Jimquisition: Objectification And... Men?

bartholen_v1legacy

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Yes, maybe this topic is well trodden, but it doesn't make it any less important.

As for my stance, people who say "Well men are objectified as well so that makes Jiggly McBoobie LaTits character designs okay" can go fuck themselves. The whole thing can be summed up in two sentences: Male video game characters tend to be power fantasies for men. Female video game characters tend to be sexual fantasies for men.

End of story.
 

Imp_Emissary

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Monxeroth said:
Imp Emissary said:
Monxeroth said:
So i heard you like beating dead horses :U
Truth =/= Urgency
One does not trivialize the other and vice versa and one is not objectively more harmful even if it would be a lot more frequently occuring for example.

Wonder what tired old subject will be tackled next week
DRM?
Bad Business Practices?

Really starting so sound like a broken record by now but oh well...
Don't you think the reason people, (Not just Jim, Bob made this same point a good while ago), keep talking about these problems may be because they haven't stopped being problems?

Ignoring the problems won't make them get better.
Jimothy Sterling said:
I bet on this episode of Road Runner, the coyote tries to catch the bird and fails. Fuck this show.
Every dog has his/her day. Even Coyotes.

He did finally get the Bird on Robot Chicken.
Again
Truth=/= Urgency
A problem may be a problem, just not as harmful or urgent as people make it out to be yknow
I never said to ignore them so thats just a bad strawman right there i said: Sure you can debate something over and over again but please include a few more viewpoints and try to find valid grounds in viewpoints other than your own and at least attempt to not just repeat yourself for the sake of repeating.
So I shouldn't just keep saying "Truth=/=Urgency"?
Also, you are ignoring that while you may not find this problem to be a big deal, others clearly do. Such is a viewpoint held by many, and it is a view point with valid grounds. If people didn't care about these problems, they (the general gaming public), and journalist wouldn't be talking about them.

The point Jim made is being repeated, not for the sake of repeating, but because people are ignoring it. As I said, and as you complained, this is not the first time someone has made this point. Yet people continue to say things aren't that bad, and that we shouldn't be talking about it. It is being repeated, so it won't be forgotten.

The record isn't broken. People just want to play it again, and again, and again. With reason.
 

Erttheking

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This thread is going to end in a flame war. This cannot be avoided. I really do want to talk about this in a calm and rational manner but...that's just not gonna happen, let's face it.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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cookyy2k said:
Well I took one look at the title and my reaction was "oh for f*** sake", watched it and like every "gender politics in games" jimquisition or anything on the internet my reaction was well founded. I am do sick of hearing about this "issue", I get it, I really do.
There comes a point where, if a child sticks his tongue in an electrical outlet enough times, we must ask if it's the child's fault he keeps involuntarily shitting his Teddy Ruxpin pajamas.
 

1337mokro

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Ashoten said:
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.



Make of it what you will.
Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?
 

cefm

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The topic Jim addresses specifically of "are men objectified in video games in the same manner as women?" is treated quite fairly and well I think. However it doesn't address the broader issue of whether or not modern western civilization also presents unhealthy or counterproductive role-models for men. I think that there are plenty of negative and unhealthy roles/stereotypes/expectations/messages being shoved down the throats of young men both regarding their expected physical appearance, societal roles, interactions with other men/women etc. that are worth discussing and dealing with. But to the extent that these roles/portrayals of men appear in videogames it is not "objectifying" in the strictest sense.
 

l3o2828

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RaikuFA said:
Theres some other issues that need to be addressed in this debate. Like the fact that Senran Kagura might never make it outside of Japan due to the west being prudish and crying sexist at anyything that has boobs.
You're being sarcastic, right?
Please tell me you are.
 

Harker067

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CrossLOPER said:
But the women are being idealized as well! Who doesn't want an attractive female who depends on her man?
...depends on her man.... I can think of a lot of people that don't want that (me for starters).




Thanks Jim for once again proving that my cringing dread at seeing a topic come up in your show is entirely baseless.
 

Something Amyss

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RaikuFA said:
Theres some other issues that need to be addressed in this debate. Like the fact that Senran Kagura might never make it outside of Japan due to the west being prudish and crying sexist at anyything that has boobs.
INORITE, remember when Bayonetta was banned in the states for showing boobs?

Muspelheim said:
Even if the arguement that both male and female characters are equally objectified would be entirely true, I can't for the life of me see how that solves anything. It would only make the problem worse, wouldn't it? It doesn't really seem like another reason to just ignore it and go on as usual if the problem is that much larger.
The argument is "what happens to my sex doesn't bother me, so what happens to your sex shouldn't bother you." The intent is to dismiss claims that it's bad because the side that is claiming equity doesn't mind (though they get the good end of the equation anyway). Which is why claims to false equivalence should be addressed in the first place.

I find it further interesting the obsession with "gamer girlfriends" and "girl gamers" and the bitterness towards the way women (and popular culture in general) view gamers as sad lonely basement-dwelling man-children virgin whatevers, when the mainstream gaming community is so negative towards women, bordering on hostile, unless they play "casual" games or certain MMOs. It's more or less "no wimminz allowed!" followed by "why do girls think my hobby is silly and childish and why can't I find a gamer girl!"

Which is another reason this dialogue needs to exist. It's a shame so many people shout it down before thinking.
 

Jennacide

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Something I think you should have covered Jim was that the claims of men being just as "objectified" also like to ignore the much wider diversity in male heroes. The number of female protagonists that aren't boob and sex caddies can be counted on one hand.
 

Something Amyss

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CrossLOPER said:
But the women are being idealized as well! Who doesn't want an attractive female who depends on her man?
I'd think lesbians, for one.

Though I'd be really disturbed if it turned out that the male ideal is a woman who is essentially a pet with benefits.
 

illiterate

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cefm said:
Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?
1) Superman is an Alien
2) Why assume his species has leg hair?
3) Why assume he is a "he"?
 

Tazzman

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Men being objectified in games...... Haa that is the biggest pile of bullshit anyone has ever stated, how people could even try and use that as a counter argument is beyond crazy. That being said I'm not a big fan of the other argument either. Sure some games (Well lots actually) make women look like nothing more than a trophy which you win before hiding it away when a newer, shinier, trophy comes along but I also think it's daft that some people are willing to give their money away to fund kickstarter projects started by "Journalists" who want little more than their 5 minutes in the spotlight. One day this will all blow over.

Also This was my first time watching Jimquisition and it won't be the last time I watch it either, good show Jim.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Jennacide said:
Something I think you should have covered Jim was that the claims of men being just as "objectified" also like to ignore the much wider diversity in male heroes. The number of female protagonists that aren't boob and sex caddies can be counted on one hand.
You are correct. I touched on it a little when I mentioned we can have old/ugly characters, but beyond the mere aesthetic, you're correct that there's a greater diversity.

Hell, the whole "anti-hero with lots of flaws" thing is almost exclusive to male characters, and they're the type of protagonist I find most compelling.
 

SonOfVoorhees

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I agree with Jim. But, for me, these types of sexualisation of a female character are normally stereotypical and not sexual. More stupid and laughable when you see the boobs and everything. You would have to be 14 to get anything out of it. I think most men see it as stupid and continue playing.....especially with that dead and alive rubbish in your vid. Where as Lara was a strong character. I think some may think this stuff is true when compared to real life. In the UK we have The Sun, in which we have a page 3 girl every day, which is a photo of a topless girl on page 3 in our daily newspaper. I guess boobs arnt a thing here as in america. An there is a difference between fantasy idea of a woman and the real woman. Im sure some guys grow up with a blurred line between those two things.

Worse thing is, i know a guy that hates playing females in games. As in, i played ME trilogy as fem shep, she was a strong positive character. He wont play as female, ever. Im sure there is a "your gay" cos you played as a woman or some other pathetic reason. But until developers start making games with strong female characters then us as gamers cant play as those characters. Tomb Raider has shown that this can be done, she can be vulnerable and strong at the same time because it shows she is human and not a superhuman. You feared for her safety not cos she had breasts, but cos she was human. When you play Gears, you dont fear for his safety because he is a macho cartoon character....not a person.

Sorry, i rambled a lot.
 

mdqp

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DVS BSTrD said:
I recall having a similar discussion about the portrayal of men vs the portrayal women in popular culture overall. For from objectifying men, this other person seemed to think that men were unfairly stereotyped as fat idiots who were completely dependent on women to save them from themselves. Now I want you to look at these pictures and ask yourself
http://www.bundyology.com/bal2.jpghttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oJk4uH5eXdY/TVylPQrTwnI/AAAAAAAAAFw/whLXMmyXaOE/s1600/peggy.jpg
Which standard is harder to live up to?
Well, if you want to go down that route, then male characters in videogames are a really hard standard to live up to... :p

I wouldn't say that objectification is the whole problem (although it is part of it), I'd say that there is a problem with female characters design. They are not always meant to be goals/trophies in videogames, but there is a good number of them which is simply poorly portrayed, and there is a lack of variety. Sometimes it's not even pandering, it's just resorting to hollywood's standards idea of "normal" (which means, 9 times out of 10 they are all incredibly beautiful), or abusing some tropes. It's certainly ridiculous, and sometimes stupid, but I feel that using the term "objectification" isn't appropriate for a lot of games, and that things are wrong on a different level.
 

Vivi22

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Monxeroth said:
MaxwellMouse said:
Monxeroth, it is not everyone has seen all internet videos before. Even if it is a covered topic, that does not make it any less valid or relevant. I see people saying things like this all the time, as recent as the whole Dragon`s Crown issue.
It does if there is nothing new brought to the table in a long time then yes, that does make it less relevant since its blown out of proportion and not as equally urgent as it is true yknow >_>

Less valid, most likely not
So you think there is no benefit to reframing an argument for, what could potentially be, a new audience? Or a segment of an audience that may still be in denial about an issue that others have already covered?

Because you'd be wrong in that case. Objectification is still an issue, and people, including members on this very site, continue to use this flimsy excuse to defend it indicating the message hasn't quite sunk in yet.

And I have one final problem with the major premise behind your comments on this video: you seem to be of the opinion that there is some actual debate to be had here about whether women and men are or aren't being objectified in the majority of video games. But this belief that if there is one side to an argument, there must be another, equally valid counter argument is a fallacy. It's simple fact that viewed through the lens of Western culture, games are objectifying women and idealizing men. There is nothing more that can be brought to this argument because anyone arguing the opposite is factually wrong, and anyone trying to defend the current state of affairs is at best an idiot and at worst sexist.

Regardless of what your parents and teachers told you as a child, not every issue actually has two valid sides, and not everyone's opinion is worthy of respect and tolerance.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Monxeroth said:
Why? Because i dont happen to agree with this one in particular or the way it presents itself while there are numerous other Jimquisition episodes that i deem fucking gold-worthy (no sarcasm intended, im actually being serious real talk here ok?)

Its just a mere observation and i havent said and or implied that you should just quit and never do this again, its your show, you have the right and the only entitlement to anything here to do as you wish.
If these subjects and these types of videos are what you want to produce in the future then, ok, do that, your videos and your show and my subjective opinion or anyone elses for that matter should NEVER be the reason to compromise the integrity and the presentation of your videos.


Like you said, some people do not like the jimquisition persona and presentation.
...and? who gives a flying fuck if people dont like it or not?
Internet and videos like these are personality driven - Totalbiscuit

So i find it just contradictory for people to demand change in personality and peronas when..thats what some people are here for, thats why im here >_>
For the second time, you're altering what your argument was. It's not that you "disagreed with this one in particular." You said my whole show repeats itself and only says the same things. If that's what you believe I do, I wish to amicably suggest an alternative Monday morning viewing.