also those of us who read that bullshit in our forums, degrading the quality of our experience.

Should the victims of spam messages (which have actually appeared in this thread), who buy the spammed products be the only ones to report spam? Or should other members report the spam when they identify it, to help get rid of the spammers?

 

[wulf3n]

Which is why the "Bystander effect" doesn't apply. It is not my responsibility because I am not needed.

You do realize that what you've described is EXACTLY the Bystander Effect, don't you?

'It's not my responsibility, somebody else will take care of it, my actions are unnecessary' is the very definition of the Bystander Effect.

Do you?

It should be painfully obvious that a situation where there's no hurdle preventing the "victim" from lodging a claim, and numerical superiority means absolutely nothing, this is clearly not the same as the Bystander Effect.

 

[Erttheking]

Which is why the "Bystander effect" doesn't apply. It is not my responsibility because I am not needed.

You do realize that what you've described is EXACTLY the Bystander Effect, don't you?

'It's not my responsibility, somebody else will take care of it, my actions are unnecessary' is the very definition of the Bystander Effect.

Do you?

It should be painfully obvious that a situation where there's no hurdle preventing the "victim" from lodging a claim, and numerical superiority means absolutely nothing, this is clearly not the same as the Bystander Effect.

Except here's the problem. One report doesn't cut it on the Escapist. Multiple reports are required, the more the more likely responsive actions will be carrying out. People have gotten away with saying blatantly insulting things before, most likely because not enough people flagged it. Also, doing it isn't really that much of a hassle. Two mouse clicks are all it takes.

 

[wulf3n]

One report doesn't cut it on the Escapist. Multiple reports are required, the more the more likely responsive actions will be carrying out.

Evidence?

I'm not saying you're incorrect. But the forum systems I've been a part of have always treated all "flagged" posts equally, regardless of the number of people flagging.

Looking at this post:

Do you know how many times I've had to dish a suspension for threatening or bullying on this site? Do you know how many people report posts in which a user is threatening, insulting or telling someone to commit suicide? Very often, its just one person. It doesn't matter if the thread has over 100 views, only one person will report a post like that.

It would appear a single report is all that is necessary.

 

[Erttheking]

One report doesn't cut it on the Escapist. Multiple reports are required, the more the more likely responsive actions will be carrying out.

Evidence?

I'm not saying you're incorrect. But the forum systems I've been a part of have always treated all "flagged" posts equally, regardless of the number of people flagging.

Looking at this post:

Do you know how many times I've had to dish a suspension for threatening or bullying on this site? Do you know how many people report posts in which a user is threatening, insulting or telling someone to commit suicide? Very often, its just one person. It doesn't matter if the thread has over 100 views, only one person will report a post like that.

It would appear a single report is all that is necessary.

Actually yeah, right here.

Report button? How does it work?
If the offending post is reported twice (That is, the report button has been clicked twice.) the offending post is sent to a queue known as the 'mod queue'.The more reports it gets the higher up the queue it goes and the moderators will pick it out and hand out the deserved wrath.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.112832-The-Banhammer-and-You-A-Users-Guide-to-the-Forums

It really seems like more than one flag is needed. And the more flags it gets the faster it gets dealt with. Which is good for people who are being especially problematic.

 

[wulf3n]

One report doesn't cut it on the Escapist. Multiple reports are required, the more the more likely responsive actions will be carrying out.

Evidence?

I'm not saying you're incorrect. But the forum systems I've been a part of have always treated all "flagged" posts equally, regardless of the number of people flagging.

Looking at this post:

Do you know how many times I've had to dish a suspension for threatening or bullying on this site? Do you know how many people report posts in which a user is threatening, insulting or telling someone to commit suicide? Very often, its just one person. It doesn't matter if the thread has over 100 views, only one person will report a post like that.

It would appear a single report is all that is necessary.

Actually yeah, right here.

Report button? How does it work?
If the offending post is reported twice (That is, the report button has been clicked twice.) the offending post is sent to a queue known as the 'mod queue'.The more reports it gets the higher up the queue it goes and the moderators will pick it out and hand out the deserved wrath.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.112832-The-Banhammer-and-You-A-Users-Guide-to-the-Forums

It really seems like more than one flag is needed. And the more flags it gets the faster it gets dealt with. Which is good for people who are being especially problematic.

Wow that seems ripe for abuse, since a single user can flag a single post multiple times. Maybe it doesn't do anything, but the site itself doesn't stop you.

 

[Gilhelmi]

If you a developer, I would give this advice for you to follow, now repeat after me. "I am armed, I am prepared to defend myself and my family. I have hired armed security for PAX (or whatever convention I went to). It did not need to come to me feeling the need to be armed.

That would be a silly statement, because it is entirely unbelievable, and any sane convention like PAX does not allow firearms through the door. Who would go to a convention that allowed armed people to walk around?

The other reason it is silly is because of completely unnecessary escalation.

That is why I would hire off-duty police or private security forces. Police are allowed to carry at all times, even off-duty (depending on local laws).

To the second point, the people making the death threats have already escalated the situation to that level. I do not know who is crazy and who are just annoyed. I can not know what their intent is, so I will take extra precautions.

 

[Plunkies]

"Death threats are bad." Way to go out on a limb, Jim. Good thing you made this video so the .000000001% of people responsible for this will see it and immediately stop being lunatics. Also appreciate you grouping the whole of anyone who has ever played a video game as being responsible for death threats sent to a dev, as if even death threats to public figures are somehow wholly unique to people who play video games and are not at all a thing that's been happening since the invention of postal service.

 

[Erttheking]

One report doesn't cut it on the Escapist. Multiple reports are required, the more the more likely responsive actions will be carrying out.

Evidence?

I'm not saying you're incorrect. But the forum systems I've been a part of have always treated all "flagged" posts equally, regardless of the number of people flagging.

Looking at this post:

Do you know how many times I've had to dish a suspension for threatening or bullying on this site? Do you know how many people report posts in which a user is threatening, insulting or telling someone to commit suicide? Very often, its just one person. It doesn't matter if the thread has over 100 views, only one person will report a post like that.

It would appear a single report is all that is necessary.

Actually yeah, right here.

Report button? How does it work?
If the offending post is reported twice (That is, the report button has been clicked twice.) the offending post is sent to a queue known as the 'mod queue'.The more reports it gets the higher up the queue it goes and the moderators will pick it out and hand out the deserved wrath.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.112832-The-Banhammer-and-You-A-Users-Guide-to-the-Forums

It really seems like more than one flag is needed. And the more flags it gets the faster it gets dealt with. Which is good for people who are being especially problematic.

Wow that seems ripe for abuse, since a single user can flag a single post multiple times. Maybe it doesn't do anything, but the site itself doesn't stop you.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way. I'm pretty sure that the people who established this site are smart enough to tell when a single person is smashing the report button over and over again.