Jimquisition: Sexual Failing

Legion

Were it so easy
Oct 2, 2008
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Imp Emissary said:
Legion said:
Imp Emissary said:
Was kind of talking about this with a friend a bit ago.
I really wish they replaced the sex scenes with something a little more interesting to do. Like say taking them out on dates as a mini quest after you make the relationship "official". Get to know the characters, just for the sake of getting to know them. Instead of getting to know them so you can get into their pants easier.
Then the game gets called a dating simulator and the "You need a girlfriend/boyfriend" comments start. On the Bioware forums a lot of people wanted this for Mass Effect 2 as DLC or in Mass Effect 3. The people against it stated the above as the reason for why it shouldn't. They saw it as perpetuating the lonely nerd stereotype.
xD Don't people already make those comments?
Naturally. I get the impression most people do it as a defensive reaction out of fear of being seen as a typical geek. Although why somebody would be bothered about that while spending time on a gaming forum is beyond me. I do not know of any "non-geeky" people who do it, so by that point the threshold has been crossed really.

Also, as for it being called a "dating sim", I guess I'd have to ask; So?

They already kind of are, except we don't get to send as much time just learning about the character. And as for the "you Girlfriend/Boyfriend" thing, I know of a fair amount of people who play Mass Effect/Dragon Age who take the romances "seriously", and who are married in real life.
No argument from me, I am not bothered by people calling them that. I don't see anything wrong with getting invested in fiction.

The "dates" wouldn't be there to make the characters into a substitute for a spouse, but rather they would be there so we could get to learn more about the characters. Something I would imagine people who really like the characters would enjoy.

The most interesting thing about sleeping with Isabela in Dragon Age 2 was that you could then learn more about her past.
That is why I don't really agree that Bioware are that bad with them. In Mass Effect it can be worse, but in Dragon Age the romances are pretty much the only way to learn certain things about the characters, and in most cases are entirely miss-able. If it was made for pandering and as a "goal" it wouldn't be something you could quite easily miss if you aren't paying attention.

That isn't to say they couldn't be written better, but the only time I really felt like it was "Say nice things and get to sex" was Mass Effect 2.

As for the dates themselves, they don't necessarily have to just be going to some restaurant or something "ordinary" like that.

It could, like I said, be a quest you do with just them.
Like exploring a derelict Geth ship with Tali, going sailing with Isabela (and most likely having to fight off raiders), or going off with Garrus to practice shooting.

Heck, some off those things are already done with the characters, and you don't even need to be in a relationship with them to go. In fact, it would just be nice to be able to do more quests with your companions, and get to know them better while playing the game.

The "dates" wouldn't need to be too different from that, except in the narrative the player's character is in a relationship with them.
That was the kind of thing I was hoping for with Mass Effect 3. Bioware excels at character arcs much more than overall stories, so I wanted to them to concentrate on making the personal stories for the companions quite a large focus. I recall saying on the Bioware forums some time ago that they don't really need to make the relationships and friendships all that different. Certain aspects sure, seeing as friendships and relationships are not different purely because of sex, but they don't need to be entirely based upon being "romance".
 

deathbydeath

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I'm reminded of the "romantic" relationship in Dan Abnett's Eisenhorn trilogy between Gregor Eisenhorn and Alezebeth Bequin. Perhaps one of the reasons I like it so much is because the relationship never actually culminates in sex or really has sex in it at all; it focuses purely on the dynamic between the two great characters and the symbolism behind their interactions.
 

WouldYouKindly

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Wait, there's such a thing as high class porn?

I thought it was something like there's regular porn. There's "amateur" porn. There's filthy disgusting porn that you will undoubtedly find attractive once you get sick of the regular stuff.
 

deathbydeath

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Sgt. Sykes said:
And if I can pretend to be good at shooting people, why can't I pretend I can bone someone just by giving them gifts?

I mean, it's escapism.
It's also creepy escapism that can lead to some pretty squicky shit if that road is traveled too far.
 

Pyrokinesis

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Jim, you should really do a video on the Totalbiscut Vs Garry's Incident going on. Its on youtube's terrible copyright system, its abuse, and reviewer censorship. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfgoDDh4kE0
 

tyriless

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Aug 27, 2010
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Wait a second. So it is ok that murder a ton of people, more than I can even dare to count, but consensual intercourse is suddenly off-limits? As one American to another: you've been in this county a little too long.

And why exactly is this a problem? Are you worried how this industry is going to be perceived? Shame on you then, because critics of our favorite media are going to lambast everything we do until they grow too old to be listened to and are replaced by people who know what they are talking about.

Are you insinuating that I actually will go out and have an unhealthy relationship because I play these games? I find your concern for me insulting. You don't get to be my vanguard of decency. I can discern the difference between game mechanics that simulates a relationship and the real deal.

Jim, this is going to be one of the times you ranted and , later on, you will either figure out you were wrong or someone's going to point out to you how off-base you are.

This has been a rare misfire as your rants go.
 

Mr_Terrific

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LiquidGrape said:
Dragon Age 2 is a great argument to the contrary, actually. Isabela, for example, whose sex scene occurs in the first act and is nowhere near the romantic climax of that relationship.

Did you ever play the game? Just curious since it would've deflated pretty much this entire issue.
This whole episode is just another excuse to throw shit at Cage. The sex scenes in DAO and DA2 were well done and most of the relationships have meaning after the fact. If you are in a relationship with one character and have sex, you'll ruin that relationship if you sleep with another character or even attempt to do it.

----------------------------------------

The issue here is the fact that Jim seems to think that his reasons for sexing up the ladies is and should be universal and it's not.

Sometimes, we just want to fuck. No strings or consequences. Believe it or not, woman are like that as well. Woman just want a piece of ass. I've actually been told to get out before her kids wake up. She wasn't trying to cuddle or any of that other shit Jim is on. Hell, I didn't even talk to her again until she wanted more ass.

Sometimes, sex is just sex and if you've been with more than a few partners, you'd know better.

I don't expect Jim to understand.
 

Aardvaarkman

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Jul 14, 2011
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I think the world needs porn starring Jim. It's a gaping hole in the market, and it needs to be filled.
 

Zeldias

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The issue to me is that a relationship in these games is never really represented. The NPCs that you target for romance (because that's how the shit feels to me given that it's so purposeful) basically just have some conversations with you, open up about some shit, maybe say something like "I've never told anyone/you wouldn't understand/OMG I like you bunches!" then you do nice stuff for them and you fuck. After the fucking, there often isn't anywhere else to go because now you're in love and shit is hunky-dory. The only Bioware relationships I can think of that buck this trend would be Alistair keeping you as a mistress, Morrigan, DA2's Isabella, DA2's Anders, and Liara if you romance her from ME1 to ME3. ME3's Citadel DLC was pretty great for fighting this, too.

It would be much more interesting to see interactions that are outside of this paradigm, but the issue might be the design of RPGs as they are today. No NPC ever actually courts the player, there are no Citadel-style moments where you just have a nice evening with your significant other sappily singing a musical to each other or going out on a date, or any of the other interactions that humans typically have. It really does dehumanize and reduce sex to a victory condition as opposed to a thing that happens between adults with chemistry and mutual attraction. The time and space for such interactions just isn't being made (I guess because it would seem out of place to have character-focused moments in such a character-focused subnarrative as a romantic arc?).

Shit, I would pay for more of this kind of stuff as DLC even. The romance can't just spring from mechanically handing people things and strategically agreeing with them (or disagreeing maybe in the case of DA2); we need intimate character moments, both large and small, that help build a sense not just of falling in love, but of a budding and lasting relationship.

EDIT://

And to folks missing the point, Jim is making the point that in the west, you frequently hear men complain about not getting their person of interest in this configuration: "She friend-zoned me! Unbelievable! I was nice, I did stuff for her, I did everything right! I can't believe she won't be with me!" This is an incredibly capitalist/mercantile view of romance that basically suggests that one didn't receive payment for services rendered: I did X, she did not do Y, therefore, I was cheated.

The play of video game romances follows suit: you are nice (choose the right responses), you do stuff for them (sidequests/give them things), and after correctly performing all of the tasks, you reach the reward, which is a sex scene and the NPC saying s/he loves you. Jim focuses on the misogyny of the thing presumably because women are typically the ones sexily showing skin (except for...Jacob in ME2. I can't think of anyone else other than in DA1 where both parties got down to their skivvies).

So Jim complains about WRPG romances generally boiling down to the most obvious mechanistic functions of gameplay design, and as a subset of that complaint, discusses how that design mirrors sexist romantic/sexual expectations in heterosexual relationships (which is both creepy and fucked up), then rounds it out by saying the pretension that this is a mature representation of sexual relationships is toxic to the culture at large by reinforcing both the pseudo-capitalist mercantile understanding that sex/love should be given for services rendered and the mainstream sexism of that same understanding as seen in the notion of the "friend-zone."

So to sum it up, the design of WRPG romance and sexuality is one, infantile and shitty because it works off of a mercantile understanding of human relationships, and two, reinforces those mercantile expectations as normally parroted in the "friend-zone" belaboring (which is sexist in that it essentially presumes a woman owes a man love for services rendered, reducing her from a complex being with multifaceted feelings and emotions to a customer unwilling to pay with love for services rendered and goes on to regard friendship with a woman whom one presumably likes to be an undesirable state).

Note: it is true that the friend-zone conversation comes up outside of heterosexual relationships and this should also be addressed. The main point that I took from it is that the design and illustration of sexual relationships in WRPGs is reducible to "render services, get laid," which is, at best, uninspired and banal, and at worst, reprehensible.
 

bificommander

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Based on my (s)experience with the mass effect series, I find some of Jim's complaints valid, some less so.

On the valid side, I never thought about the whole NiceGuy/Frienzone implications of the romance options, but I suppose the romance minigame does have an input/output feel to it. And within a single game, the sex scene is indeed portrayed as the capstone of the whole relationship, no further exploration of the emotional side is given. And yeah, for all their high-and-mighty statements, titilation is a factor of their appeal.

On the invalid side, I don't recal giving presents to be a part of the Mass Effect romance options. It was about talking with the partner and getting along with them. That is a real and neccesary part of a real relationship too, though it is true that it shouldn't automatically result in a romance. But, especially in the earlier games, it wasn't. There were quite a few crew members you could talk to and befriend, but who would never sleep with you. Only some apparently kind of liked you, and would consider you as a romantic partner if they "got to know you". Admittedly, this fell a bit by the wayside in later games, where you could romance everything with a pulse and a roughly human shape. And where they started adding pointless characters that added nothing to the plot to your crew, just to give you more shagging material.

And another point is that you could, if you looked, find a bit more of an overarching romance-arc if you played several games. My fem-shep dated Liara in the first game, but since I didn't own Lair of the Shadowbroker, she's not a romantic partner in ME2. I didn't feel like romancing any of the other characters, so I did nothing. And that resulted in a short scene with just Shepard in her room, wistfully looking at a picture of Liara. No sex, but romance. It's a small thing, and it would be nice if there'd been a little bit more of that overarching feel, but it was there.

And in a character-driven RPG like Mass Effect, I'll say that yes, titilation aside, I am interested in the romance options for the romance. Let's face it, if you just want to see sex, there are much easier ways of watching much more explicit material than these games will ever give you. I wanted to do the romance plots because I liked the characters and wanted to see them hook up.

(Side note: On my first playthrough of ME3, I didn't have my old saves. I noticed that my favourite character in the team, Tali, was now a possible romantic partner, so my clean-slate male-shep tried to woe her. And then the Geth-Quarian conflict exploded in my face because my actions from ME2 weren't saved. And my paragon Shepard could not just let the Quarians, who'd been following the lead of the trigger-happy maniac the whole time, just wipe out all the Geth. So I helped the Geth, thinking the Quarians would pipe the fuck down once I did. They didn't, they got wiped out and Tali killed herself. A punch in the gut that was, let me tell you, but I refused to reload my save. That was my character's moral decision, and if that meant the girl he loved died, he'd just have to live with that.)

So, bottom line, there's something to Jim's complaints, but I don't think sex scenes can't add anything to a game. I don't know an easy way to fix the give-the-right-answers-in-X-conversations-and-get-laid problem without making the game arbitarily dump two characters in bed, but a few more major characters who just aren't romantically interested in your character might downplay the suggestion that sex is simply bought with sufficient nice answers. And don't treat the sex-scenes like a the victory-screen of the romantic minigame, equivalent to the good-ending cutscene of the main game. Show more of the emotional part relationship, especially afterward. Having it carry over to the sequel is a plus.
 

barbzilla

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Dec 6, 2010
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Jimothy Sterling said:
Sexual Failing

Some developers will have you believe they are purveyors of tasteful, mature, adult sexual content. Some developers are talking out of their arses.

Watch Video
3 or 4 times? You married too soon my friend.

In all seriousness though; The obligatory sex scenes in Bioware games are starting to grate on me. I was really hoping it would pass, but here we are, almost a whole new generation of machines in, and we still can't get over the sex scene. In reality it is nothing more than a skinner box for the NPC interaction BS.

Anyway, Thank god for you Jim!
 

MB202

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While I don't necessarily agree with everything Jim said in this video, I found it freaking hilarious that he used an image of Doug and Patti Mayonnaise in the video! XD
 

Estelindis

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Jan 25, 2008
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Sorry Jim, but you're wrong about Dragon Age. It is not the case that once your protagonist has sex with a party member that the plotline is over, that this is the reward for or culmination of all one's efforts. There is always much more plot to explore after that, much further to go in emotional terms.

Plot spoilers to follow. At a certain level, I don't know why I'm about to type all this out, because surely to feel qualified to make your video you've already played the games? But, if you have, how did you come to your conclusions? Anyway, allow me to give several examples that contradict you.

In Dragon Age: Origins, there are four romanceable party members. In two cases, Morrigan and Zevran, you can have sex quite early in the relationship, as both are quite casual about intimacy, but only later does attachment really begin and an element of love possibly grow. It begins with sex but doesn't end there - or, at least, it doesn't have to.

Another example would be what happened with my first playthrough of the game: the romantic relationship between Alistair and my Warden did not culminate with sex, which happened for the first time maybe 70% of the way through the game, but in the final hours of the game. After being made king (a role for which she'd supported him), even though they were both in love, he ended their relationship because he felt it was incompatible with his duties as king. At the very end, though, in the final battle, he sacrificed his life to save hers, stealing the death she had planned for herself, because he still loved her. For Wardens who don't have this romantic relationship, he can be talked out of making this sacrifice, but in cases where he's in the love with the Warden he doesn't give a choice, essentially deciding the end of the game for you. He does this regardless of whether you've slept together or not. However, if you do share sex, it only highlights the intimacy of the bond that your characters eventually lose. The culmination of this romantic plot was not sex but his noble death and her deep bereavement. Even after winning the game/battle, she felt like she'd lost everything.

In another case, to get back to Morrigan, a sex scene towards the end of the game that involves her is about far more than titillation. Depending on how one views her character, it can be about secrecy, freedom, betrayal, dubious consent, or a whole host of other themes. She wants to have sex with someone, whether the male protagonist or one or two possible party members who are Wardens, in order to conceive a child that will have the ancient soul of the corrupted creature you're about to fight. She claims that the child will be free of what taints this enemy. You have pretty much no way of knowing if she's telling the truth. And if you're a female Warden and want to take her offer, you have to ask someone else to do it. In the case of my female city elven Warden, that was Alistair: someone she loved even though he'd just ended their relationship, with whom she could never have a child (one of the reasons he ended it), and someone, very importantly, who strongly dislikes Morrigan and is not interested in her sexually (hence the dubious consent). For my Warden, deciding whether to persuade him to do this or whether to tell Morrigan to take a hike was absolutely nothing to do with wanting to see a sexy scene... In fact, this was one scene I did not want to see, which would have made my skin crawl. And turning it down was what caused my story to end in tragedy.

How the frack is this at the level of beach volleyball?

My memories of Dragon Age 2 are not as clear, since I've only played it once. Even so, as far as I recall, sex scenes occur in the second act of three, with romantic plotlines continuing through the third act. In one example, a character is scared by the feeling of getting "too close" to the protagonist after sex and the romance only resumes much later, after character development. In another example, a particular romantic interest doesn't want to have sex no matter how "nice" you are to them throughout the game (another of your criticisms), but the romance can still continue chastely. In general, various characters react to the evolving relationship as the story goes along. Some of the actions you take with regard to your protagonist's romantic partners can change the tone of the ending, and whether or not one wants to punish a guilty terrorist in the game's final hours may depend on the romantic bonds that have built up.

Even in the case of DA2, which, during my playthrough at least, showed poorer writing than DA:O on the romance front, it still isn't true that sex scenes are the payoff and the end of plots, that they are merely tacked on. It's also not true that sex is something characters "have to" have just because you're nice to them. There are dialogue options that can end relationships permanently, because a character will not be interested in a protagonist if they do certain things. There are also characters with whom flirting is possible but romance will never happen, e.g. Varric and Avelline; their friendships are genuine, not some despised friendzone.

The Mass Effect series is generally guilty of tacking sex scenes on at the end of romantic storylines as the pre-final-mission "reward" (though it made a bit of progress on that front with ME3, as you can just spend the evening together without having sex, and it's still romantic). But, as I've shown, Dragon Age doesn't do this. Accordingly, when Dragon Age: Inquisition devs talk about maturity, I cannot but think that they actually freaking mean it.
 

VondeVon

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(Stands up and applauds)

Thanks, Jim! I think you articulated the issue perfectly. I'm all for sex in games, under the umbrella of more choice/options in general, but we live in a culture that promotes sex itself as some sort of ultimate show of love as opposed to just something fun to do in-between mowing down armies of aliens.

I'd pay twice as much for a game that showed complex relationships and emotions with no sex whatsoever, though. Just sayin'. (#TheInternetIsForPorn)
 

ForumSafari

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Without meaning to be too disruptive/divisive that's not what the friend zone is.

The friend zone is not when a guy feels entitled to sex because he's a 'nice guy', it's when he wants more than friendship and for one reason or another the girl sees him only as a friend. Originally it as much described the mental rut he was in as anything else, he was stuck in the friend zone pining after a girl he couldn't be with. Incidentally I've known girls with friendzoned guys, most of the time they told me they were oblivious and I'd guess at least half of the cases were legitimate misunderstanding but in some of the cases it was blatantly obvious they were enjoying the attention of being chased after and didn't want to end it. Others were somewhere in between and were avoiding having the conversation because they didn't want a scene, not that there would have been a scene exactly, they would have just had to have had an awkward conversation.

It's really not fair to blame anyone for being in a friendzone but it actually is a thing, the old name for it was the much more romantic (in a Mills & Boon way) 'unrequited love'.

I don't know why it's always sex or 'a vagina' anyway, it shows a severe lack of understanding. I think half of the people on places like /r9k/ would happily take a celibate relationship, it's the desire for love, acceptance and intimacy.

I know this is the Internet's new "God doesn't exist" but realistically much like stereotypes memes like that don't come from nowhere.