Jimquisition: Objectification And... Men?

[DGMockingJay]

Same goes for popular media. Sure theres a place for DoA and Gears of War, just like in movies theres a place for porn and cheesy action flicks, books have place for erotic novels and whatnot, etc etc. This does not mean we want a whole bloody medium to be just porn and muscly peabrains (and those who do want that, why the hell are you complaining? there not every going to be a shortage of those)

Also romance novels are a genre, not a medium. Gaming is a medium, shooters are a genre. 'male-centric' is not even an essential part of shooters. Try and think a bit harder about your analogies.

The medium has several genres that serve to men.FPS and Fighting Simulators for example. Just like books have a genre that serve females specifically.

Thats not to say that video games as a medium cater exclusively to men. I mean if the idea is, that there are no game that exist in this world that have good female characters, women would like, then thats truly not the case. Games like Tomb Raider, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Resident Evil 6 + Revelations, Beyond Two Souls, Remember Me have good female characters, and most of them are recent or upcoming.

Nobody asks for these games. They just exist. And now with the advent of female gamer demographic, this type of games are only going to increase. Organic growth. Do you think teenage girls demanded chick flicks to be made?? No. People make them still because there is demand.

Also, Look at Wii games. Now I wont say it serves to females, but the number of female gamers on Wii is massive, even more than men [80% of Wii owner are females]. Now they must be doing something to attract the female gamers, I am sure.

Also I find it tough to believe that 47% of gamers are women even though the games exclusively cater to men.. I dont think such a large number of women are playing games even though games dont even consider their needs.

 

[CalUKGR]

The problem is, Jim, that some men in some games are objectified - certainly on a purely visual level. I'd cite Dante, from the most recent DMC game. Both he and his gorgeous-looking twin brother are dreamily good-looking young men, designed by someone with a VERY keen appreciation of male beauty. Personally (and speaking as a gay man) I can't get enough of a look at him (opening cut-scene FTW!).

It is true enough to say that in most games most male characters are indeed idealised; but in a few, like DMC, they are clearly objectified as well - and as us Brits would say: Gwooarh! Eh?

 

[DGMockingJay]

I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.

Make of it what you will.

Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?

Like, maybe he just uses his breath to freeze his own leg and then just brushes them off. Or maybe he just, like, burns them off with this eyes.

Can Superman's powers harm himself? His hair is basically indestructible if not he'd have his glorious mullet burned of every single time a heat based enemy was encountered. So why should there be an exception for his own heat vision which still works on the same principles and does not seem to be all that strong, compared to other heat powers in the same universe.

Kryptonite razorblades?

There you go.

I think he uses his laser eyes, because its fast and efficient.

If his hairs were really indestructible, how come his own laser eyes destroys them??

 

[FoolKiller]

This is my idea of an idealized female protagonist:

Spoiler

Now in video games this becomes a problem because people will claim that its just a guy with a female skin.

 

[CrazyCapnMorgan]

Objectification And... Men?

A common argument in the ongoing debate over gender and videogames is that women and men both are equally objectified. Is that really true?

Watch Video

Great video, even if the subject has been brought up numerous times. A worthy debate, examination and rebuffing is always welcome in these types of affairs.

I know you touched briefly on the whole exclusivity of the male hero "ideal" and how they can be varied and you touched upon the variety of female NPCs, but I wonder if you've played or seen anything of Persona 3 or Persona 4? These characters are not overly sexualized AND have realistic traits and flaws that, in my opinion, should be brought to light in this type of discussion on how to portray different kinds of people correctly. Kanji Tatsumi and Naoto Shirogane are two of the most well thought out characters from Persona 4, as well as Aigis and Junpei from Persona 3. I wonder if, in future episodes, you could touch on these examples of characters and how they impact, not only the player, but the image of the industry?

Just my two cents, Jim.

 

[verdant monkai]

True. There are many "manly men" in Skyrim, but there are also men who don't at all fit that description(Nazeem=prick). Just as there are women in Skyrim who are pretty girly girls, and other women will cut your head off as soon as they look at you(not just the bandits). Some aren't even that pretty either. Though, none on either gender are fat.

That said, Skyrim is kind of the exception that proves the rule. There are many different types of male/female characters because that's what the game is famous for, and that is how they are made almost always.

Many other games can't say that.

I'm talking about this character as an individual nothing to do with Skyrim other than its where he comes from. He is just an example of a man who has been objectified into a killing machine, which isn't nessecarily an ideal that most men want to achieve.

And to set the record straight I love the Elder Scrolls but the characters are some of the worst in existence. They may be diverse but they are all boring forgettable cardboard cut outs.

 

[Dire Sloth]

This is my idea of an idealized female protagonist:

Spoiler

Now in video games this becomes a problem because people will claim that its just a guy with a female skin.

Damn. Just can't win!

 

[Ukomba]

Don't both genders want to be desirable? Making male characters appeal to men, means making a man whom women want. Old and grizzled can still be attractive to women. Sean Connery won People's Sexiest Man Alive at 59, and there are regularly men over 40. It seems to come down to more what each gender finds attractive and playing to that. Women buy those skimpy outfits and try to pull off those looks even when they shouldn't.

Games are playing up that old 'men are shallow, women are deep' stereotype of what each find attractive. Not necessarily wrongly. My wife can watch Hunchback of Notre Dame and say Esmeralda should have chosen Quasimodo. And it seems just as many women go for the dark, troubled, and brooding Snape as do Edward or Jacob.

For the record, I'd like to see more variety of women in games for variety's sake, but this might be more of a 'men and women are different' issue. I personally like the female avatars. I preferred Fem Shepard to Male Shepard, and had no problem romancing Garrus with her. My wife preferred a blond male renegade Shepard.

*Side question* is Jack from Mass Effect objectified? She wears the skimpiest outfit and I'm sure fits some peoples definition of desirable.

*Side Side note* Is it weird to find Kasumi and Tali the most attractive females in Mass Effect? They are the most covered.

(M)Ass Effect 2 wins the trophy for most objectified women. Aside from Jack, you have Samara, the justicar with high red heels. But the 1st place goes to Miranda, because the camera always focuses on her ass.

Ah, no, I believe you'll find that Final Fantasy X still holds that trophy.

As for ME2. I don't know. I never found Samara attractive, like, at all. Not sure if it was her age, her design, or her personality, she just never came off as an object of desire to me. Same goes for Miranda. Sure she's got a good body, but I just couldn't get over her being an infertile, cloned, gender switched man. Jack didn't seem come off as objectified either. I couldn't romance her either, I just kept seeing her as a wounded child. She was great in ME3.

 

[Rad Party God]

This episode is objectively objectifyingly objective.

 

[GreenTeaGal]

I enjoyed this, thank you! Enlightenment aside, I would kinda like to see some games where men are truly objectified... for the sake of equality of course.

 

[Piorn]

If big publishers can afford to neglect half the playerbase, there is even less room to justify the greedy business tactics of recent years.
Still, I'm glad to be just an observer. They'll either work to find a solution, or they don't.
People will vote with their purchases, so we don't actually have to talk about it, we just have to wait it out and let reason take it's course.

 

[Gunjester]

You should do a episode about the way male characters are portrayed in video games.

...He just did. We're portrayed well.

 

[Eve Charm]

I'm lost to the point where good looking female character is nothing but objective but good looking male character is idealized.

DOA for example, all the characters have some story and they are just there to fight for a prize pretty much aside from the volleyball game What makes the females objective but the shirtless guys not. And no being a guy character doesn't put a better story, or get the woman story, it the same thing.

The Ideal woman isn't pretty? Ya I know we all have different tastes but how many of say 100 people are going to write down features like Fat, ugly or hairy. on the topic of boobs and butts tho, ya plastic surgery is pretty big in the us, same for male hairloss. How many male leads of games are balding ;p.

Playing MMO's, the big fat ugly character builds are hardly ever used and when they are used it's people making a joke character male or female, so can you see reasons on not spending a ton of money to make ugly character models.

Face it, Men and Women don't want ugly characters in games, the only that want them are for jokes.

 

[FoolKiller]

This is my idea of an idealized female protagonist:

Spoiler

Now in video games this becomes a problem because people will claim that its just a guy with a female skin.

Damn. Just can't win!

Actually I posted why there is a problem with the whole process at one point.

If a game has a female protagonist that is masculine, then its bad because its a masculine character with a female skin.
If a game has a female protagonist that is feminine, then its bad because it stereotypes females.
If a game has a female protagonist that is genderless, then its bad because once again, its just a male character with a female skin.
If a game has a male protagonist then its bad because it isn't female.

I read complaints that fall into these four categories every time. The devs see this too and think "well, we can't win no matter what we do so lets do the safe thing and have a male protagonist"

There are two big problems overall.

1. The way that females are portrayed a lot of the time. The crazy attire and poses need to be removed.

2. No one has ever actually come up with a real solution to specific things rather than just sweeping generalizations. I've actually asked several people and they just make general statements without being to give one solid concrete example of what to specifically do.

The problem that I see is that the concept of a feminine trait is sexist by definition and so you can't be non-sexist and use those traits.

 

[Darth_Payn]

An interesting theory, Jim, but how do you know for sure women wouldn't play games with the kind of protagonists you talk about, just for fun? To me, if any series would have a large female audience, it's Final Fantasy and their "girly men" leads. Also, you left out the approach of male/female sexual characterization from games by Bioware.

And what's this about Bioshock: Infinite's creator intending to make it for the "DudeBro" crowd?

 

[Imp_Emissary]

Internet-"Hey! There is a problem"

Me- "What is it?"

Internet-"Women in games are over sexualized!!!"

Me-"Why is that a problem?"

Internet-"because some people don't like it"

Me-"Well I don't like tomatoes on my tacos"

Internet-"Derp,Derp'Derp"

Me-"Is it hurting people?"

Internet-"Well there is absolutely no evidence but we say it is... so yes it is hurting people."

Me-"Ohh, so what do you plan to do about your problem?

Internet-"Just another wave of over entitled bitching about someone's art form and how things have to change"

Me-"Really? I just don't buy tacos that have tomatoes on them, some people like tomatoes on their tacos so I don't think it has to change"

Internet-"Derp,Derp,Derp"


**Disclaimer**
This was a fictional dramatization of a typical conversation with the internet.

Is there a solution in this mire of sexism in video games that doesn't trample all over an artists creative design? Or is it nothing more than a whine about stuff people don't like. I hear thousands of people AGAINST sexism in video games and AGAINST over sexualized women and now even the idealization of men. Never once have I heard someone FOR a solution to this supposed problem, just whiners and the supposed moderates that say we should have discussions about it which is just a cowards way of supporting the whiners by giving credence to their argument.

Spoiler: Would you like some cheese?

It's good cheese.

Goes well with whine. I know because I've had some here already.

Anyway, I think the reason no one talks about a solution is because we all kind of "know" what it is.

We just have to ask/demand more diversity in game characters. Whether or not the developers/publishers listen is another thing. After all like we found out with The Last of Us, they seem to not want to even bring women in to test the game, so I guess all we can do with others is keep asking, or be louder.

Then, all we must do is buy the games with characters that we find to be more diverse(in this particular case, women who aren't made to be overly "sexy"), and maybe tell them why we bought the game with a short email. We can still buy games that don't of course. Heck, buy Dragon's Crown and you can do both. It has some over sexualized female characters, as well as some that aren't like the elf archer.

Also, while people are not being hurt physically, or insulted directly by the overuse of some characters in games. It is making some feel bad, or uncomfortable.

 

[Ben Los]

Though some points in this video may be redundant, Jim is not beating a dead horse. The horse is not dead until we see some honest-to-God change in gaming culture.

Also worth mentioning: Can you really blame Jim for going after the topic of "Gender Roles and Gaming" when it has repeatedly generated more discussion than almost any other topic? I'm sure Jim wouldn't continue making episodes about it if the viewers didn't create such a stir each time. That stir can be seen as evidence that the issue is in the back of many people's minds, and therefore needs to be continuously talked about.

 

[Mosley_Harmless]

If you want things to change, you have to make the effort yourself. You can't point the finger at the industry and accuse them of being sexist pigs just because they're not looking out for your personal interests. That's just lazy. There seem to be plenty of people that are fed up with the way things are, just like there are plenty of people who feel like things are just fine. The people that are fed up should make an assessment of how much they really care, find a group of likeminded individuals and start making the videogames that they themselves would like to see, which is exactly what every other developer out there did. They had a vision and they made it happen, they didn't try to guilt trip some faceless industry into doing it for them. If you can't be bothered to put in the hard work, then maybe you don't really care, maybe you're just looking for something to be mad about.

 

[wizzy555]

The problem is, Jim, that some men in some games are objectified - certainly on a purely visual level. I'd cite Dante, from the most recent DMC game. Both he and his gorgeous-looking twin brother are dreamily good-looking young men, designed by someone with a VERY keen appreciation of male beauty. Personally (and speaking as a gay man) I can't get enough of a look at him (opening cut-scene FTW!).

It is true enough to say that in most games most male characters are indeed idealised; but in a few, like DMC, they are clearly objectified as well - and as us Brits would say: Gwooarh! Eh?

Yeah, its odd that people don't realise that one man's power fantasy is another man's (or woman's) sex fantasy.

 

[Legion]

It depends on the guy and the girl in question. Dante didn't go shirtless for the guys to look at his abs.

As someone that has used that argument in the past, I do so more to address the issue of self image: specifically that stereotypically men don't look at Kratos and think they need to hit the gym while an attractive female character seems to put off women that can't live up to the big boobs and thin waists. It isn't that I don't get where women are coming from, but I think the wrong message gets taken away. I'm a 35 your old hairy guy with minor acne, crooked teeth, and a beer gut, and I don't get self conscious when I see Dante, or Brad Pitt, or a muscle bound guy in tights in a comic book. I'm not always happy with everything about me, but I know I don't have to live up to some ideal, especially one that can only exist digitally, or through plastic surgery, starvation diets, non-stop exercise, and drugs.

But an element behind these gender topics is that yes, a lot of women still feel the need to live up to the Lara Crofts, and the response is to minimize their usage, not to try and break through their personal beauty myth. I'd like to think that a something women could learn from the guys in these debates is that you don't need to have your self worth dictated by how much you match something designed to be an unrealistic fantasy, and that the problem we do have with the beauty myth, exists less because of the myth's existence, but on people that do seem to think that their fantasy should be reality. Don't attack Lara Croft for being attractive, or anyone that finds her attractive. Attack those that expect you to be her, especially if that someone is yourself.

A line of argument I saw a woman use in another one of these topics in fact. She basically said more or less the same thing, that she doesn't have a problem with these fictional characters as her sense of self worth isn't determined by attractive characters.

A point I can certainly understand and get behind, as I also don't look at any fictional characters and think they are an idealised person I should try and be like.

But I don't think that is the reason for why a lot of people don't like them. I think the reason is because they believe that it reduces women's importance down to their physical appearance, that the characters personality, thoughts and feelings are seen as unimportant, whereas their physical appearance is.

I can definitely follow that line of argument in regards to characters who are practically nothing beyond "sex appeal" such as Rachel from Ninja Gaiden 2; but I also frequently see people who object to women being sexy, even if they are also an amazing character beyond that. Which to me is not a fair judgement to make.

In a thread yesterday somebody used Jill Valentine as an example of a good character who wasn't just there for sex appeal. The rebuke was that she is now more sexy, and that's a bad thing. As if being more sexy negates all of the positive traits about her character.

It suggests to me the idea that a woman cannot be taken seriously if she is also sexually attractive, and that is something I find pretty offensive.

And what's this about Bioshock: Infinite's creator intending to make it for the "DudeBro" crowd?

A misinterpretation made to sound like it had anything to do with gender.

Basically people asked why Bioshock Infinite cover art had a clichéd grizzled male protagonist staring off into the distance, when the game is not just another shooter. Ken Levine said that the cover doesn't need to appeal to the people who are already into the game, as people who like the series are not using the cover as a means of deciding whether to get it.

The cover is meant to advertise to people who may not have heard of it. People who don't follow games like the people on here do, and will walk into a game store, pick up the boxes of games that catch their eye, and then flip them over to find out more info on the back.

That's why the cover is the way that it is. He wanted to appeal to the general action/shooter crowd who might otherwise never have heard of Bioshock. So copying the kind of cover you typically see on a military shooter such as Battlefield is probably a smart way to go about it.

People are then using that as a "Having a woman on the box will scare men off!" when the reason was purely to try and appeal to the kind of person who plays games like COD. It's not that it might scare them off, it's that it's not effective marketing.