Jimquisition: Sexual Failing
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
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Sorry Jim, but you're wrong about Dragon Age. It is not the case that once your protagonist has sex with a party member that the plotline is over, that this is the reward for or culmination of all one's efforts. There is always much more plot to explore after that, much further to go in emotional terms.
Plot spoilers to follow. At a certain level, I don't know why I'm about to type all this out, because surely to feel qualified to make your video you've already played the games? But, if you have, how did you come to your conclusions? Anyway, allow me to give several examples that contradict you.
The Mass Effect series is generally guilty of tacking sex scenes on at the end of romantic storylines as the pre-final-mission "reward" (though it made a bit of progress on that front with ME3, as you can just spend the evening together without having sex, and it's still romantic). But, as I've shown, Dragon Age doesn't do this. Accordingly, when Dragon Age: Inquisition devs talk about maturity, I cannot but think that they actually freaking mean it.
Plot spoilers to follow. At a certain level, I don't know why I'm about to type all this out, because surely to feel qualified to make your video you've already played the games? But, if you have, how did you come to your conclusions? Anyway, allow me to give several examples that contradict you.
In Dragon Age: Origins, there are four romanceable party members. In two cases, Morrigan and Zevran, you can have sex quite early in the relationship, as both are quite casual about intimacy, but only later does attachment really begin and an element of love possibly grow. It begins with sex but doesn't end there - or, at least, it doesn't have to.
Another example would be what happened with my first playthrough of the game: the romantic relationship between Alistair and my Warden did not culminate with sex, which happened for the first time maybe 70% of the way through the game, but in the final hours of the game. After being made king (a role for which she'd supported him), even though they were both in love, he ended their relationship because he felt it was incompatible with his duties as king. At the very end, though, in the final battle, he sacrificed his life to save hers, stealing the death she had planned for herself, because he still loved her. For Wardens who don't have this romantic relationship, he can be talked out of making this sacrifice, but in cases where he's in the love with the Warden he doesn't give a choice, essentially deciding the end of the game for you. He does this regardless of whether you've slept together or not. However, if you do share sex, it only highlights the intimacy of the bond that your characters eventually lose. The culmination of this romantic plot was not sex but his noble death and her deep bereavement. Even after winning the game/battle, she felt like she'd lost everything.
In another case, to get back to Morrigan, a sex scene towards the end of the game that involves her is about far more than titillation. Depending on how one views her character, it can be about secrecy, freedom, betrayal, dubious consent, or a whole host of other themes. She wants to have sex with someone, whether the male protagonist or one or two possible party members who are Wardens, in order to conceive a child that will have the ancient soul of the corrupted creature you're about to fight. She claims that the child will be free of what taints this enemy. You have pretty much no way of knowing if she's telling the truth. And if you're a female Warden and want to take her offer, you have to ask someone else to do it. In the case of my female city elven Warden, that was Alistair: someone she loved even though he'd just ended their relationship, with whom she could never have a child (one of the reasons he ended it), and someone, very importantly, who strongly dislikes Morrigan and is not interested in her sexually (hence the dubious consent). For my Warden, deciding whether to persuade him to do this or whether to tell Morrigan to take a hike was absolutely nothing to do with wanting to see a sexy scene... In fact, this was one scene I did not want to see, which would have made my skin crawl. And turning it down was what caused my story to end in tragedy.
How the frack is this at the level of beach volleyball?
My memories of Dragon Age 2 are not as clear, since I've only played it once. Even so, as far as I recall, sex scenes occur in the second act of three, with romantic plotlines continuing through the third act. In one example, a character is scared by the feeling of getting "too close" to the protagonist after sex and the romance only resumes much later, after character development. In another example, a particular romantic interest doesn't want to have sex no matter how "nice" you are to them throughout the game (another of your criticisms), but the romance can still continue chastely. In general, various characters react to the evolving relationship as the story goes along. Some of the actions you take with regard to your protagonist's romantic partners can change the tone of the ending, and whether or not one wants to punish a guilty terrorist in the game's final hours may depend on the romantic bonds that have built up.
Even in the case of DA2, which, during my playthrough at least, showed poorer writing than DA:O on the romance front, it still isn't true that sex scenes are the payoff and the end of plots, that they are merely tacked on. It's also not true that sex is something characters "have to" have just because you're nice to them. There are dialogue options that can end relationships permanently, because a character will not be interested in a protagonist if they do certain things. There are also characters with whom flirting is possible but romance will never happen, e.g. Varric and Avelline; their friendships are genuine, not some despised friendzone.
Another example would be what happened with my first playthrough of the game: the romantic relationship between Alistair and my Warden did not culminate with sex, which happened for the first time maybe 70% of the way through the game, but in the final hours of the game. After being made king (a role for which she'd supported him), even though they were both in love, he ended their relationship because he felt it was incompatible with his duties as king. At the very end, though, in the final battle, he sacrificed his life to save hers, stealing the death she had planned for herself, because he still loved her. For Wardens who don't have this romantic relationship, he can be talked out of making this sacrifice, but in cases where he's in the love with the Warden he doesn't give a choice, essentially deciding the end of the game for you. He does this regardless of whether you've slept together or not. However, if you do share sex, it only highlights the intimacy of the bond that your characters eventually lose. The culmination of this romantic plot was not sex but his noble death and her deep bereavement. Even after winning the game/battle, she felt like she'd lost everything.
In another case, to get back to Morrigan, a sex scene towards the end of the game that involves her is about far more than titillation. Depending on how one views her character, it can be about secrecy, freedom, betrayal, dubious consent, or a whole host of other themes. She wants to have sex with someone, whether the male protagonist or one or two possible party members who are Wardens, in order to conceive a child that will have the ancient soul of the corrupted creature you're about to fight. She claims that the child will be free of what taints this enemy. You have pretty much no way of knowing if she's telling the truth. And if you're a female Warden and want to take her offer, you have to ask someone else to do it. In the case of my female city elven Warden, that was Alistair: someone she loved even though he'd just ended their relationship, with whom she could never have a child (one of the reasons he ended it), and someone, very importantly, who strongly dislikes Morrigan and is not interested in her sexually (hence the dubious consent). For my Warden, deciding whether to persuade him to do this or whether to tell Morrigan to take a hike was absolutely nothing to do with wanting to see a sexy scene... In fact, this was one scene I did not want to see, which would have made my skin crawl. And turning it down was what caused my story to end in tragedy.
How the frack is this at the level of beach volleyball?
My memories of Dragon Age 2 are not as clear, since I've only played it once. Even so, as far as I recall, sex scenes occur in the second act of three, with romantic plotlines continuing through the third act. In one example, a character is scared by the feeling of getting "too close" to the protagonist after sex and the romance only resumes much later, after character development. In another example, a particular romantic interest doesn't want to have sex no matter how "nice" you are to them throughout the game (another of your criticisms), but the romance can still continue chastely. In general, various characters react to the evolving relationship as the story goes along. Some of the actions you take with regard to your protagonist's romantic partners can change the tone of the ending, and whether or not one wants to punish a guilty terrorist in the game's final hours may depend on the romantic bonds that have built up.
Even in the case of DA2, which, during my playthrough at least, showed poorer writing than DA:O on the romance front, it still isn't true that sex scenes are the payoff and the end of plots, that they are merely tacked on. It's also not true that sex is something characters "have to" have just because you're nice to them. There are dialogue options that can end relationships permanently, because a character will not be interested in a protagonist if they do certain things. There are also characters with whom flirting is possible but romance will never happen, e.g. Varric and Avelline; their friendships are genuine, not some despised friendzone.
The Mass Effect series is generally guilty of tacking sex scenes on at the end of romantic storylines as the pre-final-mission "reward" (though it made a bit of progress on that front with ME3, as you can just spend the evening together without having sex, and it's still romantic). But, as I've shown, Dragon Age doesn't do this. Accordingly, when Dragon Age: Inquisition devs talk about maturity, I cannot but think that they actually freaking mean it.
(Stands up and applauds)
Thanks, Jim! I think you articulated the issue perfectly. I'm all for sex in games, under the umbrella of more choice/options in general, but we live in a culture that promotes sex itself as some sort of ultimate show of love as opposed to just something fun to do in-between mowing down armies of aliens.
I'd pay twice as much for a game that showed complex relationships and emotions with no sex whatsoever, though. Just sayin'. (#TheInternetIsForPorn)
Thanks, Jim! I think you articulated the issue perfectly. I'm all for sex in games, under the umbrella of more choice/options in general, but we live in a culture that promotes sex itself as some sort of ultimate show of love as opposed to just something fun to do in-between mowing down armies of aliens.
I'd pay twice as much for a game that showed complex relationships and emotions with no sex whatsoever, though. Just sayin'. (#TheInternetIsForPorn)
Without meaning to be too disruptive/divisive that's not what the friend zone is.
The friend zone is not when a guy feels entitled to sex because he's a 'nice guy', it's when he wants more than friendship and for one reason or another the girl sees him only as a friend. Originally it as much described the mental rut he was in as anything else, he was stuck in the friend zone pining after a girl he couldn't be with. Incidentally I've known girls with friendzoned guys, most of the time they told me they were oblivious and I'd guess at least half of the cases were legitimate misunderstanding but in some of the cases it was blatantly obvious they were enjoying the attention of being chased after and didn't want to end it. Others were somewhere in between and were avoiding having the conversation because they didn't want a scene, not that there would have been a scene exactly, they would have just had to have had an awkward conversation.
It's really not fair to blame anyone for being in a friendzone but it actually is a thing, the old name for it was the much more romantic (in a Mills & Boon way) 'unrequited love'.
I don't know why it's always sex or 'a vagina' anyway, it shows a severe lack of understanding. I think half of the people on places like /r9k/ would happily take a celibate relationship, it's the desire for love, acceptance and intimacy.
I know this is the Internet's new "God doesn't exist" but realistically much like stereotypes memes like that don't come from nowhere.
The friend zone is not when a guy feels entitled to sex because he's a 'nice guy', it's when he wants more than friendship and for one reason or another the girl sees him only as a friend. Originally it as much described the mental rut he was in as anything else, he was stuck in the friend zone pining after a girl he couldn't be with. Incidentally I've known girls with friendzoned guys, most of the time they told me they were oblivious and I'd guess at least half of the cases were legitimate misunderstanding but in some of the cases it was blatantly obvious they were enjoying the attention of being chased after and didn't want to end it. Others were somewhere in between and were avoiding having the conversation because they didn't want a scene, not that there would have been a scene exactly, they would have just had to have had an awkward conversation.
It's really not fair to blame anyone for being in a friendzone but it actually is a thing, the old name for it was the much more romantic (in a Mills & Boon way) 'unrequited love'.
I don't know why it's always sex or 'a vagina' anyway, it shows a severe lack of understanding. I think half of the people on places like /r9k/ would happily take a celibate relationship, it's the desire for love, acceptance and intimacy.
I know this is the Internet's new "God doesn't exist" but realistically much like stereotypes memes like that don't come from nowhere.
Thank you.WouldYouKindly said:
You summed it up very eloquently, and i totally agree with your position on this.
Don't get me wrong Jim, im a big fan and i have a lot of time for your opinions, but i can't agree with you totally on this.
Maybe it boils down to the player or the semantics of how different relationships are seen in Mass Effect or DA:O, but as a 32 year old man, ill view and enjoy the 'relationship simulator' in a completely different way that a 13 year old boy will.
Mass effect and DA:O are great role playing games and depending on the role you want to play it caters for it. You want to be a sleazebag you can be a sleazebag, you want to be a virtuous person waiting for your 'love' (mass effect 2, looking at the photo of a loved one instead of a sex pay off prior the last mission) you can.
DA:2 Aveline Vallen was the character i found most appealing in my roleplay but i couldn't romance her. They did an innocent version of the friend zone thing there which i considered fun.
I'd slap Duke Nukem with these accusations, but Bioware.... we'd have to agree to disagree Jim.
Oy.Jimothy Sterling said:
That makes this even more disappointing - I mean you're ragging on the one series that is actually making effort with this sort of thing. I mean I can think of at least two counter examples to your "Sex shouldn't be a reward just for being nice to someone" rant out of DA2:
-Aveline, who you can flirt with and attempt to romance, but she won't even pick up on it because she has eyes for someone else
-Sebastian who you CAN romance but never actually have sex with b/c he's taken a vow of chastity
I mean I'll give you that ME tends to constantly run with "Sex is the ultimate reward for the romance plot" thing, but Dragon Age has very much not done that - you have characters like Zeveran and Isabella who are totally willing to have a quick fling with you and the sex part happens early on, but actually winning their heart is a much different matter.
"You're right, video games are just for kids! In fact, why are you playing them at all, you faux-cynical twentysomething? Video games aren't for you, they're solely designed to provide a stream of colorful lights and pretty sounds to small children! Storylines and such are never going to have a place in games, the tiny buggers wouldn't get it anyway! Video games are just toys for kids."Caostotale said:
-Your same argument, circa 1995
"You're right, TV is just news and cartoons, it'll never be a real medium. It's just cheap entertainment to keep kids occupied and a conveniently updfated newspaper! There's no room for deep stories in television, it's not a profitable model when they can just keep pumping out cartoons and terrible sitcoms."
-Your same argument, circa 1955
"What is this rubbish? Moving pictures? How could you possibly tell an actual story with such base and simplistic methods? It will never match the storytelling potential of radio without sound, and thusly it is reduced to a poor substitute for a book! Why, this expensive knockoff will never be more than a base thrill, a gaudy trinket for the unlettered!"
-Your same argument, circa 1915
"Cinqa dreck upa tse tcheck, spa ilt veh oct lig! Doge pilt em ir lei owst,...."
-Your same argument, circa 8,000 b.c., speaker argues that this new "writing" will never compare to oral storytelling traditions because it doesn't have the emotional weight of a speaker telling a story, etc.
They were wrong, and so are you!
(yeah, it would've been more effective to list games that subvert your point, but this was funnier.)
Comparing ME/DA's romances to Dead or Alive Volleyball is a bit unfair because I liken the whole romance affair to playing with dolls and pairing them up just to see what happens. You can divorce the sexuality and titillation from a game like Dragon Age; you can't do that with Dead or Alive. For example, I know someone who played Dragon Age solely for the Alistair romance because she wanted to play out a Princess Bride-like fantasy and Alistair is a bit like Wesley. She mashed the "give me a kiss" dialogue whenever she was starting to get bored of the game (which I found hilarious watching her do it), and never really went for the (almost totally optional) sex scenes.
I know people try to do that with Dead or Alive, but they always have to preface their explanation of the gameplay with some comment downplaying the sexuality, which means that sexuality is inseparable from the gameplay of that game.
That said, constantly using the same formula for Romance means that... well... you're Bioware and you can only make one game with different settings and backgrounds.
I know people try to do that with Dead or Alive, but they always have to preface their explanation of the gameplay with some comment downplaying the sexuality, which means that sexuality is inseparable from the gameplay of that game.
That said, constantly using the same formula for Romance means that... well... you're Bioware and you can only make one game with different settings and backgrounds.
No. Traditionally eroge has always been a strong platform for romance when you're looking for story. Yume Miru Kusuri is still amongst my favourite eroge of all time, even though the stuff by Key are also very good. It's the reason why I followed Leigh Alexander back then as well, because her articles back in 2007 spoke to my niche. i'll even link YMK's review by Leigh too.Ponyholder said:
http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2007/07/yume_miru_kusuri_falling_in_lo.php
I tried HARD to get the good ending for Mizuki and Aeka, because I was devestated by their bad ends.
But ya, when you're running a platform that doesn't care about social norms, you run into these things.
Heck, in contemporary games, Ico handled human sexuality quite well, putting intimacy above superficial shenanigans like Mass Effect. Even Shadow of the Colossus does it quite well as well, though in a much shorter span of story.
Again. She leaves you. That's the resolution. That you don't find that conclussion to your liking is a different matter altogether.Hawkeye21 said:
Yes, you're brilliantly hilarious...you needn't underscore such things with a blunt reminder.deathjavu said:
Now that you've gotten all that straw off of your chest, how about listing those games.
I have to agree with Jim on most of this. There is just one problem, you see guys who aren't interested in a relationship or something slightly less long term with a woman usually won't pay much attention to her, or the girl ends up being "one of the guys", which is often not how they want to be treated.
I'm not going to listen to a mountain of emotional banter (real life or gaming.. it really doesn't matter) unless the reward involves something other than just having had the "privileg" of listening to it.
Friends talk about their interests. Stuff such as work, sports, holidays, stories, technology, getting drunk, gaming etc. Guys (not saying they don't exist, but I have never met anyone) don't want to listen to someone boo-hooing about some emotional crap that either don't have easy and logical solutions or that simply aren't important to the listener.
edit
Disclaimer:
Talking about emotional stuff with friends is okay so long as beer is involved. The purpose should ofcourse always be the beer
I'm not going to listen to a mountain of emotional banter (real life or gaming.. it really doesn't matter) unless the reward involves something other than just having had the "privileg" of listening to it.
Friends talk about their interests. Stuff such as work, sports, holidays, stories, technology, getting drunk, gaming etc. Guys (not saying they don't exist, but I have never met anyone) don't want to listen to someone boo-hooing about some emotional crap that either don't have easy and logical solutions or that simply aren't important to the listener.
edit
Disclaimer:
Talking about emotional stuff with friends is okay so long as beer is involved. The purpose should ofcourse always be the beer
Well, in the first Dragon Age game, if you get Morrigan to admit she is in love with you and the player says their in love with her she won't have sex with the player anymore. they still kiss and and she will say things about their relationship, but no more sex. You could have sex with her before because it was meaningless but if you get to a serious relationship the sex stops, and in order to get to that point you actually have to say things to her that lowers her disposition towards you. that's kinda the opposite of his argument.
Really a missed chance to yell "Look at dem EMOTIONZ!!!" in your awesome impression of David Cage when they where making out in those Heavy Rain clips!!!
You know what games did sex well?
1. Baldur's Gate 2: Some of the romances didn't have sex as the endgame at all, just part of the relationship. Sex was just random in Viconia's romance, and in Aerie's romance it deals with the consequences of sex with an insecure person. Also you can have a baby with Aerie.
2. The Witcher 2: Sex is just a thing. It's not the be-all and end-all of Geralt's and Triss' relationship, just something you can do. Very realistic approach to sex. You bang in the games opening scene pretty much, no big deal.
1. Baldur's Gate 2: Some of the romances didn't have sex as the endgame at all, just part of the relationship. Sex was just random in Viconia's romance, and in Aerie's romance it deals with the consequences of sex with an insecure person. Also you can have a baby with Aerie.
2. The Witcher 2: Sex is just a thing. It's not the be-all and end-all of Geralt's and Triss' relationship, just something you can do. Very realistic approach to sex. You bang in the games opening scene pretty much, no big deal.
One of the best episodes you've ever done. I don't always agree with what you say on the show but damn, you hit the nail on the head.
Legion said:
As for Jim's show today. I think what he's more miffed about is that they talk about their sex scenes being "adult", and "mature".
He argues that they aren't because the sex itself is "shallow". There are a few cases in Dragon Age were the sex does kind of matter, but a lot of the time "it's done, and then it's done". Nothing much comes from it later in the game.
The relationships continue, and it comes up in conversation once or twice, but not much more than that most of the time.
For an example of when it can have a bit more meaning; when you and Morrigan can have a child together, or make Alistair/Loghain do it.
Or in Dragon Age 2, when you can ask Merrill to move in with you.
Or in Dragon Age 2, when you can ask Merrill to move in with you.
Now that's not to say that every sexual encounter has to have such meaning. As Isabela herself said, "What I do is only skin deep".
Though it would be nice if after sex the relationship could go somewhere from there more often.
Heck, the real big changes of the two examples I gave take place mostly off screen.
That's why I think it would be nice if they added in more things that the characters can to together, that isn't sex.
For one, I found being able to kiss your love interest in Origins to be more "intimate" than the sex.
I didn't realize that miniature fantasy Willem Dafoe looked so much like real Willem Dafoe until the close-up with the dragon dildo in this episode. Cool, now I want one. (Side note, Beyond Two Souls is pretty good but it would have been even better with more Willem Dafoe in it. He needed more screen time methinks. Actually that's just as much serious as it is a joke, they could have shown more of the relationship between Jodie and Nathan.)
Also thank you for making fun of the really bad, awkward, and unneeded sex scene in Heavy Rain. I actually missed the sex scene in Beyond, but once I have to see it to get the trophy for seeing it, I imagine I'll find myself wishing I had never gone back to see it because it will probably be just as bad. Developers should just lay off showing two characters getting intimate like that until technology improves enough to where they can make it look good rather than like something they drudged up from the deepest depths of the uncanny valley. Hell, God of War has better sex scenes than Mass Effect, Heavy Rain, and probably Beyond because God of War just pans the camera away from Kratos and whoever the lady of the game is and focuses on a jar rattling around or something. (Well, better in terms of what you see on screen, anyway. Not sure it's much better in terms of its presentation of getting to have some sex.)
Oh, and I'm still sad that Keith David wouldn't fuck me in Saints Row 4. =(
Also thank you for making fun of the really bad, awkward, and unneeded sex scene in Heavy Rain. I actually missed the sex scene in Beyond, but once I have to see it to get the trophy for seeing it, I imagine I'll find myself wishing I had never gone back to see it because it will probably be just as bad. Developers should just lay off showing two characters getting intimate like that until technology improves enough to where they can make it look good rather than like something they drudged up from the deepest depths of the uncanny valley. Hell, God of War has better sex scenes than Mass Effect, Heavy Rain, and probably Beyond because God of War just pans the camera away from Kratos and whoever the lady of the game is and focuses on a jar rattling around or something. (Well, better in terms of what you see on screen, anyway. Not sure it's much better in terms of its presentation of getting to have some sex.)
Oh, and I'm still sad that Keith David wouldn't fuck me in Saints Row 4. =(
Oh god sex in video games is horrible. Watching uncanny valley robot CG characters that have been animated dry humping is unsettling at best. Its even worse if someone else happens to be watching. The lead up to sex in games is pretty trite but then again the giving and receiving of sex in real life is also pretty trite. Lets face it, there are 6 billion people on the planet and that's a lot of fucking. Its not some special thing, though we like to dress it up like it is because its more typical human narcissistic fulfillment.
Ironically a lot of people call The Witcher's sex scenes "distasteful" and "out of place" on a gritty, sleazy and corrupt fantasy world, while they keep bangin' Anders in a gay romance. At least The Witcher is honest about it, it doesn't get as pretentious as BioWare's games*.Mcoffey said:
[small]*Disclaimer: I love BioWare's games, but I can't help but to think they can get a bit pretentious sometimes...[/small]