Jimquisition: Objectification And... Men?
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
- Start date
Recommended Videos
Well I took one look at the title and my reaction was "oh for f*** sake", watched it and like every "gender politics in games" jimquisition or anything on the internet my reaction was well founded. I am do sick of hearing about this "issue", I get it, I really do. Telling me 20 more times isn't going to make me get it any more and neither is it going to change the minds of those who refuse to get it. All it does is make me apathetic, once upon a time I was active over this issue, now I'm so sick of hearing about it from everywhere I avoid getting involved.
There will always be both extremes to this, there will always be those who rail against any attempt for equality and there will always be those waiting to blow any little perceived inequality up to ridiculous proportions. Frankly I'm sick of both sides, I'm sick of the gamer kiddies making all male gamers look bad and I'm sick of every little thing being some giant drama. If everyone stopped being so reactionary to everything and chose when to speak up instead of it being constant it will be noticed a lot better than a constant white noise of nonissues drowning out the few actual issues.
There will always be both extremes to this, there will always be those who rail against any attempt for equality and there will always be those waiting to blow any little perceived inequality up to ridiculous proportions. Frankly I'm sick of both sides, I'm sick of the gamer kiddies making all male gamers look bad and I'm sick of every little thing being some giant drama. If everyone stopped being so reactionary to everything and chose when to speak up instead of it being constant it will be noticed a lot better than a constant white noise of nonissues drowning out the few actual issues.
There's some truth to the issue that men always get portrayed as fat idiots, and women as smart and beautiful. But in most specific cases, the fat idiot male is usually the focus of the story: it is Peter Griffon/Homer Simpson/Fred Flinstone who get the majority of the screen time, comes up with some wacky scheme, gets into hyjinx, and generally has the emotional arc at the centre of the story. Women are often relegated to a supporting role or side plot (your Marge Simpsons, Wilmas etc), and they often end up as the nagging, serious, fun-hating voice of reason.DVS BSTrD said:
The classic sitcom model is an age old parody of the traditional, nuclear family; the recurring themes are blue collar working men, pretty house wives, and precocious children. That's generally the reason we tend to see the fat idiot husband, the overworked smart wife, and the asshole children: they are achetypes, playing against stereotypes.
The thing is, that most people from what I have seen do not use the "They are both objectified" argument as a way of suggesting that it should be ignored, but as a way of pointing out that the issue isn't with bad female characters, but with bad characters overall.Muspelheim said:
That writers should be working on writing decent characters in the first place, rather than simply trying to fix female characters.
Note that I am not expressing my own opinion, merely pointing out what I have seen when people actually talk about male objectification.
Although I would say that despite most male characters being written to appeal to male gamers. They pretty much exist to make "witty" one liners and shoot things. So while they are not "objectified", they are pretty bad in their own right, as the "ideal" male is apparently a meat head with the inability to converse like a normal person, no emotions or value for human life.
Which I think is the point people who make the argument are trying to get across.
Well some of them.
There does seem to be a fair amount of people who actually think the muscular men in gaming are the equivalent of the sexualised women. Which is worrying.
Amen to that.cookyy2k said:
Yes, maybe this topic is well trodden, but it doesn't make it any less important.
As for my stance, people who say "Well men are objectified as well so that makes Jiggly McBoobie LaTits character designs okay" can go fuck themselves. The whole thing can be summed up in two sentences: Male video game characters tend to be power fantasies for men. Female video game characters tend to be sexual fantasies for men.
End of story.
As for my stance, people who say "Well men are objectified as well so that makes Jiggly McBoobie LaTits character designs okay" can go fuck themselves. The whole thing can be summed up in two sentences: Male video game characters tend to be power fantasies for men. Female video game characters tend to be sexual fantasies for men.
End of story.
So I shouldn't just keep saying "Truth=/=Urgency"?Monxeroth said:
Also, you are ignoring that while you may not find this problem to be a big deal, others clearly do. Such is a viewpoint held by many, and it is a view point with valid grounds. If people didn't care about these problems, they (the general gaming public), and journalist wouldn't be talking about them.
The point Jim made is being repeated, not for the sake of repeating, but because people are ignoring it. As I said, and as you complained, this is not the first time someone has made this point. Yet people continue to say things aren't that bad, and that we shouldn't be talking about it. It is being repeated, so it won't be forgotten.
The record isn't broken. People just want to play it again, and again, and again. With reason.
This thread is going to end in a flame war. This cannot be avoided. I really do want to talk about this in a calm and rational manner but...that's just not gonna happen, let's face it.
There comes a point where, if a child sticks his tongue in an electrical outlet enough times, we must ask if it's the child's fault he keeps involuntarily shitting his Teddy Ruxpin pajamas.cookyy2k said:
Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?Ashoten said:I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.
Make of it what you will.
The topic Jim addresses specifically of "are men objectified in video games in the same manner as women?" is treated quite fairly and well I think. However it doesn't address the broader issue of whether or not modern western civilization also presents unhealthy or counterproductive role-models for men. I think that there are plenty of negative and unhealthy roles/stereotypes/expectations/messages being shoved down the throats of young men both regarding their expected physical appearance, societal roles, interactions with other men/women etc. that are worth discussing and dealing with. But to the extent that these roles/portrayals of men appear in videogames it is not "objectifying" in the strictest sense.
INORITE, remember when Bayonetta was banned in the states for showing boobs?RaikuFA said:
The argument is "what happens to my sex doesn't bother me, so what happens to your sex shouldn't bother you." The intent is to dismiss claims that it's bad because the side that is claiming equity doesn't mind (though they get the good end of the equation anyway). Which is why claims to false equivalence should be addressed in the first place.Muspelheim said:
I find it further interesting the obsession with "gamer girlfriends" and "girl gamers" and the bitterness towards the way women (and popular culture in general) view gamers as sad lonely basement-dwelling man-children virgin whatevers, when the mainstream gaming community is so negative towards women, bordering on hostile, unless they play "casual" games or certain MMOs. It's more or less "no wimminz allowed!" followed by "why do girls think my hobby is silly and childish and why can't I find a gamer girl!"
Which is another reason this dialogue needs to exist. It's a shame so many people shout it down before thinking.
Something I think you should have covered Jim was that the claims of men being just as "objectified" also like to ignore the much wider diversity in male heroes. The number of female protagonists that aren't boob and sex caddies can be counted on one hand.
I'd think lesbians, for one.CrossLOPER said:
Though I'd be really disturbed if it turned out that the male ideal is a woman who is essentially a pet with benefits.
1) Superman is an Aliencefm said:
2) Why assume his species has leg hair?
3) Why assume he is a "he"?
Men being objectified in games...... Haa that is the biggest pile of bullshit anyone has ever stated, how people could even try and use that as a counter argument is beyond crazy. That being said I'm not a big fan of the other argument either. Sure some games (Well lots actually) make women look like nothing more than a trophy which you win before hiding it away when a newer, shinier, trophy comes along but I also think it's daft that some people are willing to give their money away to fund kickstarter projects started by "Journalists" who want little more than their 5 minutes in the spotlight. One day this will all blow over.
Also This was my first time watching Jimquisition and it won't be the last time I watch it either, good show Jim.
Also This was my first time watching Jimquisition and it won't be the last time I watch it either, good show Jim.
You are correct. I touched on it a little when I mentioned we can have old/ugly characters, but beyond the mere aesthetic, you're correct that there's a greater diversity.Jennacide said:
Hell, the whole "anti-hero with lots of flaws" thing is almost exclusive to male characters, and they're the type of protagonist I find most compelling.
I agree with Jim. But, for me, these types of sexualisation of a female character are normally stereotypical and not sexual. More stupid and laughable when you see the boobs and everything. You would have to be 14 to get anything out of it. I think most men see it as stupid and continue playing.....especially with that dead and alive rubbish in your vid. Where as Lara was a strong character. I think some may think this stuff is true when compared to real life. In the UK we have The Sun, in which we have a page 3 girl every day, which is a photo of a topless girl on page 3 in our daily newspaper. I guess boobs arnt a thing here as in america. An there is a difference between fantasy idea of a woman and the real woman. Im sure some guys grow up with a blurred line between those two things.
Worse thing is, i know a guy that hates playing females in games. As in, i played ME trilogy as fem shep, she was a strong positive character. He wont play as female, ever. Im sure there is a "your gay" cos you played as a woman or some other pathetic reason. But until developers start making games with strong female characters then us as gamers cant play as those characters. Tomb Raider has shown that this can be done, she can be vulnerable and strong at the same time because it shows she is human and not a superhuman. You feared for her safety not cos she had breasts, but cos she was human. When you play Gears, you dont fear for his safety because he is a macho cartoon character....not a person.
Sorry, i rambled a lot.
Worse thing is, i know a guy that hates playing females in games. As in, i played ME trilogy as fem shep, she was a strong positive character. He wont play as female, ever. Im sure there is a "your gay" cos you played as a woman or some other pathetic reason. But until developers start making games with strong female characters then us as gamers cant play as those characters. Tomb Raider has shown that this can be done, she can be vulnerable and strong at the same time because it shows she is human and not a superhuman. You feared for her safety not cos she had breasts, but cos she was human. When you play Gears, you dont fear for his safety because he is a macho cartoon character....not a person.
Sorry, i rambled a lot.