Jimquisition: Objectification And... Men?

[Paradoxrifts]

And yeah, people just like you are, again, always bitching about Hollywood film being created by and for a predominately male audience. So you might want to watch your six for friendly fire on that one.

You might want to check your history cuz I don't think I've heard that being said since the 80's. These days it's all "A black guy can't play the Human Torch, that'll ruin the lore!"

No, they're pretty much always bitching about it. Never stopped. You should look it up, assuming of course that your 'bleeding liberal heart' could possibly shoulder anymore burdens then the one that you're clearly carrying for the video game industry.

And I'm officially on record as being against the directors of superhero movies changing damn near any element of canon from the original source material. Unless I happen to like the change, in which case I never doubted their epic vision for even a moment.

Idris Alba got two thumbs up from me after I saw Thor. He made an epic space alien viking.

 

[Sepko]

You might want to check your history cuz I don't think I've heard that being said since the 80's. These days it's all "A black guy can't play the Human Torch, that'll ruin the lore!"

No, they're pretty much always bitching about it. Never stopped. You should look it up, assuming of course that your 'bleeding liberal heart' could possibly shoulder anymore burdens then the one that you're clearly carrying for the video game industry.

And I'm officially on record as being against the directors of superhero movies changing damn near any element of canon from the original source material. Unless I happen to like the change, in which case I never doubted their epic vision for even a moment.

Idris Alba got two thumbs up from me after I saw Thor. He made an epic space alien viking.

I'll reiterate: I don't think I've recently heard that being said in any substantially important way since the 80's Hollywood's pretty much got the whole lady-man advertising thing downpat. Gaming's still got a way to go with that.

Also Idris Alba was fucking boss

 

[generals3]

Because in this context the make up of the group is irrelevant. This is me not caring about the preferences of other consumers. Poor, rich, male, female, hippies, muslims, christians, idc what the make up is, all i want is the market to please me.

Well at least you're a douchebag to everyone in equal amounts. I suppose that deserves a medal from someone.

I'm not a communist, i don't advocate equal privileges.

Not even for the genders? How very sad. Meanwhile, the rest of us in not-horrible-person land will be trying our darndest to help make change. You're right, you don't have an obligation to speak up, but don't act like being indifferent makes you special in some way, because it just makes you look like an asshole. And if that's how you want to roll, fine, have fun, we won't miss you. You can have all the games that cater just to you personally and only to you.

Yeah i know it's sad that i'm not a sexist. I'm sorry for being a douchebag who lobbies for his preferences like the vast majority of consumers and that i don't make a sexist exception for women. I don't expect other gamers to lobby for my preferences and i shouldn't be expected to do it for others.

Being indifferent shouldn't make me special but you seem hell bent into claiming it does. You have thrown quite a few insults my way because i act equally indifferent towards everybody's preferences instead of considering women as special snowflakes. If anything i'm trying to point out how your sexist vision makes you special.

I'm actually still baffled by this concept that just because the group on the other side consists of females i should act differently. Maybe i just took that whole emancipation thing too seriously.

 

[Sepko]

I'm not a communist, i don't advocate equal privileges.

Not even for the genders? How very sad. Meanwhile, the rest of us in not-horrible-person land will be trying our darndest to help make change. You're right, you don't have an obligation to speak up, but don't act like being indifferent makes you special in some way, because it just makes you look like an asshole. And if that's how you want to roll, fine, have fun, we won't miss you. You can have all the games that cater just to you personally and only to you.

Yeah i know it's sad that i'm not a sexist. I'm sorry for being a douchebag who lobbies for his preferences like the vast majority of consumers and don't make a sexist exception for women. I don't expect other gamers to lobby for my preferences and i shouldn't be expected to do it for others.

Being indifferent shouldn't make me special but you seem hell bent into claiming it does. You have thrown quite a few insults my way because i act equally indifferent towards everybody's preferences instead of considering women as special snowflakes.

I'm actually still baffled by this concept that just because the group on the other side consists of females i should act differently.

So asking the game industry to treat the women-folk a little nicer is somehow "a sexist exception for women"? On what planet exactly, cuz I don't believe Earth people make ridiculous statements like that.

I don't expect other gamers to lobby for my preferences and i shouldn't be expected to do it for others.

Ok, fine, don't, doesn't mean other people won't do it. Don't really have much to go on with your preferences anyway with your Civ and MSG and WoW and multiplayer shooters. Real diverse, highly demanding for your satisfaction.

You have thrown quite a few insults my way because i act equally indifferent towards everybody's preferences instead of considering women as special snowflakes.

Well now that I know you're just an equally indifferent asshole to everything that doesn't concern you and your bubble of personal satisfaction, I'm failing to see why I should continue arguing with you. Your rather bleak and useless view on what's being discussed on this thread isn't exactly helpful, and it's taken, what, 5 hours to figure that it wasn't even worth being argumentative towards you because you're just an equally indifferent asshole to everything that doesn't concern you and your bubble of personal satisfaction. I hope that works out, especially if you get a girlfriend, I'd like to set a timer to see how long it takes before she walks out because you asked her why something she wants to do should concern you.

 

[Lymond]

An actual example of men being objectified might be useful by adding a little context to this discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYkwziTrv5o


If this were the norm and men asked to be shown with a little bit more dignity, I'm sure we could all agree that they might have a point.

 

[generals3]

So asking the game industry to treat the women-folk a little nicer is somehow "a sexist exception for women"? On what planet exactly, cuz I don't believe Earth people make ridiculous statements like that.

It is if it is only expected to be done for them. If i can try to lobby for a harder WoW despite all those who may not like it without being an asshole, than why should i give special attention to the needs of female gamers? Why is a gamer expected to suddenly act selflessly towards female gamers while we're known to be a selfish bunch of twats who complain and flame on gaming forums when there are things we don't like. No really go look at the forums of games, see how altruistic we are. See how many people go like "I think it's a good thing WoW became so easy despite me not liking it because casual players like it". Forums are usually filled with people flinging poo at each other. Even this one. Look at topics about EA and tell me how much this forum cares about all those costumers who like EA.

And actually, ironically, you're doing it yourself right now as well. You seem to think that making more female oriented games would make things better and lobby for it. Regardless of what other gamers may think.

Well now that I know you're just an equally indifferent asshole to everything doesn't concern you and your bubble of personal satisfaction, I'm failing to see why I should continue arguing with you. Your rather bleak and useless view on what's being discussed on this thread isn't exactly helpful, and it's taken, what, 5 hours to figure that it wasn't even worth being argumentative towards you because you're just an equally indifferent asshole to everything doesn't concern you and your bubble of personal satisfaction. I hope that works out, especially if you get a girlfriend, I'd like to set a timer to see how long it takes before she walks out because you asked her why something she wants to do should concern you.

Well, why what she wants to do would concern me is quite obvious. However what female gamer 2381257 wants... Well i don't see it. Unless she's going to somehow make my life better by being given a game she likes i don't see it. Her gaming needs being satisfied worry me just about as much as your car desires being met.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

I'm not a communist, i don't advocate equal privileges.

Not even for the genders? How very sad. Meanwhile, the rest of us in not-horrible-person land will be trying our darndest to help make change. You're right, you don't have an obligation to speak up, but don't act like being indifferent makes you special in some way, because it just makes you look like an asshole. And if that's how you want to roll, fine, have fun, we won't miss you. You can have all the games that cater just to you personally and only to you.

Yeah i know it's sad that i'm not a sexist. I'm sorry for being a douchebag who lobbies for his preferences like the vast majority of consumers and don't make a sexist exception for women. I don't expect other gamers to lobby for my preferences and i shouldn't be expected to do it for others.

Being indifferent shouldn't make me special but you seem hell bent into claiming it does. You have thrown quite a few insults my way because i act equally indifferent towards everybody's preferences instead of considering women as special snowflakes.

I'm actually still baffled by this concept that just because the group on the other side consists of females i should act differently.

So asking the game industry to treat the women-folk a little nicer is somehow "a sexist exception for women"? On what planet exactly, cuz I don't believe Earth people make ridiculous statements like that.

I don't expect other gamers to lobby for my preferences and i shouldn't be expected to do it for others.

Ok, fine, don't, doesn't mean other people won't do it. Don't really have much to go on with your preferences anyway with your Civ and MSG and WoW and multiplayer shooters. Real diverse, highly demanding for your satisfaction.

You have thrown quite a few insults my way because i act equally indifferent towards everybody's preferences instead of considering women as special snowflakes.

Well now that I know you're just an equally indifferent asshole to everything that doesn't concern you and your bubble of personal satisfaction, I'm failing to see why I should continue arguing with you. Your rather bleak and useless view on what's being discussed on this thread isn't exactly helpful, and it's taken, what, 5 hours to figure that it wasn't even worth being argumentative towards you because you're just an equally indifferent asshole to everything that doesn't concern you and your bubble of personal satisfaction. I hope that works out, especially if you get a girlfriend, I'd like to set a timer to see how long it takes before she walks out because you asked her why something she wants to do should concern you.

I'm skeptical as to whether anything anyone has said in the entire thread can fairly be called "helpful".

Why would you possibly think this post was a good idea? Granted, last guy who insulted me did it twice and got 2 warnings, whatever the hell that means... Doesn't mean you should push your luck too.

Exercise some good-judgement, why not?

 

[Sepko]

I'm skeptical as to whether anything anyone has said in the entire thread can fairly be called "helpful".

Why would you possibly think this post was a good idea? Granted, last guy who insulted me did it twice and got 2 warnings, whatever the hell that means... Doesn't mean you should push your luck too.

Exercise some good-judgement, why not?

Yeah nah I got out just then. I'm usually a bit more fluid with my insults so maybe I just got past it or something, but yeah thanks for the tip.
Thanks, Sexual Harrassment Panda! *jingle*
(couldn't resist)

 

[generals3]

I bid thee farewell, Equally Indifferent Asshole to Everything That Doesn't Concern You and Your Bubble of Personal Satisfaction, may you die alone, surrounded by all the games you lobbied for yourself

Now now, how is that supposed to somehow be insulting. Obviously dying alone would be awesome, all i need is my bubble of personal satisfaction. And unfortunately my lobbying isn't working that well, I need more altruistic people like you on the casual players' side to lobby for more difficult games they don't like. Also don't forget to tell the gaming industry that RTS's need more attention, we RTS fans aren't being treated nicely either. (I simply hope that you saw what I did there and maybe you'll someday realize that being blindly idealistic and insulting people who aren't won't get you anywhere)

*selfish asshole out*

 

[Sepko]

I bid thee farewell, Equally Indifferent Asshole to Everything That Doesn't Concern You and Your Bubble of Personal Satisfaction, may you die alone, surrounded by all the games you lobbied for yourself

Now now, how is that supposed to somehow be insulting. Obviously dying alone would be awesome, all i need is my bubble of personal satisfaction. And unfortunately my lobbying isn't working that well, I need more altruistic people like you on the casual players' side to lobby for more difficult games they don't like. Also don't forget to tell the gaming industry that RTS's need more attention, we RTS fans aren't being treated nicely either. (I simply hope that you saw what I did there and maybe you'll someday realize that being blindly idealistic and insulting people who aren't won't get you anywhere)

*selfish asshole out*

Difference being, had you been a friend I totally would've helped you out, except you're not a friend, you're an ass. An immense one. Your indifference to everything makes me want to choke a puppy, but instead I just won't lobby for your stupid crap, because you're an ass. An immense one. And that's fine, shows I have people-feelings and principles.
*cut*

 

[TAdamson]

snip

snip

So creating something that someone likes is passive exclusion? Because of the fact that someone else might not "like" it? If that is the case I would like to create a list things I'm passively excluded from but I don't want to crash the forum listing it all.
This idea of passive exclusion also seems to say that people are excluding them selves based on personal taste, not being passively excluded by a game. We usually call this personal choice not passive exclusion.

If using the word entitlement is weasely and inappropriate what can be said for the term passive exclusion? As long as nobody claims a right or privilege to be provided with changes to games ill stop using the term entitled but only if people don't use a ridiculous term like passively excluded.

Of course creating something that some people like and that others don't is not exclusion. But the people who don't enjoy that product are passively excluded when nothing is created to appeal to that other audience. It's like inviting a bunch of Muslims and Jews and vegetarians around and only serving pork buns. They could eat... Nothing "real" is stopping them. Except in this case we are talking about around 50% of the population.

This isn't the fault of any single game or genre of game but a problem of culture across the entire medium. It's not that Dragon's Crown of DoA shouldn't exist it'd just be nice to have more of something that balances them.

Nobody has a "right" to anything apart from hopefully basic civil rights. But we definitely have a right to say "there should be". (ie There should be better female characters. That is not entitlement. Entitlement implies rights and the use of it here suggests that people who would like gaming to be more properly mature are somehow grasping for rights that they of course do not have.

 

[generals3]

Difference being, had you been a friend I totally would've helped you out, except you're not a friend, you're an ass. An immense one. Your indifference to everything makes me want to choke a puppy, but instead I just won't lobby for your stupid crap, because you're an ass. An immense one. And that's fine, shows I have people-feelings and principles.
*cut*

Ok, i just had to come back to point out the irony. I guess i'm an asshole for not considering people i don't know and probably will never interact with me as not being my friends.

 

[generals3]

Of course creating something that some people like and that others don't is not exclusion. But the people who don't enjoy that product are passively excluded when nothing is created to appeal to that other audience. It's like inviting a bunch of Muslims and Jews and vegetarians around and only serving pork buns. They could eat... Nothing "real" is stopping them. Except in this case we are talking about around 50% of the population.

This isn't the fault of any single game or genre of game but a problem of culture across the entire medium. It's not that Dragon's Crown of DoA shouldn't exist it'd just be nice to have more of something that balances them.

Nobody has a "right" to anything apart from hopefully basic civil rights. But we definitely have a right to say "there should be". (ie There should be better female characters. That is not entitlement. Entitlement implies rights and the use of it here suggests that people who would like gaming to be more properly mature are somehow grasping for rights that they of course do not have.

But here's an important point. The gaming industry isn't run by one corporation. So who's the one actually excluding anybody? Every company is trying to make money and trying to make what they think sells the most, that seems to make sense. What if the vast majority of them think that selling male-centric content does that? Who's wrong than? What if hundreds of people were organizing parties and most thought pork would be the most liked meat? Is there something wrong with that? Now you can say that they should maybe think of those who don't like pork. But that's where the argument should end, shouldn't it? (and in most cases it doesn't end there unfortunately, it becomes a "let's try to shame and guilt the industry the most we possibly can"-fest)

 

[Sepko]

Difference being, had you been a friend I totally would've helped you out, except you're not a friend, you're an ass. An immense one. Your indifference to everything makes me want to choke a puppy, but instead I just won't lobby for your stupid crap, because you're an ass. An immense one. And that's fine, shows I have people-feelings and principles.
*cut*

Ok, i just had to come back to point out the irony. I guess i'm an asshole for not considering people i don't know and probably will never interact with me as not being my friends.

A friend to the cause, komrade!

 

[Chemical Alia]

So with proper money management we can have games that already cater to boys, and those weird pink things that allegedly cater to girls, and those that *le gasp* cater to both! What a tremendously outrageous notion.

No way, it's totally impossible to make characters that men and women can both enjoy and find cool! Better stop with that line of reasoning fast, or the next thing you know we'll have to start being clever and insightful about how we approach this kind of stuff and that's just way too much to ask of people who do this for a living.

 

[ferrishthefish]

Objectification is the reduction of a person to an object.

Let me emphasize the word that everybody seems to have forgotten:

Objectification is the reduction of a PERSON to an object.

PERSON.

Kratos is not a person. He is lines of code. He is an object created for my entertainment (and yours, if you like God of War games), and is therefore very much a "thing" I want to "own." If I hop on Amazon right now, I can purchase the collector's edition of him for $80 + s&h. If I buy every GoW game, I will possess every line of code that can possible be identified as Kratos and will therefore possess HIM in a way that allows me to act out my power fantasies and satisfy my entertainment cravings without ever letting Kratos "initiate" a session or have any say in our player-to-character relationship.

Is buying and possessing a person wrong? Yes.

Is buying and possessing Kratos wrong? No. Why? Because Kratos is NOT a person. He does not exist outside code embedded in a disk or saved in a hard drive. If you disagree, feel free to sue Sony for human trafficking (demigod trafficking?).



With the definition of objectification in mind--and paying SPECIAL attention to the word "PERSON"--Jim's video is simply an assertion that female gamers aren't getting the entertainment they desire out of the video game industry, which is a problem but is a far fucking cry from the dehumanization of the entire gender. Believe it or not, video games are not responsible for prostitution, sex trade, domestic violence, rape, the glass ceiling, the wage gap, etc., so please stop making videos to suggest so.

 

[TAdamson]

snip

But here's an important point. The gaming industry isn't run by one corporation. So who's the one actually excluding anybody? Every company is trying to make money and trying to make what they think sells the most, that seems to make sense. What if the vast majority of them think that selling male-centric content does that? Who's wrong than? What if hundreds of people were organizing parties and most thought pork would be the most liked meat? Is there something wrong with that? Now you can say that they should maybe think of those who don't like pork. But that's where the argument should end, shouldn't it? (and in most cases it doesn't end there unfortunately, it becomes a "let's try to shame and guilt the industry the most we possibly can"-fest)

Well that just it isn't it. It's not just one company. It's a culture problem. The perception, probably true, that games are played primarily by 12 to 25 year old males.

But that's a chicken and egg problem. Are guys, being inherently less social, naturally more likely to play games thus resulting in culture/content that is more male-centric? Or are games played mostly by guys because women are put off by the culture/content of games?

I don't have a real problem with, as you put it, the "let's try to shame and guilt the industry the most we possibly can"-fest, mostly because the industry is made up of companies and you can't really hurt their feelings. But I wouldn't call it shaming. It's more about provoking discussion.

 

[Westaway]

It's like you don't even understand what kind of society we live in. I'll give you a tip. It's a late capitalist society. Meaning, anything, and everything, will be objectified. Complaining about objectification in a capitalist society is pointless.

 

[Professor James]

Off Topic but how many times has he used that DOA beach volleyball clip?

 

[Aardvaarkman]

You're asking that question to someone on the internet? I'm not out to change the world, I can't make a difference.

Point One: I never said it didn't matter.

True, but you did say it was getting too much attention, and then contradicted yourself by saying that you can't make a difference by posting on the internet. So, which is it? Either the internet is ineffective, therefore it doesn't matter if this is getting attention on these boards, or the internet is effective at drawing attention to issues. You can't really have it both ways.

Point Two: The issues I mentioned are slowly killing the notion quality in the industry and the fact that you no longer own what you pay for, you just have a license to use it. I'm going to be frank and say that if someone is self-harming and having psychological issues over the way women are depicted in video games then they need a lesson about reality and fiction and what people are like in the real world. You don't see me upset that I'm not two metres tall with pecs of steel, because I know it's a total fantasy an idealisation.

OK, so the "notion of quality in the industry" is more important than harm to actual people?

I think you might see your latter point differently if you actually were female. Most men don't have to deal with constant leering and sexual attention every single day. For many women, the ways genders are portrayed in games [strong]is[/strong] basically an extension of reality. It's not fiction to be objectified as a woman, it's incredibly common. As a male, you usually aren't being constantly stared at and compared to some ideal male warrior. But women [strong]are[/strong] being constantly stared at and compared to supermodels and idealized game characters.