I said where I was coming from: The player is a part of the character so what the player identify as follows. So if the player identify as female Booker DeWitt and Duke Nukem will also be female.Aardvaarkman said:
Jimquisition: Objectification And... Men?
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
- Start date
Suuuuuuuuuuuuuure, lack of people seeing males as objects to be discarted. Right.Fiairflair said:
I will leave this here:
http://www.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GirlWritesWhat
No need to thank me for it.
/thread
They are pressing their shoulders together, so their pecks become automatically smaller in appearance, just let them relax and you will see them in their full glory.Zachary Amaranth said:
I do think those things are important, but you were arguing that the sexualization of women in video games was comparable to slavery.Aardvaarkman said:
There's also a difference between women's rights and digital expression, your not infringing on someones rights by having sexualized content, unless they are somehow forced to view it against their will or was harmed to produce that content.
Compare women in video games to pornography, hentai, ecchi or any movie with Anna Faris in it. They all have sexualized content, it's meant for a certain demographic to enjoy. If you don't want to view it, then you don't have to. Like Dragon's Crown, Dead or Alive and other sexualised games, it's not infringing on women's rights.
I'm guessing you have a habit of over emphasizing things to try and get a point across, but it negates actual discussion of the topic. Try and tone it down and come up with solutions rather than pointing out what you feel is a problem.
For example (I'm aware this isn't a good idea but it's meant to serve as an example of constructive argument),
One solution could be to divide up games, to put markings on packaging that displayed the level and sexual preference of the content displayed. Likely it would create more problems than solutions and divide up gamers even more.
Another could be to have strict limits on ALL games that prevent breasts from jiggling or being over a certain size. But then... What about the people who appreciate that content?
How about more games with a non-sexualized female lead in a completely not sexualized world, with no swearing or anything ever. Can't have stabbing because penetration is phallic. Mmmm... realistic. You know in the real world sexualization of others happens all the time, sometimes people even have sex.
See... the thing is. We don't know what those arguing for "Women's Rights" actually want... So feel free to tell me what you want to happen?
Not even for a second have I ever thought "yep men are objectified" or "yep they have it just as bad as women" when it comes to games portraying them, hell media in general. Fuck no. How could someone even think so ignorantly, mind boggling how stupid some people can be when it comes to these things. That's like a spoiled rich kid screaming for ice cream and not getting it and someone saying "wow he has it as bad as the starving kids in africa" utterly absurd level of non-logic beyond belief.
I'd just like to say I agree 100%.HappyRat said:
The thing is however, that most gamers (Not talking about you Moonlightbutterfly) simply REFUSE to boycott or vote with their wallets regarding ANY issue. Most seem to buy the game regardless, and continue to ***** in internet forums, as if they have been wronged somehow. (See Mass effect 3, Diablo 3, Simcity...)
Honestly, if you vote for your wallet, and you're a part of a sizeable demographic (like most claim to be) the industry with time will adapt to your taste. If it doesn't, then you're offically a niche market and have to wait endlessly like the rest of us. (Will they ever make good CRPGs again?)
Jim, may I call you Jim?
Anyway, Jim... This was a very interesting video even though I took issue with some things, some things I found problematic and almost paused the video halfway through to jump on the forum to get all righteously indignant and such, I am so glad I buried that knee-jerk inclination and watched the video all the way through before coming here and found the rest of the video and your points therein not quite as objectionable as I first feared. You did a very good job in raising the issue of the difference between Objectification and Idealization, but there's still one or two things that are niggling me.
You seem to be fixating on the idea that All objectification is Sexual Objectification. Maybe what's happening to Marcus Fenix isn't actually objectification but dismissing out-of-hand that it ever could be because nipples do not grow firm and penises do not become tumescent as gamers ogle his character-design seems insultingly dismissive to me. (Not to mention the fact that 1-in-5 women, 1-in-6 men and 1-in-3 sheep all want to bang Sean Connery and at least half that number want to bang Patrick Stewart makes the 'Old Solid Snake is Old, and therefor Ugly' commentary sound laughably lame.)
What Is Fenix, and other 'Grizzled' male protagonists then if they are not to be used to encourage the moistening of thighs? Well, he's 'Grizzled', and that means he's 'Ard! He's a 'Ard man, wot does 'Ard things an makes 'Ard decisions to do 'Ard things all the namby-pambies couldn't do, 'cuz they're not 'Ard! Most Gamers I'm aware of don't actually want to Be Marcus Fenix, they want to be Themselves in a Marcus Fenix suit, because that's 'Ard! The cardboard-cutout male protagonist becomes just as empty as the female fanservice, acting as nothing more than one of many tools for the acing-out of adolescent fantasy. 'Ard-'Ard-'Ard!
But then I could just be splitting hairs.. Although, that does raise the point of the lack of sociocultural memes allowing positive depictions of females who are lacking in certain standards of conventional beauty.
Thank God for you, Jim.
Anyway, Jim... This was a very interesting video even though I took issue with some things, some things I found problematic and almost paused the video halfway through to jump on the forum to get all righteously indignant and such, I am so glad I buried that knee-jerk inclination and watched the video all the way through before coming here and found the rest of the video and your points therein not quite as objectionable as I first feared. You did a very good job in raising the issue of the difference between Objectification and Idealization, but there's still one or two things that are niggling me.
You seem to be fixating on the idea that All objectification is Sexual Objectification. Maybe what's happening to Marcus Fenix isn't actually objectification but dismissing out-of-hand that it ever could be because nipples do not grow firm and penises do not become tumescent as gamers ogle his character-design seems insultingly dismissive to me. (Not to mention the fact that 1-in-5 women, 1-in-6 men and 1-in-3 sheep all want to bang Sean Connery and at least half that number want to bang Patrick Stewart makes the 'Old Solid Snake is Old, and therefor Ugly' commentary sound laughably lame.)
What Is Fenix, and other 'Grizzled' male protagonists then if they are not to be used to encourage the moistening of thighs? Well, he's 'Grizzled', and that means he's 'Ard! He's a 'Ard man, wot does 'Ard things an makes 'Ard decisions to do 'Ard things all the namby-pambies couldn't do, 'cuz they're not 'Ard! Most Gamers I'm aware of don't actually want to Be Marcus Fenix, they want to be Themselves in a Marcus Fenix suit, because that's 'Ard! The cardboard-cutout male protagonist becomes just as empty as the female fanservice, acting as nothing more than one of many tools for the acing-out of adolescent fantasy. 'Ard-'Ard-'Ard!
But then I could just be splitting hairs.. Although, that does raise the point of the lack of sociocultural memes allowing positive depictions of females who are lacking in certain standards of conventional beauty.
Thank God for you, Jim.
No I didn't. If you believe that is the case, perhaps you point out where I did that?Raioken18 said:
I never framed this as a question of rights. Again, please point out where I did so.
How about videogame makers not make such terribly written and rendered female characters?
Again, when did I ever say this was an issue of rights? See above for what I want to happen. It's not rocket science.
I don't really get why people object so much to Jims persona in the videos. Not only is it played up for absurd comical effect, but its dropped entirely during the actual meat of the video and is only brought up during the intro and conclusion.
That being said, great video as usual, knocked it out of the park.
That being said, great video as usual, knocked it out of the park.
Discarded? I'm not sure I follow. I'll take a stab, though.JellySlimerMan said:
To assert that men in video games are objectified less frequently than women in video games is not to suggest that male objectification isn't a problem.
The words "lack-there-of" were included only to emphasise the differences of opinion around the issue and demonstrate that, regardless of how much male objectification in gaming one thinks there is, female objectification is no less an issue. Additionally, I agree with Jim that male video game characters and female video game characters are not objectified to the same extent.
While I suppose no one specified 'white' males just now, in this video, at this time, in this particular instance (I'll just trust that you scoured the clip to be sure, as that's most likely, or you wouldn't have mentioned it!), it does seem to be the demographic that is most often under this kind of scrutiny.Aardvaarkman said:
As to my guilt, I have enjoyed many games where women are objectified. So... guilty?
You're asking that question to someone on the internet? I'm not out to change the world, I can't make a difference.Aardvaarkman said:
Bigger problems such as every scummy business practice that I can't be bothered listing. The general laziness of publishers in adopting a one size fits all solution to development as recently discussed in a Jimquisition, and of course DRM. These issues cause real tangible harm. A few negative depictions of female characters is not going to cause us to revert back the the gender politics of the 1950s. While it certainly should be discussed there is no need for this week after week flame warring over who's the biggest asshole and how it's the gaming equivalent of a female holocaust.
this does seem like a bit of a stale topic... i mean i understand the importance of these things espacialy in light of nothing changing but the sex in games really has been talked about a lot...
theres only one point id like to dissagree on and thats the fact that male characters can be ugly. i dont think i can think about one main character who wasnt a muscle bound attractive guy, and snake doesnt count, he might be a bit old but he has the build of a young man and can definitly be counted as atractive (i think) so at least on that were kind of sort of equal but not really...
theres only one point id like to dissagree on and thats the fact that male characters can be ugly. i dont think i can think about one main character who wasnt a muscle bound attractive guy, and snake doesnt count, he might be a bit old but he has the build of a young man and can definitly be counted as atractive (i think) so at least on that were kind of sort of equal but not really...
Hmm...
As with every time the issue of gender representation in anything comes up, my first reaction is to judge what I like in Women, and what I'd like to see in their representation. And a Slight variant of the same questions for men that accounts for the fact I'm not attracted to them.
And now... Considering men aren't objectified, but unfairly idealized, I've now got to think up a slightly modified approach...
And what better way to put it than in a hypothetical narrative?
A prince has been kidnapped and is being used as a bartering chip, and three female knights decided to go on the quest to rescue him... For the Big Money Reward, because they actually hate the guy.
They go there, kick ass, and then reach the guy, who seems to be expecting them to give him a kiss, but instead they just drag him back to the castle over their shoulder and give him to the King, who promptly locks the prince away to be used later as a bargaining chip to a an Amazon Tribe's Princess, who agrees to marry the stupid git if it will unite thier counties.
Later, the Prince is mysteriously Assassinated after the wedding. Nobody cares, and nobody is surprised. And from then on, the united country is ruled by the Amazon Princess, who rules kindly, justly, but also firmly against anyone who dare upset the peace.
...
Now THAT is how you Objectify Men!
...
Meanwhile, having less objectified and more idealized women would be like having the female knights have A or B cup breasts and Traverse their way across entire continents in full armor/clothing, fighting creatures many times their size. And the Amazon Princess almost gets confused for a boy underneath the bundle of furs she wears... Which she skinned herself that morning after training all the previous night in the tribe's native combat form.
...Half the men in her tribe are beaten and bruised for some reason... Almost as if they just spend the entire last night getting their asses kicked by her.
...Said amazon Princess also decides to join the Female knights to go beat the everliving stuffing out of the main villains of the story. And she winds up being the one with the highest Physical stats, over and beyond that of any men who joined the group.
...
Now... This sounds like a game I'd be interested in... and that Amazon Princess would be a girl I'd like to date... Right after she's done kicking my ass, and I'm done cleaning my blood off her shoes.
As with every time the issue of gender representation in anything comes up, my first reaction is to judge what I like in Women, and what I'd like to see in their representation. And a Slight variant of the same questions for men that accounts for the fact I'm not attracted to them.
And now... Considering men aren't objectified, but unfairly idealized, I've now got to think up a slightly modified approach...
And what better way to put it than in a hypothetical narrative?
A prince has been kidnapped and is being used as a bartering chip, and three female knights decided to go on the quest to rescue him... For the Big Money Reward, because they actually hate the guy.
They go there, kick ass, and then reach the guy, who seems to be expecting them to give him a kiss, but instead they just drag him back to the castle over their shoulder and give him to the King, who promptly locks the prince away to be used later as a bargaining chip to a an Amazon Tribe's Princess, who agrees to marry the stupid git if it will unite thier counties.
Later, the Prince is mysteriously Assassinated after the wedding. Nobody cares, and nobody is surprised. And from then on, the united country is ruled by the Amazon Princess, who rules kindly, justly, but also firmly against anyone who dare upset the peace.
...
Now THAT is how you Objectify Men!
...
Meanwhile, having less objectified and more idealized women would be like having the female knights have A or B cup breasts and Traverse their way across entire continents in full armor/clothing, fighting creatures many times their size. And the Amazon Princess almost gets confused for a boy underneath the bundle of furs she wears... Which she skinned herself that morning after training all the previous night in the tribe's native combat form.
...Half the men in her tribe are beaten and bruised for some reason... Almost as if they just spend the entire last night getting their asses kicked by her.
...Said amazon Princess also decides to join the Female knights to go beat the everliving stuffing out of the main villains of the story. And she winds up being the one with the highest Physical stats, over and beyond that of any men who joined the group.
...
Now... This sounds like a game I'd be interested in... and that Amazon Princess would be a girl I'd like to date... Right after she's done kicking my ass, and I'm done cleaning my blood off her shoes.
The video we're discussing is about the representation of gender/sex. It doesn't make any sense to assume that it is about white males specifically. Black people, Asian people, Indian people, in fact people of any race can be just as sexist as white people. In fact, women can be just as sexist as men, even against other women.the December King said:
It really seems like you're projecting here, if you think that white males are being specifically targeted.
Well, you were the one who claimed this wasn't worthy of attention because there are bigger problems to deal with. If it doesn't matter because it's "only the internet," then why post that in the first place?Subscriptism said:
What tangible harm do these things cause, and why are they more important issues that how women are represented in gaming? Seems to me that a lot more harm can result from a popular medium using sexist imagery than from dubious copy-protection measures.
DRM means you might not be able to play a game (oh, the humanity!). The depiction of people in popular media can result in self-harm, psychological issues, poor self-esteem, etc.