Jimquisition: The Xbox One: A Lying Failure Machine

CaitSeith

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theApoc said:
They did not "ignore" their consumers. They catered to them.
They catered to them because they were going to lose them. Sorry, but in the gaming industry, risk is inversly proportional to inovation. And it doesn't matter how much you rationalize it, Xbox is a game console brand name and is bought mainly by gamers for playing games (for multimedia entertainment, non-gamers usually buy home theaters). Include a new feature on it? Maybe it could work. Include something unwanted at expense of the main purpose and for more money? Really risky (specially if the rival does it better or cheaper)
 

SeventhSigil

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theApoc said:
Okay, looking at your posts throughout the thread, there are a couple of consistent points you bring forth that seem to be missing something.

1) You've said a few times that Microsoft was not, and at no point was ever, forcing consumers to purchase the Xbox One as it was originally advanced. Whether it was with the old digital policies, or with the Kinect as an attached peripheral; you pointed out that people had the option, always had the option, simply not to buy it, or to instead buy the competitor's product. You outright said that disliking a direction the company has taken is not the same as 'being forced to endure some draconian policy.'

I actually agree with you. Completely, a hundred percent; while it could be argued that using something like Halo as a lure for less popular features isn't going to be a beloved move, especially around the hardcore Halo fans who dislike Kinect, at no point was Microsoft forcing anyone to buy the Xbox One. Besides which, using exclusive franchises as a selling point is par for the course anyway, so it all but cancels itself out. All consumers, be they gamers or otherwise, had the option to vote with their wallets and simply not hand over their money. So on that note, you and I are most certainly on the same page; it was always the decision of the customer whether to buy it or not.

However. What you should know- and perhaps I've simply misinterpreted what you've been saying- is that even though Microsoft isn't forcing the consumers to purchase their device 'as is,' it is still their primary goal to get the machine into as many houses as possible, for obvious reasons. That, above all else, is their aim, and they will do anything necessary to accomplish it. They initially believed that they could accomplish this primary goal with the original vision- advancing the idea of a futuristic, unique console that would completely set it apart from the competition and, by extension, cause it to radically outsell the 'Same Old, Same Old' machine that Sony was advancing. They also believed that by 'broadening the audience,' and trying to reach non-gamers, they would expand their market, and radically expand their sales.

And, to be fair, it did indeed set them apart from the competition... only not in a positive way. Instead of being viewed as a device that was desirable and advanced, it was viewed as restrictive, and ultimately being handled by a marketing staff that was fumbling the ball at every opportunity and displaying Sony-PS3 levels of arrogance. But again! At no time was Microsoft forcing anyone to purchase it; but because they weren't forcing anyone to purchase it... well, they found out that not many people were purchasing it. And, once again, what's Microsoft's primary goal?

Microsoft does, yes, have the right to say 'Our Way Or The Highway.' But when enough people start saying; 'Well, Highway It Is!' then the company faces a choice; first, they can either stick to their guns, and try to wait out the market in the hopes that, sooner or later, things will swing back in their favor because their product is so darned awesome. Sony did that with the PS3 in the early days, ignoring warning signs on the Internet, figuring that their device would be so gosh darned wonderful that, sooner or later, people would come to see things their way. This decision pretty much obliterated them in the U.S, because by the time Sony finally gave up their game of Chicken and started their own backpeddles and consumer-coaxing initiatives like PS Plus, Microsoft had gained so much of a lead they were pretty much unstoppable, and continued to hold that lead even after Xbox 360 exclusives were barely trickling out, and almost no Non-Kinect, non-Halo/Forza/Gears/Fable exclusives were being released in over three years.

Microsoft did say it's a marathon, not a sprint, and that's true. However, Microsoft wasn't expecting to be behind at all. This wasn't some master plan, 'Oh, we'll fall behind the PS4 for three years, and after that, BAM. Domination.' They were expecting, from the get-go, far more sales than they've gotten up-to-date, and when they realized they were losing ground, they decided that what they were doing just flat-out wouldn't work.

In conclusion; people have a choice on whether or not to buy something. Lotsa people didn't buy it. That's why Microsoft's changing it. Same as Sony in the PS3 days.

---

2) You've advanced the idea that Microsoft's focus, their vision, was to appeal as an entertainment hub, not simply as a game console. I swear to God, we must have had this discussion before, because you seem familiar, but even if we did, let me reiterate, The Xbox One's chances of succeeding as a game console are far greater than its chances of succeeding as a multimedia device. There are simply too many 'Pure-Blooded' devices, entertainment gizmos that range from being half the price, to one quarter the price of even the Kinectless SKU, for Microsoft to gain any traction in the wider market, and that was their miscalculation. They might have come in 'too early' for an Online-Focused Console, but they came in far too late to release a 'Media Box,' especially one so hilariously overpriced.

Now, If Microsoft released, say, a Kinect camera and enough hardware to handle video streaming and multimedia, maybe even simple indie games, (but none of the big blockbusters like Halo, or whatever, I mean like Ouya-level stuff,) and priced it very competitively, (Say 150, 200 dollars maximum, ideally just 100,) then I can see that device decently doing well in the non-Hardcore-gaming market. That would truly be 'catering to consumers.' The Kinect, the One Guide, they are worthwhile features, and I do think that they could draw in a non-gaming audience. (Although, in your case, I guess it would just be the Kinect, since you mentioned you cut cable.)

But the price. The price. It's a massive ball-and-chain around their ankle, and pretty much guarantees they will get viciously outsold by less feature-rich, but far more affordable, entertainment devices. Beyond Kinect and One Guide, the only real feature the Xbox One has over those FAR cheaper competitors is that it can play big, fancy games, and only gamers are going to care about that.

So, really, the Xbox One SHOULD focus on being a gaming device, because that's the only battle they might actually be able to win.

---

3) Finally, this idea that 'the hardcore gamer's opinion doesn't matter' is, frankly, ludicrous. When it comes to products, especially games or consoles, the most powerful force in advertisement is word-of-mouth, because you are significantly more likely to listen to a friend saying 'You should try this' than television commercial number 204 saying 'You should try this.' All the flashy television commercials in the world can't make a difference if it's not mingled with positive word-of-mouth, with enough regular consumers- which, in this case, would be gamers because why would anyone else have paid attention to the Xbox One before its release day- telling friends and relatives 'This thing is awesome.' On the flip side, one of the most destructive forces to a product's success is when a large enough group of people- and God knows there was a large enough group- decide that a product sucks Donkey Balls, for whatever reason. Because if someone either really really likes, or really really dislikes a product, you can bet your bottom dollar that they're going to express their opinion to everyone they know.

It's like going to a restaurant a few times, finding the food disgusting every single time, and when your friend asks you 'Hey, how about that place you went to last week?' you answer 'Bleeegh.' Chances are good, regardless of how fancy the banner is out front, your friend won't be going because he heard from you that it wasn't worth it.

The Internet has only magnified the power of word-of-mouth, allowing it to stretch across the entire globe, which is why sometimes companies have been caught paying people just to say positive and/or negative things about a certain product online. Enough people doing it, it makes a significant difference.

Just look at what happened! Many Unimportant Gamers hated the PS3, and the PS3 fell into third place, getting outsold what, 30 months STRAIGHT in the U.S., even in the later half of the generation? It was only able to achieve a Global second because of its dominance in Europe and Japan. Many Unimportant Gamers hated the Xbox One, and it's getting outsold by the PS4 in almost every single market, including its strongholds, and in recent months having trouble even outselling the Wii U globally, while the PS4, which plenty of the same Unimportant Gamers deemed the superior product, has catapaulted to first, DESPITE not having many titles on it; it's been propelled by hype and word-of-mouth alone. Heck, Many Unimportant Gamers didn't see the point of the WiiU in the first year, and it sold terribly! Companies don't simply need the individual sales of hardcore gamers, they need- they crave- the positive word-of-mouth that gets more units into the hands of gamers' less-researched friends and associates.

You might disagree with the opinions of gamers, fine, but if the voices decrying your product as shite outweigh the voices saying it's spun gold... don't expect to sell well.


((By the way, I know what you might say; 'But what about the Wii?! That's in first, hardcore gamers weren't all fans of that!' But before you forget, the Wii had a price advantage over its competitors, (which the Xbox One does not,) had an existing Nintendo-loving user base who spread positive word of mouth, (which for the Xbox One would only help in the gaming market, not help it in the wider entertainment market) and was designed to cater to a casual GAMING audience, not a casual entertainment audience.))
 

SeventhSigil

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CaitSeith said:
Nytr8 said:
For starters, We all know what turmoil the xbox 1 went through from its initial reveal under the grip of Don Mattrik, we also know how the company changed the proposition to match what gamers wanted, post Matterik.
hydrolythe said:
If they made what GAMERS wanted they would make a VIDEO GAME MACHINE, NOT A MULTIMEDIA DEVICE.
Microsoft took the gaming market for granted. The Xbox 360 was a hit in the gaming industry, and they supposed that their fan base would always follow them, no matter what (specially hardcore gamers, who eventually buy all the major consoles in each generation). They thought that their next hit would be the multimedia entertainment, and for those who didn't like it, well, "the Xbox 360 would always be there" (they pretty much said that).

They were wrong. Most non-gamers didn't show any interest in the console, and the "unashamed, egotistical, demanding, whining little b1tches, who take no responsibility for their own actions" did what any "unashamed, egotistical, demanding, whining" consumer would do: they looked for an option with their rival company. I just imagine how pale their faces must have gone when Sony made their "How to share a PS4 game" sketch.

A hundred thousand percent this. Any product being released carries with it risk; you take something you think is going to do very, very well, (in this case being the previous Xbox dominance in the U.S., and their line of exclusive titles,) and pair it up with things that you, as a corporation, want to do well (some feature or attachment, like the Kinect) but are concerned won't be well-received, or won't succeed on its own if made optional. Sometimes, you succeed; Microsoft took a gamble on charging to pay for online multiplayer last generation, and the exclusives they released were more than enough to make that gamble pay off, giving them a lucrative secondary source of income. They took a gamble on sticking loads of advertisements in the layout later on in the 7th generation and, again, it paid off and they gained yet another lucrative stream of revenue. Any company, Sony, Microsoft, even Nintendo, will use existing influence and popular features to try and advance untested, or unpopular ones. Stricter paywall, unfriendly indie policies, all of these were things that paid off, because the positives outweighed them.

Sometimes, though, these gambles don't pay off; a feature list, or mandatory peripheral, or correspondingly higher price, gain so much scorn and dislike that it drags down the entire product. The Xbox One's higher price point, the Kinect that plenty of people didn't want, and other bumps in the road gutted their sales potential. At the same time, many indie developers finally had had enough, and Microsoft had to rework their indie policies to keep from missing out on titles that would be going to the PS4 instead.

Microsoft, like many, many other companies, took a gamble. The gamble failed. They are now scrabbling to get back on safe ground, and just like any other company that takes a failed gamble, they're going to be feeling fire singe their arse the entire way back.
 

Atmos Duality

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theApoc said:
The whole issue with always online makes very little sense to me. Half of the devices I use everyday are always online, for very good reason, convenience.
Well, I could dismiss that as anecdotal evidence, but since you're lacking perspective doing so would accomplish little.

So...Always Online.

First, I recognize that some media requires an internet connection. Fine, sometimes that's just the nature of the beast.
But the problem with unilaterally praising always online is that always online is just as much a limitation of a system as it is a benefit. Its dependency on the net makes it as good as one's net connection.

Since internet service can vary GREATLY (even in the primary game markets), you can't logically pitch Always Online as if it were a strictly good thing.

Second, there's the bloody obvious: When a device (or form of media) is reliant on something when it doesn't have to be, that's just bad design.

To be clear, I have no problem with media being offered through the net; I think it's a great option.
But it shouldn't be the only option when it doesn't have to be.

I strive to be a fair man, so I'll throw my own anecdotal experience into this: Steam lets me download games and while I can only get them through the net that dependency did not automatically require a persistent internet connection at all times to play those games.

If there is potential to be explored or conserved through a smarter system, through adaptability, why hold back?

To put this in perspective: You cannot lose any of your convenience as a result of an offline failsafe being present, but I have something to lose if it's taken away. And even if I had excellent internet, I would want a failsafe in place just in case the situation changes.

Incidentally this is why I say the "Always Online is the Future" argument is complete rubbish; it's glorifying a limitation and for all the worst reasons.

As for the move to entertainment hub being foolish, the only people that think that are gamers whose opinion on such matters is questionable at best.
Your attempt at baseless marginalization is not convincing in the slightest.

And since you've demonstrated a history of doing so:
Repeating this "gamers don't matter" ("entertainment device, not game console") line and insisting that it's fact without a shred of evidence to support that claim will only make you look foolish.

Especially in the light of Microsoft infamous 180. They backpedaled their system offer to meet Sony's system at parity. I'd wager the proof you would need doesn't actually exist. At best, you can claim neither system is especially mind blowing, but that's just evidence of two similar systems not being mind blowing.

It isn't evidence that Microsoft's original Xbone was a superior platform or that Microsoft wasn't being foolish with leveraging its brand. Gamers matter to Xbox because Xbox is a gaming brand first and foremost 13 years going.

So save us both some time and cut this marginalization bullshit. You're fooling nobody.

I eliminated cable and pretty much every other device in my living room over a year and a half ago, with my 360 there is no need for anything else, and yes I play games on it as well.
Good for you, but frankly I don't care about what you do with your devices.

"It works for me, so it must work for everyone."
That's just elitism trying (and failing) to pass itself off as reason.
What goes on in your ivory tower does not help me or anyone else.
 

GonzoGamer

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It's very simple. Gamers let MS get away with too much last generation (a 50% fail rate, a fee for online, then raising the fee for online) so for this generation they tried to get away with more. I saw this shit coming towards the fan years ago.
I have to say that I'm surprised that they've felt the need to backpedal this much, if at all. If they got some games with real hype, there are plenty of gamers who would pay $600 for a XBone with a wearable kinekt, sub-dermal tracking chip, and a monthly fee to use the machine in any way.

Do I feel bad for the gamers who got suckered into buying the kinectfull xbone or the devs who decided to support the thing? No. Given MS' track record, they should've known better. Sorry if I can't even bother to get out my miniature violin.
 

CaitSeith

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SeventhSigil said:
CaitSeith said:
Nytr8 said:
For starters, We all know what turmoil the xbox 1 went through from its initial reveal under the grip of Don Mattrik, we also know how the company changed the proposition to match what gamers wanted, post Matterik.
hydrolythe said:
If they made what GAMERS wanted they would make a VIDEO GAME MACHINE, NOT A MULTIMEDIA DEVICE.
Microsoft took the gaming market for granted. The Xbox 360 was a hit in the gaming industry, and they supposed that their fan base would always follow them, no matter what (specially hardcore gamers, who eventually buy all the major consoles in each generation). They thought that their next hit would be the multimedia entertainment, and for those who didn't like it, well, "the Xbox 360 would always be there" (they pretty much said that).

They were wrong. Most non-gamers didn't show any interest in the console, and the "unashamed, egotistical, demanding, whining little b1tches, who take no responsibility for their own actions" did what any "unashamed, egotistical, demanding, whining" consumer would do: they looked for an option with their rival company. I just imagine how pale their faces must have gone when Sony made their "How to share a PS4 game" sketch.

A hundred thousand percent this. Any product being released carries with it risk; you take something you think is going to do very, very well, (in this case being the previous Xbox dominance in the U.S., and their line of exclusive titles,) and pair it up with things that you, as a corporation, want to do well (some feature or attachment, like the Kinect) but are concerned won't be well-received, or won't succeed on its own if made optional. Sometimes, you succeed; Microsoft took a gamble on charging to pay for online multiplayer last generation, and the exclusives they released were more than enough to make that gamble pay off, giving them a lucrative secondary source of income. They took a gamble on sticking loads of advertisements in the layout later on in the 7th generation and, again, it paid off and they gained yet another lucrative stream of revenue. Any company, Sony, Microsoft, even Nintendo, will use existing influence and popular features to try and advance untested, or unpopular ones. Stricter paywall, unfriendly indie policies, all of these were things that paid off, because the positives outweighed them.

Sometimes, though, these gambles don't pay off; a feature list, or mandatory peripheral, or correspondingly higher price, gain so much scorn and dislike that it drags down the entire product. The Xbox One's higher price point, the Kinect that plenty of people didn't want, and other bumps in the road gutted their sales potential. At the same time, many indie developers finally had had enough, and Microsoft had to rework their indie policies to keep from missing out on titles that would be going to the PS4 instead.

Microsoft, like many, many other companies, took a gamble. The gamble failed. They are now scrabbling to get back on safe ground, and just like any other company that takes a failed gamble, they're going to be feeling fire singe their arse the entire way back.
Whenever I cross the street there is a risk. But if I cross the street without seeing the signs, without checking the red lights, without walking on the crossing path, or without looking at both sides before crossing, I increase the risk and rely more and more in luck to cross safetely. This isn't a black and white question. It's a question of how much they pushed their luck. And the answer is: too far this time. None of the previous things were so incovenient (or looked like a one-sided deal) for their average consumers than the always online DRM, lack of support of used games and Kinect always included, always enabled. Xbox is a game console brand. Xbox One was revealed to have gaming just as a secondary function.

And, the Kinect... why? Kinect was a lame experience for most gamers, and that made Kinect 2 a disaster for XB1. I know that if at first you don't succeed, try again; but I also know that doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. For the consumers, Kinect and Kinect 2 were the same thing; and Microsoft did nothing to make clear it had been improved (kinda sounds like they didn't learn that from Nintendo's marketing mistake).
 

Aurion

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Sseth said:
I don't really understand this episode. Microsoft are liars. Okay. The Xbox One backpedaled. Okay... Personally I'm not even that cynical, they tried one route and it didn't work for them so they changed its course back towards something that works. And then like any sane company they covered it under heaps of PR and misinformation. To think that any other company wouldn't do the same thing is just plain ignorant. So why is this such a big deal?
I like how you literally recited almost the entire point of the episode (Microsoft is trying to roll in good press after blatantly lying about how the Xbox One worked) immediately after saying you didn't understand the point of the episode.

Microsoft saw what the consumer base wanted, and the consumer base didn't buy the Xbox One until it got what it wanted. Why does it matter that they did what every other major corporation that's a huge part of the market does? What matters is that the message is clear; we won't buy your console until we like what we see.
Maybe because they sold people a gigantic bill of goods about the Xbox One and the Kinect, and maybe they shouldn't get a free pass for doing so?

I'm really baffled honestly. If you're still driven by the honesty of Nintendo or Microsoft or Sony when choosing your console you're a moron and you should learn to be pragmatic instead. Because they all do the same thing and you'll just be screaming "SONY ARE LIARS DON'T BUY THE PS5" when the next company fucks up.
And now you're just haring off into the great beyond.

This just seems like pointless, try-hard idealism to me.
Yes, calling people out on lies is pointless, try-hard idealism. Wisdom indeed.
 

GonzoGamer

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Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
The 360 has about a 20% failure rate, not 50%. Some people are just super unlucky.
Is that what it is Now? Because I remember them taking years to fix the problem and around the time they fixed the thing, it was determined that it had a 50% defect rate. I think I read the article here in fact; can't imagine where else.

Granted it's not like your buying GM (a RROD 360 never killed anyone), but regardless of what the actual percentage was, they let that crap go on for way too long.
 

Atmos Duality

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theApoc said:
Again, what they said was the XBOX ONE needed Kinect to be 100% functional.
Actually that's not true.
They said the XBONE needed to be connected to be functional at all.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/05/21/xbox-one-will-not-function-without-kinect-attached

M$'s exact words from their marketing event:
Harvey Eagle said:
"Kinect does require to be connected to Xbox One in all cases, yes."
Not "some cases", not "most cases"; ALL cases.
Literally, the only way to interpret that is that the Xbone will not work without the Kinect.
 

CaitSeith

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Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
CaitSeith said:
Microsoft took the gaming market for granted. The Xbox 360 was a hit in the gaming industry, and they supposed that their fan base would always follow them, no matter what (specially hardcore gamers, who eventually buy all the major consoles in each generation). They thought that their next hit would be the multimedia entertainment, and for those who didn't like it, well, "the Xbox 360 would always be there" (they pretty much said that).
That is incorrect. They literally said that. "Well if you don't have internet we have another device called the Xbox 360"
LOL. Much worse.
 

theApoc

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Atmos Duality said:
theApoc said:
Again, what they said was the XBOX ONE needed Kinect to be 100% functional.
Actually that's not true.
They said the XBONE needed to be connected to be functional at all.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/05/21/xbox-one-will-not-function-without-kinect-attached

M$'s exact words from their marketing event:
Harvey Eagle said:
"Kinect does require to be connected to Xbox One in all cases, yes."
Not "some cases", not "most cases"; ALL cases.
Literally, the only way to interpret that is that the Xbone will not work without the Kinect.
And when it launched neither of those two things were true. They wanted you to use the device, and they wanted a device connected to the network. There were some very good reasons for both.
 

theApoc

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Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
theApoc said:
Atmos Duality said:
theApoc said:
They really just caved to critics like Jim, and will now just delay the inevitable. The kinect or something like it will become ubiquitous in peoples homes and no one is going to think twice.
Ah yes. Just like Always Online, "it's inevitable".
As inevitable as cancer, and just as welcome.

Entertainment console. For all of the claims that they lied about XBOX ONE, it has been presented a a multi-media hub from day one.
A move that was supremely foolish given the Xbox's history as a gaming brand.
The whole issue with always online makes very little sense to me. Half of the devices I use everyday are always online, for very good reason, convenience.

As for the move to entertainment hub being foolish, the only people that think that are gamers whose opinion on such matters is questionable at best. I eliminated cable and pretty much every other device in my living room over a year and a half ago, with my 360 there is no need for anything else, and yes I play games on it as well.
You are wrong in both of your main points.

No device requires an always on connection if they can avoid it. Xbone required it for single player games, therefore, it was a poorly designed system. Coincidentally, they changed it back because the system had like 1/10th the pre-orders of the PS4. It was being utterly crushed by its only competitor simply because it lacked the 'features' of the Xbone.
Half of the games you play require an online connection to play properly. Seriously. While it is possible to play everything offline, you are not able to play 100% of pretty much any game released these days without a connection. Point being. There is a good reason for connectivity and it has nothing to do with screwing over the customer. And they removed the constant connection requirement because of nonsense like the things Jim posted in this video.
 

Atmos Duality

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theApoc said:
And when it launched neither of those two things were true.
Gee, it's almost as if Microsoft changed the system because signs pointed to their target market not wanting it.

In any case, that proves Microsoft was full of shit when they said the XBONE needed Kinect to function in all cases.
It certainly wasn't system-critical if its requirement could just be patched out on day 1.

They wanted you to use the device, and they wanted a device connected to the network. There were some very good reasons for both.
Well good on them for having a unique vision, but practicality trumps convenience.
Especially when that convenience demands you make practical concessions for no good reason.

Half of the games you play require an online connection to play properly. Seriously. While it is possible to play everything offline, you are not able to play 100% of pretty much any game released these days without a connection.
And even then most of those same games aren't online for 100% of their content.

In fact, most online interactions are spurred on by the player as a mode. Very few games can actually claim to offer both online and offline while being mainly about the online bits (only the super-popular shooters like CoD, and previously Halo; yet even those examples still offered extensive offline content).

In any case, they still should not require 100% internet connection just to function AT ALL.

From an engineering standpoint: Better for something to function in the state one can always assume is possible than the state one cannot.

And they removed the constant connection requirement because of nonsense like the things Jim posted in this video.
If such "nonsense" leads to retaining practical functionality, then that's the kind of "nonsense" the market needs more of.
Progress only occurs when the needs of supply and demand can be met while pushing development forward.