Jimquisition: Rape vs. Murder

[MB202]

I find it interesting how casual people are about rape then murder At least from my perspective. Rape is a lot more traumatizing and leaves scars that don't heal, while murder is just one guy/gal dying and everyone else reacts. I guess it's all about "taking a life" vs. "ruining it for the rest of theirs".

 

[GeorgW]

Given the little text description below the video and the beginning of the video, I was expecting you to take the complete opposite stance on the issue than you did and was preparing to write a ranting comment on how wrong you would have been. Instead you make that rant yourself, and probably makes it better than I would have. Thank you for that, and I will use this video in the future if the topic come up, though I hope it doesn't.

 

[Slayer_2]

Love the "you don't rape in self defense" line. Because that pedestrian's legs that you're running over certainly deserved it, that dumb bastard getting in your way, on the sidewalk of all places! Those civilians in MW2? Deserved it, they were Russian, and therefore all terrorists.

The reality is that games are maturing, and with that, they handle more... controversial subject matter, such as innocents getting injured/killed(or raped). However, American society has not matured very much in relation to anything sex-related. If a penis or vagina is involved, and it's a game, some group of assholes is gonna start bitching. We as humans also still have a notion that women are weak and vulnerable, and must be protected, so a game with such horrible treatment of a woman would cause outrage galore.

To be honest, most game devs probably couldn't handle rape very well, and there'd be a huge media shit-storm. I mean, the sex in ME was consensual, and that riled a lot of feathers, imagine "rape simulator" accusations. Then again, how well is murder and war handled? Not very. It's glorified and human life trivialized, yet the outrage is nothing compared to a virtual rape.

 

[Broken Orange]

No one alive has been killed. Attempted killing, maybe.

 

[FedericoV]

I mostly agree with Jim's position. The video is done very well considering the lenght of it and the sensible nature of the argument. You raise a lot of interesting points.

But I would like to add some random points:

- A lot of games glorify murder. That's the hypocrisy. You can use murder as a storytelling tool but you should at least try to contextualize it. Unfortunately, most game developers are not as smart as Tarantino.

- The myth of the "soldier" is idelogically wrong. For many different reasons but mostly for all the poor guys that continue to die every day in every corner of earth. If you stop to think at it a lot of games appear to be an ethical abomination. Maybe because in the west we like to play war from time to time?

- Rape happens during war. A lot. Maybe because it is part of the same mindset created by war?

- I've read a lot of posts about rape in videogames. But at the end it's mostly a japanese thing, isn't it? I would like to understand why for the japanese rape is not an absolute tabu on a cultural level.

 

[ad5x5]

The problem is that there are way too many people who think that what the victim wore or did in a period before the rape is relevant to the rape, and it's not. Anyone who's first reaction to rape is to question all the victims actions needs to be told why this is wrong. This is why this phrase is said, even if it sounds reductionist at first.

I disagree.
What the victim did in the period leading up to the rape is entirely relevant as it needs to be ascertained if a crime actually took place. Not saying someone walking down an alley in a miniskirt deserves it or we should be blaming someone who is violently attacked.

More talking about the women who go out drinking meet a guy and wake up the next day next to them and can't remember giving consent as they were both a bit too tipsy. Next thing she's crying rape because she can't remember and "he's not the kind of guy I'd sleep with normally."
The worst are the ones that do this because they're EMBARRASSED they slept with the person.
They are evil and it destroys lives.

The circumstances of any rape claim should be examined (as with any other crime) to see what happened. Just taking the woman's word for it is very dangerous.

 

[Alterego-X]

Rape, as an act between two humans is quite obviously a horrible thing, and is why something like "Rapelay" was quickly shelved and forgotten.
Yet rape, as a tentacle and human, is probably one of the things Japan is most known for.

Actually, that's mostly a stereotype based on a 80's hentai fad, where creators tried to go around a ban on on showing animated penises that way, and on later ecchi comedies that ironically referenced it.

The overwhelming majorit of hentai is old-fashined rape, and even the consensual ones have lots of rapey undertones, with the female characters always being relucant, and saying "no" while meaning "yes" during sex, to show how virtous they are.

 

[Kojiro ftt]

Well said Jim, well said.

 

[daltonlaffs]

I'm going to have to take a very controversial stance here.

Jim, you make good points, but you missed the cardinal issue. The question isn't "is rape worse than murder", it's whether or not there's any valid, morally-defensible reason to make games about rape. And no, those two questions aren't intrinsically connected.

You know that whole "violent games make you violent" thing that we all deny because it's demonstrably bullshit? Why do we deny that, again? "Because it's escapism." "Because it lets us put off steam and actually makes us less violent."

I know none of you want to hear this, but there's absolutely no difference between that justification and the idea that playing (or making) a rape fantasy game is wrong. Look at Japan over the last few years, let's see what effect these kinds of things actually have. You see, Japan has a genre of entertainment called "lolita", and I wouldn't recommend Googling that if you aren't familiar with it. It branches off into (drawn) child pornography very quickly. However, Japan actually has an extremely low rate of sexual child abuse compared to most first-world countries. How does that work? They're getting their fix from a victimless source. Ever since that one controversial rape game got banned in Japan and threatened to criminalize that entire subgenre, rates of real sexual abuse (in general) have been on the rise in Japan. Gee, I wonder what the correlation is?

Whether or not you or I like the idea of rape is irrelevant, as irrelevant as the fact that some religious extremists think all forms of violent media should be banned. It's victimless, and if anything, it's preventing the horrible acts it depicts by giving people that are considering them a harmless alternative to the real thing.

And yes, I do think drawn child pornography should be legal everywhere by extension. The witch hunt we have going against pedophiles is just making them more dangerous -- give them something to satisfy their strange desires that DOESN'T involve kidnapping and child rape in real life.

 

[Stripes]

I understand rape is bad, and that its not always obvious, however I disagree that men need to be reminded that fact. Do you need to be reminded not to murder or steal? No you and everyone else old enough to be responsible for their actions knows bad and good and does not need to be reminded what is what, you dont refer to people as potential rapists or murderers so dont treat them like they are.

Actually ... we ARE reminded not to steal and kill. From birth, we're raised to be told not to kill people, not to steal, to be honest and tell the truth. Nowhere are the boys set aside and told, "Now, you're going to have to not rape people." I understand that bringing up sexual issues -- especially concepts such as rape -- to young children is not going to whet the appetite of many parents, but the point remains that men really AREN'T told not to do it in any way. Parents don't tell their kids at any point, concerned more as they are with ensuring they don't smoke or do drugs.

In fact, there are PLENTY of organizations, poster campaigns, and commercials warning us not to smoke and do drugs. I'd say that's a great instance of society being told things it "doesn't need to learn" but having the lesson reinforced anyway. And I'd say that, "don't put the weird pill in your mouth that you know nothing about" is a FAR more obvious lesson than, "Here are the signs that maybe a woman doesn't want to sleep with you."

No need for the caps, lets not get hostile. How many of those adverts are directed at you? For that matter, how many are directed at people who know better? People beyond 25? very few, if any. You teach a child not to do wrong when it doesn't know right from wrong, does anyone still need to remind you, are you capable of working out right from wrong even beyond what you were taught? Are there any poster campaigns telling us not to murder? Its basic stuff, dont rape, dont steal, dont kill. We do not need to be taught. If you go out of your way to tell guys dont rape anyone you are just saying they might, its insulting. Your clearly passionate about this, I respect that, but there's no need to get aggressive.

 

[Mr.Lucifer]

I applaud Jim for taking the issue seriously. In gaming, 90% of killing is in self defense. When you can murder in video games, its usually in over-the-top ways, no is taking it seriously. But you can't rape in over-the-top ways even in fiction. If one could rape in a videogame, it would the same way in real life. It would be horrifying, no one would have fun with it.

 

[esperandote]

It's quite simple to me. We've all had a desire to hurt someone at some point, maybe not kill, but hurt is immensely common. Now, very few people have a desire to rape people, fortunately.

But most people have the desire to have sex, while the person object of the desire migh not want to have sex with said person.

There are hundreds of girls that post dozens of seminaked and/or sexy pictures of them on facebook, and they have public accounts or private but accept all requests, in that case, I'm not saying is right if someone rape them but if someone does i wouldn't say it wasn't 100% inevitable. I know i wish i had sex with them when i see them.

 

[Daveman]

There can be a higher benefit to killing I suppose, whereas rape is just a bad thing. You're not gonna rape your way out of a bad situation. Well... not most situations at least. If that were the case then I think as long as we saw there was a clear higher purpose for the rape (no idea how that would happen besides "there's a nuke up her muff and you can only deactivate it with the imprint of your penis", but that's plain retarded) then we wouldn't feel bad about it.

P.S. Can I come over for white wine spritzers, Jim?

 

[Rockhound]

Both rape and murder are horrible crimes that deserve to be punished. I agree that people, including myself, naturally and instinctively regard rape as a more loathsome crime. I think people tend to regard murder as quick and impersonal and rape as an intense emotional and physical violation. Rape turns something otherwise beautiful and enjoyable into something ugly and painful from which the victims may never recover.

I think we have to be careful to not only consider the act of the crime but also the consequences; rape is terrible and ugly but the victims have the opportunity, however difficult, to recover while the condition of murder victims is decidedly permanent. I do believe there are fates worse than death and I imagine some rapes are so traumatizing as to be such a case but I would like to believe they are the minority.

In response to those who propose rape to be worse than murder; What if the potential victim was yourself, your spouse, your mother or your sister? Do you think you/they would prefer death? Of course there is no right answer but I know what my preference would be.

As far digital murder we, as the player, usually only have to see the ?quick and impersonal side? ? not the consequences. In a video game murder is at worst malicious and at best justified. There is no real consequence to death in a video game.

Rape is by its nature drawn out, highly personal and can never be justified. A digital simulation of a rape would be at best torture porn.

 

[btenkink]

Good points made, impressively done.

 

[Exterminas]

That was impressive.
Some well-made points that I would not have considered on my own in that well-defined phrasing.
Thank god for him.

 

[jmarquiso]

I wish we had an ACLU in England.

Wouldn't that be a BCLU or UKCLU?

 

[Jimothy Sterling]

I understand rape is bad, and that its not always obvious, however I disagree that men need to be reminded that fact. Do you need to be reminded not to murder or steal? No you and everyone else old enough to be responsible for their actions knows bad and good and does not need to be reminded what is what, you dont refer to people as potential rapists or murderers so dont treat them like they are.

Actually ... we ARE reminded not to steal and kill. From birth, we're raised to be told not to kill people, not to steal, to be honest and tell the truth. Nowhere are the boys set aside and told, "Now, you're going to have to not rape people." I understand that bringing up sexual issues -- especially concepts such as rape -- to young children is not going to whet the appetite of many parents, but the point remains that men really AREN'T told not to do it in any way. Parents don't tell their kids at any point, concerned more as they are with ensuring they don't smoke or do drugs.

In fact, there are PLENTY of organizations, poster campaigns, and commercials warning us not to smoke and do drugs. I'd say that's a great instance of society being told things it "doesn't need to learn" but having the lesson reinforced anyway. And I'd say that, "don't put the weird pill in your mouth that you know nothing about" is a FAR more obvious lesson than, "Here are the signs that maybe a woman doesn't want to sleep with you."

No need for the caps, lets not get hostile. How many of those adverts are directed at you? For that matter, how many are directed at people who know better? People beyond 25? very few, if any. You teach a child not to do wrong when it doesn't know right from wrong, does anyone still need to remind you, are you capable of working out right from wrong even beyond what you were taught? Are there any poster campaigns telling us not to murder? Its basic stuff, dont rape, dont steal, dont kill. We do not need to be taught. If you go out of your way to tell guys dont rape anyone you are just saying they might, its insulting. Your clearly passionate about this, I respect that, but there's no need to get aggressive.

I am not getting aggressive. I am emphatic. I am not angry or upset with you at all. I am, in fact, enjoying the discussion.

Now, I get you saying it's insulting. The thing is though, if the worst thing society does to me as a privileged white male (and I agree with Lois CK when he says you really don't get a better starting hand than that) is remind me not to rape people, I think I can happily live with it. In a society where people are quick to imply a victim's fault in a rape, I dare say the reinforcement that the responsibility is the rapist's, not the victim's, is important.

Commercials like this actually do run in the UK, something I forgot to mention in the video. Often aimed at young, college-aged men, reminding them of the consequences of what they're doing, of how what may seem innocent to them looks terrible when viewed from an outsider's perspective. I think they are very useful reminders for the reasons I gave earlier. Sometimes, many times, rape is an insidious act, to the point where it risks being rationalized. While you may be totally immune to such rationalization, and while I may be, there are plenty who aren't.

 

[Ranzid]

Time to throw my 2 cents into the mix...


Jim seems to make the point that murder in games is quick , the enemy can fight back and once your dead you cant suffer.

there are more points but im going to focus on these.

In many games that ive played over the past 10 years you may choose how to kill someone, and if it will be quick or in some cases tortuously slow, games glorify the killing of people by either making it a sort of death porn where you kill people in new exciting ways with wave after wave of mostly harmless enemy's, or I focuses in upon the process and execution of a murder seeming to revel in its application.

Then their is the claim that in games the people/things you kill can fight back , I remember not to long ago the Modern warfare level of slaughtering an entire airport, and in most shoot-em-ups the lower level enemy's never really could threaten you, and in grand theft auto and saints row you can , and are often encouraged , to beat/shoot/kill random civilians.

Finally , and this point has been made already so ill skim, If you are murdered slow or quick then it is the end of your suffering , you cant feel anything more once your dead good or bad. Rape horrific as it is doesn't stop you from experiencing happiness in the future.

Rape is to me a pointless crime , if its a sexual thrill your after then there are far more fun ways to get it especially when the other party is willing to let you put your ***** in their ***** and tickle your ****** while your stroke their giraffe.

and if its the dominance over someone that does it for you , that to is covered by civil society in the form of BDSM and fetishes.

Games these days are as much about the story as they are about the gameplay ( the good ones anyway) and if the story is dark and a character does rape someone then im not going to turn it off in disgust and demand a refund , if the game is meant to illicit a repugnant feeling towards the character doing the rapeing then it worked.

that being said if I was playing a nice RPG and my nicely created character was put in a situation where I had to control him rape someone.. I think I would stop playing , just like if a game wanted me to abuse a child or hurt an animal ( not the 4 tusked jungle terror level 17) or do anything so far off the moral compass it would never find north.

so to summarise for all your TLDR'ers

Rape is not worse than murder, you can never do more than murder.
Rape in games as it is in movies should be carefully placed if at all.
To censor or ban rape in games would lead to a banning of anything considered morally wrong by anyone.

So that's my 2 cents , While I didn't agree with Jim hes still fun to watch rant about things like a bitter old uncle.

 

[jmarquiso]

To be honest, most game devs probably couldn't handle rape very well, and there'd be a huge media shit-storm. I mean, the sex in ME was consensual, and that riled a lot of feathers, imagine "rape simulator" accusations. Then again, how well is murder and war handled? Not very. It's glorified and human life trivialized, yet the outrage is nothing compared to a virtual rape.

It took a long time before rape was being handled in movies beyond implying the act and depicting the reaction to the act. It took a long time to handle it head on and graphically.