Jimquisition: Sexual Failing

[Silly Hats]

I wouldn't have thought that this would actually been an issue. I mean, I would like to think that people can tell the difference between a normal, sexual relationship and a fantasy relationship that's in a videogame. The same way that you and I wouldn't see violence the same way as a videogame. We can distinguish that these aren't how they actually work.

I get the arguments, but if they're just a dynamic that can be avoided then this wouldn't really en an issue for the mature gamer.

 

[Bobic]

Why do this feel like filler episode? Maybe because this should be bloody obvious for everyone. Know what, would probably be more progressive and mature to just make it a one-night stand and drop the talking.

I can assure you this is not filler material. In fact, I attempted to do this episode in my pre-Escapist, non-scripted days and only gave up because I got pissed off fucking up what I was trying to say. I've been looking for an excuse to revisit the topic for about four years now, and relished the chance to do it again.

So yeah, this is FAR from filler. Kinda sad you feel it looks like it is, but trust me, I've been waiting for this one.

I'd say not to be too worried about that, from my perspective you seemed to be talking a lot more passionately than usual (not that you're usually just an emotionless robot or anything), so you could tell it wasn't just a 'shit, gotta fill this week's Jimquisition with something' schtick.

That said, while I've got you, and buttered you up with a compliment. Can I just ask you, (and others reading this) to stop misrepresenting the whole friendzone thing. I went through that phase, and it was never about 'insert compliment, get sex'. It was more a result of the emotionally stunted desperately seeking some form of affection. It's like the whole manic pixie dream girl thing. It was more about finding someone whose love will magic away your depression, than their magical vagina. Sure, it's still stupid and immature, but it's a different kind of stupid and immature, and I don't like my past self being reduced to someone with the morals of a 'pick-up artist'. And while it is important to educate the 'friend zone' types, you'll be much more successful if you do it in a less insulting way, and they'll grow up eventually anyway.

And that's my whining out of the way. Great episode otherwise, another important point well made.

Peace out.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I just want to play games and have stupid fun, and it's becoming quite a chore to find anything that does that, that isn't a Nintendo exclusive or an indi game.

Aren't there already plenty of games that are just stupid fun? I would think that about covers the majority of games out there, since it's harder to make gameplay and story.

I mean, two the most popular game franchises of the decade are just stupid fun.

 

[deathbydeath]

It's also creepy escapism that can lead to some pretty squicky shit if that road is traveled too far.

Why the double standard? If we attack Fox news for assuming GTA turns people into killers, then we shouldn't assume sexual minigames are anything else than harmless escapism.

Besides, like I said... There are so many movies which are, in their entirety, based on similar stuff and nobody is pretending they should be taken seriously.

What double standard? I only listed one, and now you're making an ass out of the both of us by assuming.

 

[wulf3n]

I agree with most of what was said... except.

It's feeding into the idea that if you show kindness to someone their obligated to fuck you.

Why is it when a violent video game is accused of "influencing" violent bevhaviour everyone is all "Poppycock, games don't influence anyone"

But when it's related to the sexist culture in video games it's bad and is now reinforcing the behaviour?

 

[Evonisia]

That Heavy Rain joke was great; Video Games should start putting that music into their sex scenes.

It kinda reminds me of the prison shower scene in Mafia II, a sequence wherein the inmates are obviously going to rape the main character (because it´s a cliché and Mafia II wants in on every cliché in the book), but they didn´t really have the balls to actually execute it. First of all everyone is wearing boxers while showering for some odd reason and secondly the main character decides to beat everyone up when they approach him.

Oh I'm glad somebody else noticed this. I felt like it was getting interesting when this happened only to have a boring combat section because the fist fighting is crap.

 

[TiberiusEsuriens]

A whole 3 or 4 times, wow! Haha, Jim, you saucy dog you

 

[Elyxard]

Bioware definitely got it right back in Baldur's Gate 2 as far as romance goes. Sex was merely a small part of the relationship, not the end goal by any means.

It was kinda sad that the relationship progression.. pretty much stopped once sex occurred in all the Mass Effect games I've played. It's like.. there's a whole lot more to a relationship than that.

And it goes far beyond sex. Most of us were frustrated that Garrus kept going on about "calibrations" rather than say anything to progress the friendship in ME2. The relationships between friends and/or lovers felt shallow in that game.

 

[CBanana]

While I do think Bioware's had mixed success with their romantic writing and I do think their romances emphasize sex a bit too much, I think they should still be applauded for actually putting non-linear relationship dynamics in a game. That way, there's another way that a player has to put thought into a game besides how do I best kill opponents. Some players are putting thoughtful consideration into how their player character relates to their romantic interest and whether they're a good match even if some people might just be gaming the system just to see a sex scene.

I do think that a fade to black would probably be better as CGI sex scenes are really bad and the controversy lottery has already been used up on this issue.

 

[Chuppi]

Now that steps toward having sex in games are uncovered as simply quest lines, how about letting us have boss-fucks instead of boss-fights ?

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Meh, I just skip the sex scenes when they pop up in games like Dragon Age. It looks mediocre and really fucking wrong/robotic.

Is it sad that a game made by people from 4chan (Katawa Shoujo) actually has better idea of what sex is?

My god, I was just thinking that a visual novel doujin game was somehow able to do better than massive teams of writers to make sex mean something.

I honestly don't know why more games can't do that, is it because people don't know how to write the character after sex and how the couple grows together, is it a cynical attempt to draw in the teenage audience, or is it that the game mechanics of anything other than a visual novel make it very hard to implement any actual romance and meaning in sex.

I can see a solution to this, don't make sex the end but the middle or even beginning of a relationship. Have characters put together and have some tension, show the tension slowly dissolving away as time is spent, have a small fling and then have the new couple figure out their emotions and feelings after sex why they want to be closer to each other than before. (P.S. I'm a bit of an old fashion romantic when it comes to what sex means in a relationship so if my suggestion is horrible, correct as much as needed).

 

[ERaptor]

Meh, i think hes harping on less interesting stuff now. I completely agree that Sex scenes are handled the wrong way. They _should not_ be there in the first place. Implied Sex is okay, but actual humping and the like needs to fu*k off. I seriously doubt that anyone sits down at their PC, boots up Dragon Age and goes "Man, im looking forward to these poorly animated Sex scenes, where there isnt enough on screen to be sexually interesting, but just enough to make it awkward!". But i think hes making a bigger Deal of the whole thing that it actually is.

About the build up, especially since he mentiones Bioware:

I agree that the "pay off" in form of said awkward scenes is stupid. I'd rather have some special Mission Conversations, different behavior. You know, some actual signs that there WAS something. It bothered me that the Game placed a complete border between "Relationship Conversation" and "Mission Conversation". It didnt matter that i romanced Tali in Mass Effect, as soon as i left the Normandy everything was the same again. They should expand on the actual Relationship, instead of awkward Sex Scenes, that nobody wants to watch anyways. (Lets be honest, if you _want_ Shep on *Insert Character here* porn, type it into Google. I'd say it will take you around 5 Minutes to find what you're looking for. And with some actual Tits on the screen to boot!). The reason i started a romance with Tali, was because i liked the Character a lot. This means that WHEN i put effort into getting closer to the character, i want more narrative around that, development, some actual romantic Scenes beyond "Dude, they're totally boning! ...i think." (Bite me, im male and a sucker for some Hero / Heroine-stuff where i can go "Awwww")

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Is it sad that a game made by people from 4chan (Katawa Shoujo) actually has better idea of what sex is?

No. Traditionally eroge has always been a strong platform for romance when you're looking for story. Yume Miru Kusuri is still amongst my favourite eroge of all time, even though the stuff by Key are also very good. It's the reason why I followed Leigh Alexander back then as well, because her articles back in 2007 spoke to my niche. i'll even link YMK's review by Leigh too.

http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2007/07/yume_miru_kusuri_falling_in_lo.php

I tried HARD to get the good ending for Mizuki and Aeka, because I was devestated by their bad ends.

But ya, when you're running a platform that doesn't care about social norms, you run into these things.

Heck, in contemporary games, Ico handled human sexuality quite well, putting intimacy above superficial shenanigans like Mass Effect. Even Shadow of the Colossus does it quite well as well, though in a much shorter span of story.

So a question remains why real emotional romance isn't possible in most modern games when, technically, we have the capability of programming multiple reactions, personalities and quirks for each character, and, artistically, we have writers of all sects of life with perspectives of varying degrees.

It could very well be that, because eroge is not restricted to normal social norms that it is easier to create the story; But could it also be just most writers in games don't know how to make a meaningful romance?

 

[deathjavu]

(yeah, it would've been more effective to list games that subvert your point, but this was funnier.)

Yes, you're brilliantly hilarious...you needn't underscore such things with a blunt reminder.

Now that you've gotten all that straw off of your chest, how about listing those games.

Of games with mature, adult experiences? K, lemme just boot up steam.

Now I'm not sure what definition you're using of "mature, adult experiences", but it's been my experience that this is used to mean thought-provoking and complex, not "titties and bluddd!11!". If you're using the second definition, well, all the games Jim complained about in this episode should do you just fine.

Bastion
Bioshock
Bioshock Infinite
Call of Duty 4
Deus Ex
Deus Ex: Human Revolution
Hotline: Miami (admittedly, an odd choice)
Psychonauts

And that is literally just from scrolling down a list of my steam games. There's also stuff I've heard of indirectly, such as Journey, Braid, Ico, Shadows of the Colossus...we haven't even stepped out of stuff that has moderate spotlight to the really indie stuff yet. There's hundreds of games there.

Of course, you made the mistake of lumping movies and TV in this same category, which means I can also point at Lincoln, Black Swan, Up, District 9, No Country for Old Men, Letters from Iwo Jima, The Sixth Sense, Saving Private Ryan, Good Will Hunting, and then into TV we have Breaking Bad, Mad Men, The Sopranos, The Colbert Report...

Again, just going down a list (in this case, the Oscars & Emmy's). 100% sure there are other movies out there I haven't seen or wouldn't find after a 2 minute search on google. All of these deal with important, adult themes.

Here's some cynicism for you: I don't believe you're looking hard enough if all you see is homogenized pap. Yes, that's the majority of the output. It is not all of it. 10% of all creative output is still enough to last you for a lifetime even if you live forever.

 

[Mosesj]

Hey! My dwarf's relationship with Stevren in DAO was some of the most tasteful mdme (Male dwarf on male elf) I've ever encountered.

I kind of wish he brought up the alastor romance in Dragon age origins. That (and the romance with the elf) is actually quite interesting. Even though it is say good things and get ass, you have to spend the whole game doing it, you have to get to know alistor in order to romance him. And there is payoff (or consequence if you think about it) as he will absolutely refuse to let the main character kill herself fighting the dragon

 

[Sheo_Dagana]

I don't look at the sex scenes themselves as a 'reward' in a game... I look at them the same way I look at sex scenes and movies and TV shows. They're just there. I mean, I think any mature person knows that sex in real life functions very differently from how it does in the movies (and porn, for that matter), so why should games be different?

Normally whenever Jim posts a video, even if I don't agree with him, I can usually get behind some of his points. But this time... I dunno. It's just odd to me. I mean, it's not just 'be nice and get laid.' Kratos is not a nice person at all, but he's shagging two or three women at a time (or sometimes those two just 'watch') while you play a mini-game to ensure Kratos doesn't prematurely ejaculate.

I don't know about you, but I'll take two robotic puppets awkwardly rubbing up against each other as some semblance of a romantic culmination as opposed to seeing sex dumbed down to some stupid mini-game where the woman literally may as well just be some kind of sex doll. At least Liara can create Singularities.

 

[Undeadpool]

I'm not going to say I disagree entirely (maybe the sex didn't, but the romances certainly changed the way characters interacted in both Dragon Age and Mass Effect games...well not so much the first for the latter since it happens so late) and the WAY you get there is DEFINITELY eye-rollingly bad, but then what's the solution, Jimothy? Excising romance altogether seems too aggressive, but are there any examples (beyond Baldur's Gate 2, which gets far too much credit in SOME categories, but characters are where it still deserves it all) of romance in games done right?

 

[CBanana]

I agree with most of what was said... except.

It's feeding into the idea that if you show kindness to someone their obligated to fuck you.

Why is it when a violent video game is accused of "influencing" violent bevhaviour everyone is all "Poppycock, games don't influence anyone"

But when it's related to the sexist culture in video games it's bad and is now reinforcing the behaviour?

For one thing people do get affected by violence in video games. They're in an extreme minority but they're there:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/man-steals-truck-kidnaps-woman-reenacting-grand-theft-auto-article-1.1466867
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/2504016/Thailand-bans-Grand-Theft-Auto-after-copycat-murder.html

When considering sexist content, there are far more people who are neutral to sexist ideals than there are people neutral to violent criminal acts, and the neutral people are far more likely to be swayed by the arguments that media intentionally or unintentionally makes which is why sexist content is more influential than content that is more obviously wrong.

Mind you, Bioware gets significantly higher marks than the vast majority of games companies in terms of gender equality and I'd say Dragon Age is exceptional in terms of gender equality. It's fairly cynical to think that everyone in the player base is just gaming the system for bad CGI sex scenes and to suggest that almost no one is in it for evolving relationship dynamics.