Jimquisition: Objectification And... Men?

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

The industry shouldn't have to be guilt into it. It should see the opportunity on it's own and invest a bit into it. While I'll call 50% bs, It's not hard to tell that their are female gamers and what games they play and how much. Hell why are companies looking into public data like trophies and achievements and gamer profiles to profile not just females but all gamers better. And finally just I don't know ask female gamers what they'd like to see more in games, not guys assuming what females want in games.

Like Xcom enemy unknown, it was an untapped market and they didn't have to throw much money at it and because of it the sales the game had it made a profit. It should be the same for a "female" orientated game. Make a grade B games, don't spend a lot, make it more female but don't scare away the male audience also, *Market it* and see if it sells. See if the fans come out of the wood work to buy it. When companies are throwing money in the fire making games like Star trek and Aliens:CM

Finally making the "other end objectification" isn't going to solve anything. After reading a lot of this thread and if you put together what people are seeming to think female gamers want ((Strong female lead, not afraid to be openly sexual and pursue male characters, males objectified in her eyes, Doing all the work, rescuing and what not)) It really seems what this thread thinks the perfect female gamer game is a hardcore female erotica game... Point missed. Find a better way to find out what people ACTUALLY want.

I like this idea. I think one of the biggest problems of the objectification of omen is a general deterioration of female protagonists and diverse characters to begin with. But the problem is, given that game design is a fairly male orientated arena are you actually going to get a game that lives up to an effective female notion of beauty, appeal and charm?

I don't like this idea of 'making women like one of the men, that will solve it' ... because it doesn't really address the problem at all. Women face a very different social environment, and it's not simply a case of looking to publications such as Bazaar or Marie Claire to find your inspiration. Otherwise we're trading one extreme for another, where to be a model and an ideal of feminine beauty you have to be 5'10-6', 64 kilos and less, above 17 but under 29. Otherwise you are going to end up with just as unappealing characters as many of them are now.

Let's say you were going to make a historical Adventure/rpg ... I would pay money to play a game centred on a woman in a deeply unhappy marriage, bound by custom in 18th century Batavia. Your husband constantly taking the credit for your brilliant investment and management behind the scenes as you struggle to enact plans to have both he and his brother eliminated in an 'accident' so that you could inherit what rightfully belongs to you. As you slowly, through the course of the game, attempt to build alliances in your "husband's" trading house. Trying to secretly manage a smooth transition into power, before he and his immediate family realise your subterfuge.

If we want to show women as courageous, bold, decisive characters it would be nice to have characters defend themselves against a world of inequity. Not simply have a male/female choices because then you'e just offering the same experience without deviance. And whilst that might be fine up to a point, but it's not exactly communicating anything meaningful or diversifying the role of women in videogames.

I wouldn't mind either portrayal of women, but I think if we want to have standout female protagonists in games, it's about time that we show the historical mistreatment of women ... muddy our hands a little by digging into some very real examples of what could be epic storylines for videogames. Movies do it, books do it ... why can't we take a step back a bit and rationalize that there are women in the world, right now, living desperate and extraordinary lives that are worthy of being examined further through an interactive medium?

 

[TAdamson]

snip

Almost like its a sea of Developers/Publishers out there that most likely hear and see what people are asking for and either don't want to take the risk of something new or figure someone else will do it, kinda punting the football around.

On the other side how does it help the cause when games from these same developers are attacked for making something, either a character choice or a whole game design, that is clearly designed by or for a certain groups taste, in most cases men? I'm sure most of this comes from the most extreme of the group but it results in a defensive response from a lot of male gamers, one of those defensive responses is what this weeks Jimquisition was about.

So it leaves me to question how attacking a game to the point of causing male gamers to defensively try to justify the existence of the game is a way of asking the industry for better representation of women. I hear from mostly level headed people that all seem to want the same thing and I'm on board with it but attacking games or game characters that were clearly meant to stimulate the male heterosexual population just comes off as a way of saying those games or character should not exist and men should not be allowed have them. (some people actually do believe this btw)

Saying "this game is a sexist piece of shit" and saying "this game is clearly for men, I wish we had games that were for everyone" is not the same thing. The difference is destructive versus constructive dialog.

It's a final straw thing for some people. I think some games for men should be a "sexist piece of shit". Maxim exists for a reason. But Maxim is "sexist piece of shit" demographic chasing. Most games are not specifically "sexist piece of shit" chasing, they just happen to ignore the female demographic, and then the game equivalent of Maxim is targeted due to frustration.


Dead or Alive is what it is and I think most people accept that but it's a good example of how stupid a demographic that they're targeting

Dragons Crown I don't really have a problem with....

----- Apart from the blank emotionless child faces on the female characters. Seriously... Tits, ass and inappropriate clothing: Fine...... Having the same very-teen, anime, emotionally-blank, face on every female character: Makes me frown because its a little dehumanising.-----

I'm annoyed that Soul Calibur went from simply having sexy characters to going for absurd boob-physix titillation.

I'm annoyed that female protagonists are verboten.

I'm annoyed that there isn't the game version of Ellen Ripley or Hermione Granger or Arya Stark.

So it's easy to point to DoA or Dragon's Crown and ask why so much of this "sexist piece of shit" exists and why more interesting, realistic female characters don't exist.

 

[OldNewNewOld]

But Jimbo, why did you ignore pretty much every JRPG character in existence?
Are the twinky half naked, emotional guys really a power fantasy?

And objectification isn't a problem at all. You're looking to much into nothing.

When a woman in a game is objectified, it's that woman in that game that's being objectified. It has no implication in real life. Same would be the case with a man, black, Asian, straight, gay, bi, trans... no matter how much they look like real people, they are nothing more than polygons.

And form a business standpoint, it makes no sense to listen to you guys. If a game is aimed at horny teenager (like pretty much every game with objectified women is), it makes no sense to listen to a demographic that won't buy the game in the first place, or the amount of new costumer wouldn't be big enough to compensate for the lost costumer.

Rather than changing the existing games, women should try to get developer to pander to them.

But that's just my opinion. My only problem is that objectification of character in games is... how should I say it... it's like objectification of the targeted audience. If every game targeted at men has naked chicks, what that does say about the men? That they can't think with anything besides their dick? That men can't think of anything besides sex?
Again, I don't have a problem with the objectification of the character in games because for me, they don't represent the real world. They are just polygons.
However, the "objectification" (I honestly don't know what word to use here, maybe generalization?) of the targeted audience is a problem for me because it objectifies/generalizes real people, in fact, ~49% of the world population.

Should find a flame shield.

 

[generals3]

I doubt you'll find many BMW drivers lobbying for BMW to create cheaper cars to allow poorer people to have access to BMW awesomeness.

Are you serious? Do you really think that BMW drivers don't want their BMWs to cost less? I'd say the vast majority of them would like cheaper BMWs so they'd have more money to spend on other things. Only a very small minority of BMW drivers are filthy-rich enough to not care about price. After all, BMW owners are typically in the middle-class.

And yes, I'd say that plenty of BMW owners would want BMW ownership to be more widespread. Because they are well-engineered and have high safety standards. I'd guess most BMW owners also have families, so having more people driving BMWs would mean that their children and other family members would be more protected from being injured or killed by car accidents. Plus having more nice cars on the roads just makes for a more pleasant urban environment than having heaping piles of junk everywhere.

Whether or not they would want the price reduced for themselves or family is irrelevant to the argument. And don't forget it's a semi-luxurious car which wouldn't confer the status to the drivers it does now if they were as cheap as Micras. Many would see their utility they get from the car reduced if everyone drove them around. And I have yet to hear any BMW driver complain about the price for altruistic reasons. You may enlighten me with the lobbyists if you wish but i doubt they exist.

The fact women have few leading roles would be irrelevant to the objectification case. You can't have every single group being given a leading role in a single game.

Who said they should all be protagonists in any single game? I'm pretty sure the conversation is about games in general.

If they don't have to be in any single game than how can you make an accusation if most games decide to not make that choice for monetary reasons? You know if one game doesn't do anything wrong by not having a female protagonist how can 100 games do anything wrong by not having a female protagonist?

You can't sum up 100 non-problematic games and suddenly have a problematic game industry. You need to prove there is a problem in the elements you summed up if you want to prove the group of elements has a problem.

 

[ferrishthefish]

Well, yes I do think female gamers would enjoy that. Straight women tend to enjoy seeing attractive, half naked men. I mean, have you seen some of the fan art the women are making of just the male LIs. Hell, there is this joeblack guy on deviant art posting 3D models of the guys shirtless on motorcycles, just for the fangirls. With the introduction of drell, having few of them dancing on some tables would have been amazing.

Attractive, half-naked men are not the same as male strippers. You go to the beach to see one; you go to the male strip joint to shove Lincolns in the other's junk (I think that's how it works, not sure). I'm also willing to bet that some male strippers are UNattractive, half-naked men, potentially trying to work their way through space school. Even the male strippers that ARE attractive have a completely different power structure than attractive, half-naked non-stripper men--i.e., total dependency as opposed to confident power. Incidentally, I'd also be willing to bet that confident, powerful men are more attractive to the average female than dependent, and therefore weak, men. I've heard of some studies on it that I won't bother looking up atm.

(I'd try to argue that attractive, half-naked women are not the same as female strippers for symmetry's sake, but I enjoy my current status of not being a target.)

I'm basically trying to suggest that average female sexual tastes might not be mirror images of average male sexual tastes, so appealing equally to male and female sexual tastes might not be as simple as you think. I'm not saying there's equal attention paid to female sexual tastes in games, because the industry's own behavior disproves that, but you can't just point to asymmetry and try to equate it to inequality. They are not the same.

And again, for the sake of Mass Effect's own lore, the asari are a sexually open race who find everyone else not their species sexually attractive. You would think with all their power and influence in the galaxy, they would have strip clubs set up for their viewing pleasure, which would mean there should be some male strippers shaking their asses at the bars.

Just because something is possible, sensible, or even directly implied by the framework of the story does not mean the developer will or ought to include it. You know the recent Batman movies, which have been commercial and critical successes despite having a plot hole the size of Jupiter, specifically that Batman and Alfred are able to single-handedly foil the efforts cave moisture and bat shit and their fantastic ability to destroy all of Batman's very expensive electronics? Yeah, they chose to leave that part out despite it being a direct consequence of housing such a huge operation in a fucking cave because it would have been stupid to include something that does not appeal to any audience and, in fact, reduces the appeal to the existing audience(s). People like to see Batman kick ass with futuristic and non-destroyed technology, and without being covered in guano.

I hate to have to use this line, but video games are ENTERTAINMENT. It's not worth the time and effort to produce entertainment (which costs money) if it won't be more appealing than real life (which is essentially free). In other words, it's about appeal, not about making sense. And since male strippers would most likely reduce the appeal to young men (most likely straight), Bioware understandably would require some proof that male strippers would produce enough appeal to the female or gay audience to make up for the reduced appeal to straight males, regardless of how much sense male strippers make in the context of the story.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

But Jimbo, why did you ignore pretty much every JRPG character in existence?
Are the twinky half naked, emotional guys really a power fantasy?

And objectification isn't a problem at all. You're looking to much into nothing.

When a woman in a game is objectified, it's that woman in that game that's being objectified. It has no implication in real life. Same would be the case with a man, black, Asian, straight, gay, bi, trans... no matter how much they look like real people, they are nothing more than polygons.

And form a business standpoint, it makes no sense to listen to you guys. If a game is aimed at horny teenager (like pretty much every game with objectified women is), it makes no sense to listen to a demographic that won't buy the game in the first place, or the amount of new costumer wouldn't be big enough to compensate for the lost costumer.

Rather than changing the existing games, women should try to get developer to pander to them.

But that's just my opinion. My only problem is that objectification of character in games is... how should I say it... it's like objectification of the targeted audience. If every game targeted at men has naked chicks, what that does say about the men? That they can't think with anything besides their dick? That men can't think of anything besides sex?
Again, I don't have a problem with the objectification of the character in games because for me, they don't represent the real world. They are just polygons.
However, the "objectification" (I honestly don't know what word to use here, maybe generalization?) of the targeted audience is a problem for me because it objectifies/generalizes real people, in fact, ~49% of the world population.

Should find a flame shield.

Considering the half naked JRPG protagonists are usually wielding impossible weapons as big as they are, are performing massive damage to enemies that dwarf them, have a destiny only they can meet, AND have a princess to save, and/or a female to be their love interest, yeah, they are power trips all the same. Just in a somewhat more realistic less steroid filled package. Honestly, there's not a huge diffirence between them and western guys like Kratos, and War save a hundred lbs of muscle.

I agree game companies know their market, and cater to them. Sex sells. Honestly, I'm a bit of a fan of sex selling, and I'm not ashamed to say it as it doesn't really make or break a game for me. Massive deviation from teh formula could be problematic. But what about more minor deviations that aren't as few as twice a year among every company?

Personally, I don't care about what amount of the sex sells mantra goes into the game so long as the protagonist is female/gender select, and has some quality to the game.
I mean, bayonetta, for instance. She's a double edged sword. Sex sells to a high degree, but some women find her to be the power trip. Bayonetta owns who she is, and her sexuality. She isn't sexy for no reason at all, basically unlike like more than a few scantily clad fighting women.

Still, the outright denial of female protagonists (Jim never says which companies do this, and they'd prolly get blacklisted by me in a heartbeat 'til they changed. ), and things standing in their way, from the story I read about a guy at capcom getting stonewalled from wanting a female lead (which I guess was isolated since Capcom is distributing Remember me), to the fighting the makers of Remember Me had to put up with to even get someone to help with getting the game out there, to Naughty Dog having to fight to keep the little girl from "Last of Us" on the cover, to Bioshock getting a Dudebro cover alternative (I guess it isn't as harmful since it's not like the game got changed), female protagonist games getting next to zero advertisement, and other disheartening BS like that happening? In 2013?
Honestly, you can't expect people to just watch it happen, can you? We certainly aren't regardless of your answer. Provide all the excuses you want, but that won't stop topics like this for certain since you're not the first, or last trying to explain away the topic with these same excuses.
Frankly the practice is disgusting to an extreme to me, both in defending the practice, and to a greater degree, the practice itself.

This topic will not go away until there's no examples of this topic to talk about no matter what is said, bluntly.

The problem with finding a company to cater to female gamers is, who, exactly do women turn to? What company has the balls big enough to do this? And make some decent games on top of that? It's not like a want ad can be taken out.

Honestly, my plan is to try my best to support what ever game comes out that has quality, and a female protagonist/gender select. Hopefully my tiny hands pushing against the dudebro tide, along with, hopefully, many others, will be enough to make them realize that a good character, regardless of gender, can sell.

Who ever decides to take on the niche more might find themselves in a world of money as the niche may not be as small as they think it is. I could be wrong though. It's unexplored territory with a generation or two entrenched in console generations.

If you have a problem with how males as consumers are objectified, well, like you said, sex sells, basically. They cater to it coz guys with hormones are hard pressed to help themselves. Those that can control themselves? The sex sells games saturate the maket. Good luck buying one that doesn't tart up their characters, male and female alike to appeal to power trips.

And honestly, I think you're looking at objectification from the wrong angle. it's not the sexualized objectivity in it's entirity, it's how rare female protagonists are, as opposed to being shunted into roles where they are objectified by the narrative itself? Princess Zelda, Princess Peach, basically every woman you gotta save regardless of how sexy they are. I elaborate on this in a post not far back so I won't double down here.

 

[generals3]

Still, the outright denial of female protagonists (Jim never says which companies do this, and they'd prolly get blacklisted by me in a heartbeat 'til they changed. ), and things standing in their way, from the story I read about a guy at capcom getting stonewalled from wanting a female lead (which I guess was isolated since Capcom is distributing Remember me), to the fighting the makers of Remember Me had to put up with to even get someone to help with getting the game out there, to Naughty Dog having to fight to keep the little girl from "Last of Us" on the cover, to Bioshock getting a Dudebro cover alternative (I guess it isn't as harmful since it's not like the game got changed), female protagonist games getting next to zero advertisement, and other disheartening BS like that happening? In 2013?
Honestly, you can't expect people to just watch it happen, can you? We certainly aren't regardless of your answer. Provide all the excuses you want, but that won't stop topics like this for certain since you're not the first, or last trying to explain away the topic with these same excuses.
Frankly the practice is disgusting to an extreme to me, both in defending the practice, and to a greater degree, the practice itself.

WHy is it disheartening this happens in 2013? Marketing is marketing and will always be. If a company feels that putting a big marketing budget in a game is a waste of money than so be it. The date in which that happened seems rather irrelevant. And gender specific marketing is widespread, think of brands like Nivea slapping "for men" on their products for men or Coke Zero. You can say "but, 2013!" all you want but companies won't stop using marketing they think is the most efficient. if they are convinced that slapping a dudebro on the cover instead of a woman will generate more sales, there is nothing wrong with that. I'd say not doing it while thinking doing it would generate more sales would be extremely wrong.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Still, the outright denial of female protagonists (Jim never says which companies do this, and they'd prolly get blacklisted by me in a heartbeat 'til they changed. ), and things standing in their way, from the story I read about a guy at capcom getting stonewalled from wanting a female lead (which I guess was isolated since Capcom is distributing Remember me), to the fighting the makers of Remember Me had to put up with to even get someone to help with getting the game out there, to Naughty Dog having to fight to keep the little girl from "Last of Us" on the cover, to Bioshock getting a Dudebro cover alternative (I guess it isn't as harmful since it's not like the game got changed), female protagonist games getting next to zero advertisement, and other disheartening BS like that happening? In 2013?
Honestly, you can't expect people to just watch it happen, can you? We certainly aren't regardless of your answer. Provide all the excuses you want, but that won't stop topics like this for certain since you're not the first, or last trying to explain away the topic with these same excuses.
Frankly the practice is disgusting to an extreme to me, both in defending the practice, and to a greater degree, the practice itself.

WHy is it disheartening this happens in 2013? Marketing is marketing and will always be. If a company feels that putting a big marketing budget in a game is a waste of money than so be it. The date in which that happened seems rather irrelevant. And gender specific marketing is widespread, think of brands like Nivea slapping "for men" on their products for men or Coke Zero. You can say "but, 2013!" all you want but companies won't stop using marketing they think is the most efficient. if they are convinced that slapping a dudebro on the cover instead of a woman will generate more sales, there is nothing wrong with that. I'd say not doing it while thinking doing it would generate more sales would be extremely wrong.

I guess I'm just one of those weird optimists that wants to think that humanity is evolving socially. It probably will, but it'll prolly be decades in the future, or even a century since there'll likely have to be newblood for the gaming industry to change.

I'm not saying the game that dares break the mold and be more catered to women has to be their sole source of revenue. I'm just hoping they get made more now and then, and meet less resistance in the process.

Also there's women that grew up in the gaming generations. I had a woman ask me about a game and she was old enough to be my mom. Society is changing. Businesses that won't adapt might find them missing out.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

Whether or not they would want the price reduced for themselves or family is irrelevant to the argument. And don't forget it's a semi-luxurious car which wouldn't confer the status to the drivers it does now if they were as cheap as Micras

You assume that the majority of BMW owners buy BMWs to raise their "status," rather than simply wanting to buy a well-made vehicle. Perhaps you could provide some research demonstrating this?

If you have ever traveled in Europe, you'd know that BMWs aren't particularly exotic, they are fairly typical middle-class cars (depending on the model). People looking for status are more likely to drive Ferraris, Rolls Royces, Bentleys, Porches, or Bugattis. The majority of BMWs sold don't particularly convey high status, they are pretty normal cars.

If you'd like an example of BMW owners expressing the desire for more widespread BMW ownership, then I'll direct you to this podcast: http://neutral.fm

And I have yet to hear any BMW driver complain about the price for altruistic reasons.

Well, you just read me writing it. It may not be the same as hearing someone say it, but there it is. If more cars on the road were more like BMWs, then that would be a good thing. I don't feel superior because not everyone can afford one. It would be fantastic if more people drove them. It's not something that makes me feel insecure. They are very good cars - why wouldn't I want more people to drive such good cars? It would make the roads safer and more pleasant to drive on.

If they don't have to be in any single game than how can you make an accusation if most games decide to not make that choice for monetary reasons?

The "monetary reasons" are bullshit. If anything, the male gamer market is already saturated, and it would make more sense to appeal to more females, as they are a less-exploited market.

You know if one game doesn't do anything wrong by not having a female protagonist how can 100 games do anything wrong by not having a female protagonist?

It isn't just about the protagonist. It's also about having less stereotypical female characters in general.

You can't sum up 100 non-problematic games and suddenly have a problematic game industry. You need to prove there is a problem in the elements you summed up if you want to prove the group of elements has a problem.

I'm not talking about 100 non-problematic games. I'm talking about the majority of mainstream games being problematic when it comes to gender representation.

 

[Subscriptism]

You're asking that question to someone on the internet? I'm not out to change the world, I can't make a difference.

Point One: I never said it didn't matter.

True, but you did say it was getting too much attention, and then contradicted yourself by saying that you can't make a difference by posting on the internet. So, which is it? Either the internet is ineffective, therefore it doesn't matter if this is getting attention on these boards, or the internet is effective at drawing attention to issues. You can't really have it both ways.

Point Two: The issues I mentioned are slowly killing the notion quality in the industry and the fact that you no longer own what you pay for, you just have a license to use it. I'm going to be frank and say that if someone is self-harming and having psychological issues over the way women are depicted in video games then they need a lesson about reality and fiction and what people are like in the real world. You don't see me upset that I'm not two metres tall with pecs of steel, because I know it's a total fantasy an idealisation.

OK, so the "notion of quality in the industry" is more important than harm to actual people?

I think you might see your latter point differently if you actually were female. Most men don't have to deal with constant leering and sexual attention every single day. For many women, the ways genders are portrayed in games [strong]is[/strong] basically an extension of reality. It's not fiction to be objectified as a woman, it's incredibly common. As a male, you usually aren't being constantly stared at and compared to some ideal male warrior. But women [strong]are[/strong] being constantly stared at and compared to supermodels and idealized game characters.

Perhaps I might see it, however I can't personally nor do I know of any other male who can even remotely be described as constantly leering, nor do I personally know a single woman who has ever complained that they are being leered at 24/7. I just don't buy it.

 

[generals3]

Well, you just read me writing it. It may not be the same as hearing someone say it, but there it is. If more cars on the road were more like BMWs, then that would be a good thing. I don't feel superior because not everyone can afford one. It would be fantastic if more people drove them. It's not something that makes me feel insecure. They are very good cars - why wouldn't I want more people to drive such good cars? It would make the roads safer and more pleasant to drive on.

Which are two selfish reasons to want to spread BMW's. So my point stands.

If they don't have to be in any single game than how can you make an accusation if most games decide to not make that choice for monetary reasons?

The "monetary reasons" are bullshit. If anything, the male gamer market is already saturated, and it would make more sense to appeal to more females, as they are a less-exploited market.

You know if one game doesn't do anything wrong by not having a female protagonist how can 100 games do anything wrong by not having a female protagonist?

It isn't just about the protagonist. It's also about having less stereotypical female characters in general.

You can't sum up 100 non-problematic games and suddenly have a problematic game industry. You need to prove there is a problem in the elements you summed up if you want to prove the group of elements has a problem.

I'm not talking about 100 non-problematic games. I'm talking about the majority of mainstream games being problematic when it comes to gender representation.

And how are they problematic? And the monetary reasons are bullshit? So you have conducted market studies ? I'm sorry that I would put more faith in a marketing department of a big company which probably spend a lot of time studying the market than a random poster who probably only has his word to back up the claim it's not a monetary sound business practice. The fact it's less exploited doesn't mean it's more profitable, niche markets for example are usually de-facto less exploited but you won't see every big business venturing in them exactly because it's a niche market.
Gaming companies are run by people who want to make profit, not bro dudes who want to exclude women.

 

[NoeL]

Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?

Yet you never wondered how he shaves his face?

Anyway, I remember an episode of Lois and Clark where he shaved by reflecting his eye lasers with a mirror. I guess his skin is tougher than his hair, and the strength of his laser vision falls nicely between the two.

 

[Aikayai]

I'm getting tired of how poorly the community deals with these issues. Maybe in 50 years we'll come back to this topic and the problem will still be there. I feel for the women out there in the industry who want their voices heard only to be silenced by a community that can't take a sane pill for a day and realize that its a serious issue. By segregating people by gender, race or belief we belittle ourselves and that is something that EA or Activision is supposed to do for us. I believe that is something we can all agree on.

Admit there is a problem, then we can do something about it.

 

[Colt47]

Actually, I've always thought the reason they objectify women in video games is to combine aspects of the pornography industry into the general entertainment industry in a way that doesn't set off advocacy groups. Sex tends to sell and men are easier to target with sex based media than women due to a lower resistance to it at the target age groups (mid teens to early twenties for guys is especially volatile). Women tend to have their sex drive develop more evenly and reach their peak later, so the same tactic isn't as effective on them at the same point.

 

[PirateRose]

Well, yes I do think female gamers would enjoy that. Straight women tend to enjoy seeing attractive, half naked men. I mean, have you seen some of the fan art the women are making of just the male LIs. Hell, there is this joeblack guy on deviant art posting 3D models of the guys shirtless on motorcycles, just for the fangirls. With the introduction of drell, having few of them dancing on some tables would have been amazing.

Attractive, half-naked men are not the same as male strippers. You go to the beach to see one; you go to the male strip joint to shove Lincolns in the other's junk (I think that's how it works, not sure). I'm also willing to bet that some male strippers are UNattractive, half-naked men, potentially trying to work their way through space school. Even the male strippers that ARE attractive have a completely different power structure than attractive, half-naked non-stripper men--i.e., total dependency as opposed to confident power. Incidentally, I'd also be willing to bet that confident, powerful men are more attractive to the average female than dependent, and therefore weak, men. I've heard of some studies on it that I won't bother looking up atm.

(I'd try to argue that attractive, half-naked women are not the same as female strippers for symmetry's sake, but I enjoy my current status of not being a target.)

I'm basically trying to suggest that average female sexual tastes might not be mirror images of average male sexual tastes, so appealing equally to male and female sexual tastes might not be as simple as you think. I'm not saying there's equal attention paid to female sexual tastes in games, because the industry's own behavior disproves that, but you can't just point to asymmetry and try to equate it to inequality. They are not the same.

There is this movie, called Magic Mike. It is amazing, a box office hit, a thing created for women for ENTERTAINMENT purposes that involve mostly naked, attractive men dancing around and the major complaint was that they tried to put a lame romantic story into the movie. You should go see it. Actually go talk to a theater workers and ask how loud the women were howling over that movie. Also, The Full Monty touches on the subject matter. Then there are existing shows in Las Vegas, Chippendales, crowded with women howling at half naked men. Also, check out the bachelorette parties going on in recent years. A recent episode of Bones covered the male stripper thing, the good doctor expressed that it's becoming increasingly popular for women of younger generations to desire male strippers because they are gaining more sexual power in their lives. There are actual studies showing how women give male strippers more cash when they are ovulating.

The only difference between male strippers and female strippers is the gender. Otherwise, whatever people are sexually attracted to, they are going to find it sexy dancing around half naked and at peak appearance.

And again, for the sake of Mass Effect's own lore, the asari are a sexually open race who find everyone else not their species sexually attractive. You would think with all their power and influence in the galaxy, they would have strip clubs set up for their viewing pleasure, which would mean there should be some male strippers shaking their asses at the bars.

Just because something is possible, sensible, or even directly implied by the framework of the story does not mean the developer will or ought to include it. You know the recent Batman movies, which have been commercial and critical successes despite having a plot hole the size of Jupiter, specifically that Batman and Alfred are able to single-handedly foil the efforts cave moisture and bat shit and their fantastic ability to destroy all of Batman's very expensive electronics? Yeah, they chose to leave that part out despite it being a direct consequence of housing such a huge operation in a fucking cave because it would have been stupid to include something that does not appeal to any audience and, in fact, reduces the appeal to the existing audience(s). People like to see Batman kick ass with futuristic and non-destroyed technology, and without being covered in guano.

I hate to have to use this line, but video games are ENTERTAINMENT. It's not worth the time and effort to produce entertainment (which costs money) if it won't be more appealing than real life (which is essentially free). In other words, it's about appeal, not about making sense. And since male strippers would most likely reduce the appeal to young men (most likely straight), Bioware understandably would require some proof that male strippers would produce enough appeal to the female or gay audience to make up for the reduced appeal to straight males, regardless of how much sense male strippers make in the context of the story.

Well it didn't hurt Fallout New Vegas sales to have male prostitutes and male strippers. I haven't heard a single complaint from any man who has played the game about these dudes. It's as if they didn't care and were mature enough to realize male prostitutes and strippers exist without harming their straight sexualities. Even better, these characters weren't put in for a female audience, they were often gay and cat calling the male Courier. Female Courier got cat calls from guys, but only had female options and a robot to get laid with, Obsidian actually addressed homosexual needs before straight female needs. And I can understand, realistically, female Courier accidentally getting pregnant at a time like that would be bad. However, as you yourself state, video games are for entertainment purposes! Let's bend reality a little and let the female audience enjoy the idea of not being strapped down to the idea her uterus is a baby factory. After all, male courier isn't getting any of the female prostitutes pregnant.

 

[ShadowHamster]

You know, all these people saying "IT'S BEEN SAID BEFORE, JIM!" are really missing the point.

He made this responding to a popular argument from people who saw his previous videos. He even found a gentleman being reasonable rather than the common "F### YOU! GAMES ARR PURFICT! YOU DON'T KNOW, STOP BEING FEMINAZI! NOT EVN GURL LOL!" that it commonly comes in.

He addressed guys who feel let down by characters like Kratos, who make some men feel less since they are built like bricks and can just go do what they want. Tons of gamers are introverted guys with self-esteem issues, and I'm sure they get fed up with hearing how video games are objectifying women, because most guys like girls. Like talking to girls, getting to know them, finding out HOW they manage to smell good/look pretty, and they don't feel that should be bad.

And it isn't necessarily. What's bad is when you just want to own that nice pretty lady. When you want to play her like a puppet around your essence. Games are getting better about it(Bioshock: Infinite's twist definitely empowered the GIRLY GIRL character and turned everything around for example) but it's still a rare thing to see. I know that Aliens game by Gearbox sucked, but right off the bat I was confused and angered when I found out you couldn't play a girl character. IN fact they KILL the girl character right away so the story can be about the manly marines, because who would want to follow a girl character in an ALIENS title.

So Jim straight up explained, almost in baby words, why women in games are considered "objectified" while men are considered "idealized". Women are expected to be more mature, more intelligent, and yet...less...than men. They can't be sexual, but they have to be sexualized. They can't be singularly strong, and game devs are still not wanting to add in those "GIRL" characters, despite the interactive media market openning up to women more and more. It's a problem, not a problem that is emanating from the gamers who get upset hearing what a problem it is, but from the developers treating us like we are all 14. I'm personally sick of such attitudes, and don't think such messages are "oversaturated" until the problem is solved. If we stop talking about it, that doesn't mean it goes away.

 

[ShadowHamster]

Well, yes I do think female gamers would enjoy that. Straight women tend to enjoy seeing attractive, half naked men. I mean, have you seen some of the fan art the women are making of just the male LIs. Hell, there is this joeblack guy on deviant art posting 3D models of the guys shirtless on motorcycles, just for the fangirls. With the introduction of drell, having few of them dancing on some tables would have been amazing.

Attractive, half-naked men are not the same as male strippers. You go to the beach to see one; you go to the male strip joint to shove Lincolns in the other's junk (I think that's how it works, not sure). I'm also willing to bet that some male strippers are UNattractive, half-naked men, potentially trying to work their way through space school. Even the male strippers that ARE attractive have a completely different power structure than attractive, half-naked non-stripper men--i.e., total dependency as opposed to confident power. Incidentally, I'd also be willing to bet that confident, powerful men are more attractive to the average female than dependent, and therefore weak, men. I've heard of some studies on it that I won't bother looking up atm.

(I'd try to argue that attractive, half-naked women are not the same as female strippers for symmetry's sake, but I enjoy my current status of not being a target.)

I'm basically trying to suggest that average female sexual tastes might not be mirror images of average male sexual tastes, so appealing equally to male and female sexual tastes might not be as simple as you think. I'm not saying there's equal attention paid to female sexual tastes in games, because the industry's own behavior disproves that, but you can't just point to asymmetry and try to equate it to inequality. They are not the same.

There is this movie, called Magic Mike. It is amazing, a box office hit, a thing created for women for ENTERTAINMENT purposes that involve mostly naked, attractive men dancing around and the major complaint was that they tried to put a lame romantic story into the movie. You should go see it. Actually go talk to a theater workers and ask how loud the women were howling over that movie. Also, The Full Monty touches on the subject matter. Then there are existing shows in Las Vegas, crowded with women howling at half naked men. Also, check out the bachelorette parties going on in recent years. A recent episode of Bones covered the male stripper thing, the good doctor expressed that it's becoming increasingly popular for women of younger generations to desire male strippers because they are gaining more sexual power in their lives. There are actual studies showing how women give male strippers more cash when they are ovulating.

The only difference between male strippers and female strippers is the gender. Otherwise, whatever people are sexually attracted to, they are going to find it sexy dancing around half naked and at peak appearance.

And again, for the sake of Mass Effect's own lore, the asari are a sexually open race who find everyone else not their species sexually attractive. You would think with all their power and influence in the galaxy, they would have strip clubs set up for their viewing pleasure, which would mean there should be some male strippers shaking their asses at the bars.

Just because something is possible, sensible, or even directly implied by the framework of the story does not mean the developer will or ought to include it. You know the recent Batman movies, which have been commercial and critical successes despite having a plot hole the size of Jupiter, specifically that Batman and Alfred are able to single-handedly foil the efforts cave moisture and bat shit and their fantastic ability to destroy all of Batman's very expensive electronics? Yeah, they chose to leave that part out despite it being a direct consequence of housing such a huge operation in a fucking cave because it would have been stupid to include something that does not appeal to any audience and, in fact, reduces the appeal to the existing audience(s). People like to see Batman kick ass with futuristic and non-destroyed technology, and without being covered in guano.

I hate to have to use this line, but video games are ENTERTAINMENT. It's not worth the time and effort to produce entertainment (which costs money) if it won't be more appealing than real life (which is essentially free). In other words, it's about appeal, not about making sense. And since male strippers would most likely reduce the appeal to young men (most likely straight), Bioware understandably would require some proof that male strippers would produce enough appeal to the female or gay audience to make up for the reduced appeal to straight males, regardless of how much sense male strippers make in the context of the story.

Well it didn't hurt Fallout New Vegas sales to have male prostitutes and male strippers. I haven't heard a single complaint from any man who has played the game about these dudes. It's as if they didn't care and were mature enough to realize male prostitutes and strippers exist without harming their straight sexualities. Even better, these characters weren't put in for a female audience, they were often gay and cat calling the male Courier. Female Courier got cat calls from guys, but only had female options and a robot to get laid with, Obsidian actually addressed homosexual needs before straight female needs. And I can understand, realistically, female Courier accidentally getting pregnant at a time like that would be bad. However, as you yourself state, video games are for entertainment purposes! Let's bend reality a little and let the female audience enjoy the idea of not being strapped down to the idea her uterus is a baby factory. After all, male courier isn't getting any of the female prostitutes pregnant.

It took me awhile to get into Fallout:New Vegas due to a very glitchy openning. Got 3/4 the way through and put on that awesome armor on the cover, and destroyed all the work I did getting it....

That being said, I still think the best quest in the game is collecting hookers and strippers for that one place that is outside main vegas. I especially love the spanish male hooker Santiago. He was hilarious, well written, and fit the role in the game well. Fallout in general uses a near farce liking to sexuality that feels appropriate and compliments the game. It didn't have to be there but it is, and in New Vegas they spread that to men. I enjoy this, because it's new. It handles the topic with a bit of humour, but in the end goes "these people exist, they aren't necessarily the worst people ever, and that's just life."

All in all, and most importantly, it reflects low payed areas mindset on such things, and gives us a window into this world we previously didn't have. These are good things, and I'm glad Bethesda decided to include it.

 

[ShadowHamster]

Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?

Yet you never wondered how he shaves his face?

Anyway, I remember an episode of Lois and Clark where he shaved by reflecting his eye lasers with a mirror. I guess his skin is tougher than his hair, and the strength of his laser vision falls nicely between the two.

Not to mention that this would basically be Laser Hair Removal and would eventually lead to him not having to shave.

 

[Tono Makt]

FemShep was doing real good till the third game and Bioware decided the audience was a bunch of dudebros that want to masturbate to hot lesbians. If you play the way many female fans played, your only option in ME3 is to be a lesbian because the male LI you picked either had the balls to cheat on Shepard, died, or is made unavailable because Tali. Apparently with the Citadel DLC, Bioware realized this problem, and threw in the femShep sexual harassing/raping James Vega or drunkenly sexing with Javik. That's right boys, female Shepard got special treatment for once in the form of awkward, unwanted one night stands while Male Shepard is stuck with a bunch of boring, stable, sexual relationships. *sarcasm*

I was demanding on the forums that Bioware put in some male strippers since ME1, day one. It's really strange that as openly sexual and powerful as the asari are, they aren't on the receiving end and have a bar with a bunch of male aliens taking it all off so they can make their way through college.

I believe in the end it comes down to one thing, that was made apparent when they describe how they created Thane Krios. He was suppose to be that character that was for female fan service of a sexualized male alien equal to the asari. The following is some explanation behind Thane's appearance:

?The body wasn't as exhausting as the head. This is Matt Rhodes' attempt. You see, we still have some of the old heads on there, but Matt was trying to explore what would happen if we had more flesh showing. That didn't go over well. We weren't very comfortable with the amount of skin." - Game Informer, Drawing Mass Effect 2, The Creation of Thane. [http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2010/02/09/drawing-mass-effect-the-creation-of-thane.aspx?PostPageIndex=3] (you know, out of context, this quote is glorious)

They decided against having Thane half naked because that made them uncomfortable. The male alien that was suppose to be on par with the sexy asari, couldn't be taken that extra step of sexualization. Meanwhile, the camera is up Miranda's skin tight covered butt frequently(she also has a well detailed camel toe) and Jack is running around with nothing but thin straps holding her boobs. They had to create an alternate outfit for Jack's advertising because her outfit was that revealing. But you know, these women are "sexually open" and it's vital to their "characterizations." At the very least they gave Thane the man cleavage and tried to excuse it for medical purposes. Like I'm sure Samara's reasons are behind her deep, plunging neckline.

Then in the end, they killed off Thane after a couple of lines of dialogue(they had nothing else better for him but a poorly coordinated fight and "emotionally engaging" death scene), stuck the camera back up Miranda's butt(her side plot is the same as ME2), and covered Jack up a bit more, but put her in a more feminine role. (See ladies, you mature and grow and feel better about yourself when you fill out a motherly role.) They did, oddly, almost completely eliminate the strippers, but they make up for it by making the Traynor romance start out like a soft core, male fantasy lesbian porno. Male Shepard's exclusive gay relationship starts out with a cute, comfortable, safe date with Cortez at the bar. Everyone applaud Bioware for their great maturity in handling homosexual relationships.

I'm going to agree with some of your points, particularly on Samara and the lack of male sex objects in the game on a par with the Asari "dancers". Also on the point of hypocrisy with Miranda and Jack. I'm not sure I'd go with the tone you're using, but that's more of a personal preference rather than an outright disagreement. (Also not going to comment on the Citadel DLC as I've not played it myself.) I'm not sure that it's done purely to pander to straight males in the audience, though - I think it's more of Bioware really not knowing how to write something for a female Shep that would be the equivalent to the male Shep, and the attempt being rather awkward and missing the mark. And probably not quite being able to figure out a more meaningful series of sexual options for their female characters beyond One Night Stand (Jack, Miranda, Traynor, Kelly) and Long-Term Commitment (Liara, Tali, Ashley). This may have something to do with the fact that there are only 2 credited women (out of 13 credited writers) on the three main Mass Effect games; Ann Lemay and Cathleen Rootsaert (who was a dialogue editor in ME2 and promoted to writer in ME3), with no women credited as writers on ME1. (It would be interesting to get their take on the matter, actually.)

Also going to give a bit of a nod to the below post:

Kaiden is a decent romance, Garrus is a great romance, and Thane had a very meaningful death and interesting subplot. If you didn't like it that sucks, but it's certainly not the worst part of the game. It wasn't pandering to the straight male audiance. Jacob was a complete brick of a character so I don't see why he was much of a loss but I'll give it to you. Femshep only got two lesbian love interests. If you count the new DLC they added another straight one in James, and that was hardly rape/harassment.

Male shep also got two pretty decent gay love interests. I mean I'm sorry I'm not seeing this completely exclusive pandering to straight males here. Whatever you might disagree with the games direction I just don't think there is much proof to your claims.

I think you've both got some good points on this; it seems to be more a question of aesthetics now. One likes what happened, one didn't like it as much (if at all), and both have good reasons for the opinion.

 

[jokulhaups]

Cue the masses claiming, "this isn't a problem, stop talking about it".

There are bigger problems, this doesn't need as much attention as it's getting.

Of course there are bigger problems, but there are all sorts of people on this planet and we don't have to sit around waiting for life threatening issues to be solved before we talk about this. There are people who can take care of those problems while attention is brought to this by others.