Jimquisition: Tomodachi Strife

10BIT

New member
Sep 14, 2008
349
0
0
grimner said:
10BIT said:
Dragonbums said:
Goddammit Jim. You got the info of the bug wrong, you got the nature of the statement wrong, you got everything fucking wrong...
GODDAMN THIS!
Except he spent the bulk of the video tearing down the statement Nintendo made, which was did not say that the bug was potentially game and console breaking, it said that including same sex options would have been "social commentary".


The strawman is actually on Nintendo on this one.
Except Nintendo never made the statement Jim spent the bulk of the video tearing down. When they said "We did not want to provide social commentary" they meant "The game was patched to remove game breaking bugs and has no basis on our views about homosexual lifestyles", not, as Jim insinuated, "The game was patched because we were unwilling to depict homosexuals as normal".

The strawman is actually on Jim - and the vast majority of games "journalists" - on this one.
 

lionday

New member
Jun 21, 2011
80
0
0
10BIT said:
grimner said:
10BIT said:
Dragonbums said:
Goddammit Jim. You got the info of the bug wrong, you got the nature of the statement wrong, you got everything fucking wrong...
GODDAMN THIS!
Except he spent the bulk of the video tearing down the statement Nintendo made, which was did not say that the bug was potentially game and console breaking, it said that including same sex options would have been "social commentary".


The strawman is actually on Nintendo on this one.
Except Nintendo never made the statement Jim spent the bulk of the video tearing down. When they said "We did not want to provide social commentary" they meant "The game was patched to remove game breaking bugs and has no basis on our views about homosexual lifestyles", not, as Jim insinuated, "The game was patched because we were unwilling to depict homosexuals as normal".

The strawman is actually on Jim - and the vast majority of games "journalists" - on this one.
This.
Thank you.
When I first read the quote my reaction was " Well it's obvious they're talking about the bug and how it's removal was not based on gay marriage it was just them fixing a broken product."
But you know it's sad.
This game probably won't get a sequel, which means any chance of the game actually getting gay marriage added to it is also up in the air.
This also might put a stop to Nintendo releasing more Japan exclusives globally.

( Also I played fire emblem and while you could take it as playing another character you could also play it as an embodiment of yourself. )
 

Eve Charm

New member
Aug 10, 2011
760
0
0
grimner said:
Except it did:

"Nintendo never intended to make any form of social commentary with the launch of 'Tomodachi Life'. The relationship options in the game represent a playful alternate world rather than a real-life simulation. We hope that all of our fans will see that 'Tomodachi Life' was intended to be a whimsical and quirky game, and that we were absolutely not trying to provide social commentary."

And this statement was in reply to a petition asking for same sex relationships to be included. The best response they gave about that issue was,

"The ability for same-sex relationships to occur in the game was not part of the original game that launched in Japan, and that game is made up of the same code that was used to localize it for other regions outside of Japan,"
Source: AP
Really did they address the petition like that or the social justice blob screaming Nintendo is a bunch of bigots for patching out gay marriage? See that your source is AP not #miiquailty there.

For frig sake do people really expect NINTENDO of all people to get same sex marriage right? I get what people want but it's not fair to expect throwing everyone into the mine field that is controversy willing and set off more because things like someone couldn't figure out if one should wear a dress or not. The "default" marriage since people want to throw what should be default around here, is till hetero, it's easy to paint a picture of a hetero and marriage and life style that is at very least, accepting to people. It's not easy for the other way, and especially when a feature is "have a child and send it to other's games" can get pretty good damn shakey pretty damn fast. They need a lot more time and effort AND MONEY to do more then the default, and whatever life this game is doesn't get the AAA budget and timeline the other games like the sims, dragon age and mass effect had while the last two it was more a minor point, when it would be a more major point here.
 

McMarbles

New member
May 7, 2009
1,566
0
0
lionday said:
10BIT said:
grimner said:
10BIT said:
Dragonbums said:
Goddammit Jim. You got the info of the bug wrong, you got the nature of the statement wrong, you got everything fucking wrong...
GODDAMN THIS!
Except he spent the bulk of the video tearing down the statement Nintendo made, which was did not say that the bug was potentially game and console breaking, it said that including same sex options would have been "social commentary".


The strawman is actually on Nintendo on this one.
Except Nintendo never made the statement Jim spent the bulk of the video tearing down. When they said "We did not want to provide social commentary" they meant "The game was patched to remove game breaking bugs and has no basis on our views about homosexual lifestyles", not, as Jim insinuated, "The game was patched because we were unwilling to depict homosexuals as normal".

The strawman is actually on Jim - and the vast majority of games "journalists" - on this one.
This.
Thank you.
When I first read the quote my reaction was " Well it's obvious they're talking about the bug and how it's removal was not based on gay marriage it was just them fixing a broken product."
But you know it's sad.
This game probably won't get a sequel, which means any chance of the game actually getting gay marriage added to it is also up in the air.
This also might put a stop to Nintendo releasing more Japan exclusives globally.

( Also I played fire emblem and while you could take it as playing another character you could also play it as an embodiment of yourself. )
The game was a big hit in Japan. There WILL be a sequel. Localization's a different matter (and probably why Tye told everyone not to boycott the game in the first place).
 

Loonyyy

New member
Jul 10, 2009
1,292
0
0
erbkaiser said:
Oh yes Nintendo is horrible because as a Japanese company, it applies Japanese cultural norms to a game.

Nintendo is of course also "racist" against Muslims, since this game does not allow marriages with little children (as the Prophet with Aisha), or plural marriages (a basic islamic right).


Edit: since some people are incapable of detecting sarcasm even if I use "quotes" to make sure it is obvious: this is sarcasm.
Sarcasm or no, comparing marrying children to marrying adults of the same sex is reprehensible. Whether or not Nintendo was being homophobic, justifications like this are.
 

Bara_no_Hime

New member
Sep 15, 2010
3,646
0
0
I'm not even going to try reading this thread. It will either disappoint me or it won't, and I'd rather err on the side of feeling happy today.

I do want to say one thing, though.

Thank you, Jim, for once again saying what needed to be said, and for saying it extremely well. Including same-sex options is not catering or inclusion for inclusion sake - at this point, it should be the default.

So, once again, I thank the gods for you and your video. Well said.
 

hazydawn

New member
Jan 11, 2013
237
0
0
10BIT said:
Except Nintendo never made the statement Jim spent the bulk of the video tearing down. When they said "We did not want to provide social commentary" they meant "The game was patched to remove game breaking bugs and has no basis on our views about homosexual lifestyles", not, as Jim insinuated, "The game was patched because we were unwilling to depict homosexuals as normal".

The strawman is actually on Jim - and the vast majority of games "journalists" - on this one.
Hilarious. How far are you willing to bend their words to make an excuse for them? I guess you'd even defend them if they outright said: "Homosexuals are gross. That's why."

Matthewmagic said:
As a gay man.

I don't find the failure to include homosexuals in Tomodachi Life that big of deal....
As a gay man, I find your opinion simple minded. There, I cancelled out your gay influence.
 

Dragonbums

Indulge in it's whiffy sensation
May 9, 2013
3,307
0
0
Darmani said:
TBF you're getting a sample of what its like for the gay fans and people having to repeatedly assert or deal with myths, misinformation, or discrimination for a society that doesn't as actively disdain them. [http://www.cracked.com/article_21129_5-shocking-ways-society-still-doesnt-understand-gay-people_p2.html](2nd and 3rd points especially) Which is kind of why this blew up. In something so trivial activism is necessary to express themselves and be acknowledged as normal. and that can make you feel excluded for something private even in your own life or enjoyment.
I agree that activism is necessary. But the way it's been gone about in this scenario is- in my opinion- really destructive behavior.

Nothing shoots down a movement for anything faster than the realization that your entire campaign against a company/person/entity is based upon misinformation that nobody bothered to fact check.


(I have a feeling that I already replied to this? Did I?)
 

Dragonbums

Indulge in it's whiffy sensation
May 9, 2013
3,307
0
0
hazydawn said:
No country? You talk about it like it's a fucking unit that has it's own mind.
Isn't that basically what a country is? A collective of people within a continent/region with distinct boundaries in that land that have a primarily uniform type of government. The individuals themselves might have different opinions. What is a country to you exactly?



Many people genuinely believed that black people were subhuman and felt justyfied by their law, religion and community.
I'm black myself and you think I didn't know that? The first people to enslave black people knew fucking well it was immoral. The same can't be said for their offspring whom they've taken great care to brainwash them with that crap to keep up their multi million dollar business of slave labor. Which is half the reason why slavery in Britain ended a lot earlier than it did in America.



Doesn't fucking matter how many people or what authority believes something is moral or immoral though.
But that does matter because morality is not something that is objective. It is entirely subjective to the society and culture within it. It was not immoral 300 years ago to burn women at the stakes for the flimsy claim of Witchery.

It was not immoral back in the Roman days to use slaves and prisoners of war as human fighting animals in mega arenas for their own enjoyment.

I'm not sure what your argument here is supposed to be or what you want to express. Because Japan's culture isn't as open minded towards homosexuality as ours it is not fair to judge them or hold them to our standards?
You were the one who stated that countries where there is zero tolerance for homosexuality would never have people in it who thought that maybe gay people aren't disgusting others that need to be purged. To which that I replied that's pretty hypocritical to state such considering how not even a generation ago we literally had that same mindset. I even brought up that a lot of killing happened to gay people here before they finally had a leg to stand on.

As for what this has to do with Japan, they are close minded on the aspect of marriage of gay couples. They aren't any more close minded about the issue as we are. But we just like to take the moral high ground because a few states in our entire country has legalized gay marriage. That's really about it.



I wouldn't call them bigots and they're unlikely anti-homosexuality in the way that they actively seek to harm.
Yet they are contributing to a societal problem by reiterating and thereby reinforcing heteronormativity. (Yeah, I just used that again. I'm too lazy to paraphrase.)
Also Ophenix's answer to your comment is pretty good at explaining why in this instance it is bad :p
Yes they are simply reinforcing the norm. But again you can't get that upset about it when you consider that the environment they are in when making this game in a Japanese only audience where gay marriage is illegal. If you guys and the people of Japan manage to make gay marriage illegal then you would have something to get really mad about in this instance.

However the way I see it- getting mad that Nintendo refuses to be your political crusader machine for Western based ideals in a game for an Eastern country only isn't going to get you anywhere and you might as well be wasting your breath.
 

Dragonbums

Indulge in it's whiffy sensation
May 9, 2013
3,307
0
0
MarsAtlas said:
Dragonbums said:
I agree that activism is necessary. But the way it's been gone about in this scenario is- in my opinion- really destructive behavior.

Nothing shoots down a movement for anything faster than the realization that your entire campaign against a company/person/entity is based upon misinformation that nobody bothered to fact check.
Its based on Nintendo's response to Miiquality, so not really. People were upset over the statement, not what happened over a year ago. Miiquality didn't even bring that bug thing up, and Jim quickly glossed over it, incorrectly, but never actually made a point of using it in his argument. He was arguing over the response to Miiquality, not to the response from a patch from a year ago.
The misinformation of the patch was 90% of the reason why it blew up in the first place. There was nothing controversial about the statement. It was the same thing Nintendo stated in their "apology" only with less confusion.


The majority of the headliners in regards to this issue revolved around claiming that "Nintendo says no to gay marriage" "Nintendo's exclusion of homosexuality is Erasure" blah blah blah.

All of that came about due to the mistranslation and misunderstanding of the bug and the subsequent patching out of said bug which people claimed was to get rid of gay marriage when the option itself was two unrelated things.

So yes, the bug misunderstanding played a humongous role in the shitstorm that came about. Not Nintendo's response to Miiquality.
 

Dragonbums

Indulge in it's whiffy sensation
May 9, 2013
3,307
0
0
MarsAtlas said:
I know you won't learn why it was, in fact, a controversial statement since you don't understand how bivalent logic functions,
Or maybe it's because different people interpret messages different and in this case I didn't see the message as an affront to gay people as many others have deemed to translate it as.



And no, the reaction was less about the patch from last year and more about the statement from a few days ago.

That would hold water if it were not for the fact that half the articles regarding this issue still talk about how the bug was patched out because it had gay marriage in it.

Yes, because all of those are accurate. Rewatch the Miiquality mission statement.
I've watched and linked the video several times in this on this topic.


Didn't mention the bug mishap or anything,
Because unlike the rest of the people who went with his campaign he had fucking common sense and fact checking to top it off and knew that Nintendo never had gay marriage in the first place.




just asked Nintendo to take notice and consider adding it to the game in a patch or in future installments.
Which is exactly what they said in response to Tye.


Nintendo's statement did say no to gay marriage, because they're not looking to "provide social commentary", and same-sex relationships are "social commentary".
That's now what it meant. And we argued about this already. When they made the game and didn't include same sex marriage they didn't do that with any intention of stating that they- as a corporate entity- do not support gay marriage. Their game wasn't made for the sole purpose of making a political statement.



That was a year ago and none of the articles mentioning Nintendo's response to Miiquality dredged it up. Its "erasure" not because of the patch, but because they're were deliberately and blatantly saying no to same-sex relations when a group of people came up to them and asked them for it.
Yes. The patch had a fucking lot to do with the whole issue. I'm amazed that you say this when half the articles you see right now directly talk about the patch.

You might as well call 90% of games in existence and the studios behind them anti homosexual because they include straight relationships and not gay ones. That would mean GTA 5 and to extension Rock* games are against homosexuality because in the game you can fuck women but you can't fuck men.

You honestly need to take a step back from this whole discussion. Because these are the kinds of reactions that got us in this mess in the first place.

I know that I certainly never used the basis of the bug for my arguments against Nintendo,
Your argument is not the entire representation for the larger argument as a whole.



when erring people were corrected, they still found a lot wrong with Nintendo's statement.
The worst people called it was a PR blunder. Only the more extreme individuals went out of their way to state that it was an ultimatum that Nintendo are bigots and anti homosexual rights.
 

Eve Charm

New member
Aug 10, 2011
760
0
0
MarsAtlas said:
Eve Charm said:
See that your source is AP not #miiquailty there.
Thats because Nintendo's response was to the Associated Press, not directly to Miiquality. Check out the Miiquality tumblr and twitter feeds if you don't believe thats true.

http://miiquality.tumblr.com/
https://twitter.com/Miiquality
did nintendo themselves get on twitter or tumblr to reply? cause all I see is links to nintendo's site about the news.


For frig sake do people really expect NINTENDO of all people to get same sex marriage right?
...yes? That kind of was a lot of the basis of Jim's video - that at this point in time to exclude homosexuality is making a bigger statement than it isto include it, that it should be the standard by now. This game is being localized for North America, which includes Canada, a country that is well ahead of the United States when it comes to gay rights, and the United States itself, which the majority of the population is in favour same-sex marriage, and within the next few years it will be legal nationwide due to the Prop 8 ruling being applied in Supreme Courts of other states as we speak, and it'll become legal that way if it isn't used in the federal Supreme Court first.
Something that is entirely subjective to where you live and who you are, this game was made a year ago not within the next few years. I don't disagree that in time things won't bet better, hell even nintendo said they were going to in future releases.

I get what people want but it's not fair to expect throwing everyone into the mine field that is controversy willing and set off more because things like someone couldn't figure out if one should wear a dress or not.
That still wouldn't actually be same-sex marriage though. Thats like saying to somebody who wants their character in Animal Crossing to not be white "Hey, you can kinda sorta not be white if you leave your game on for five hours during the summer months". Its the facade of it, but not the actual thing.

The "default" marriage since people want to throw what should be default around here, is still hetero, it's easy to paint a picture of a hetero and marriage and life style that is at very least, accepting to people.
Accepting of heterosexual people. Exclusive of gay people. I don't see how somebody can't understand that. Its like if somebody gave the option to have a religion in the game, but there's only one religion they can be associated with.

It's not easy for the other way, and especially when a feature is "have a child and send it to other's games" can get pretty good damn shakey pretty damn fast.

They need a lot more time and effort AND MONEY to do more then the default,
So does creating a second gender for Miis. So does creating different skin tones for Miis. So does creating clothes. So does creating a relationship function in the game in the first place. So does creating a night and day cycle. So does creating multiple locales. Costs go into making the game, period, and something like this should be considered part of the acceptable costs of making the game. Otherwise, we'd all be playing a come-to-life version of DLC Quest.
Well I don't even believe this game even has a day or night cycle for starters. it's just a bunch of stuff thrown together. Also they are using mii's something that already existed and different skin tones already existed for mii's, so did genders. The only thing they really added on it's own is clothing that they didn't limit to either gender at all. On the subject of religion isn't not believing in including gods or deities atheism that is a religion basically in it's own right? So don't feel like the only one not included in their barebones game.
 

Dragonbums

Indulge in it's whiffy sensation
May 9, 2013
3,307
0
0
hazydawn said:
Yes, that's what it is (your second sentence). Yes, the individuals have different opinions. Which is exactly the reason why a country does not have a unitary opinion on something as you made it out to be.
When did I ever make it out to be like that? You said that countries where homosexuality is banned have people in there who never once thought that such an act was bad due to their upbringing. Which I replied stating that there are people within those countries who think so- they just don't have a leg to stand on at the current moment.

How the fuck was I supposed to know that you are black? So what's with the style of this question? And if you knew that what the fuck was your last argument on this supposed to be where you tried to make a distinction because "Many people genuinely believe (homosexuality) [is] immoral and deviant behavior."
Are you honestly reading my posts or are you just making reactionary replies?

The whole point of that post was that a lot more people were very aware of the fact that slavery was a shitty thing to do period. The same can not be said for homosexuality. Where most people see it as deviant behavior on par of bestiality.

Congratulations you're living in a world of utter moral relativity.
That's how it's always been dude. You think I don't know what moral relativity is?






Or maybe what currently is considered to be lawful? Either way your going with the trend and don't think for yourself. Let's say you were a slave back in the day and wanted to flee from your master to archieve freedom.

Why, then you'd have acted immoral because by the law you were his property and forbidden to do so. Probably not happy with that example either because everyone secretly knew that slavery was wrong, correct?
Yes. According to law what I'm doing is indeed illegal. However the other wonderful thing about moral relativism is that the people within it do and have changed their perceptions on what they once thought was morally sound. Then again you are also ignoring the fact that the Founding Fathers have long since acknowledged how hypocrtical they were in doing such a thing in the first place.

You are a joke.
Oh my good sir. You not need to compliment me.



Oh, please show me where I made such a claim.
Sure thing.

You say I come to this moral judgement because I'm from a Western Culture. Which is true in the way that it allowed me to get in contact with certain ideas and arguments I wouldn't have been able to if I came from other places.





I'm taking the moral high ground because of my opinion which isn't exactly in keeping with the law, not because of what my country is currently doing.
But you also stated as quoted above that those opinions would never come to you have you of been brought up in a country where certain thoughts aren't allowed. So it's clear that although the laws themselves in the legal sense inhibit certain actions, the environment in which you were raised in would mean that the country as a whole has become so lenient that they had no issues wit you or other people to develop this idea to the point of a full fledged opinion.

Getting mad at them, creating controversy and voting with your wallet is the only language companies understand.
Not like it would do anything to Nintendo in this instance. They make more than enough money on this game in Japan. If it fails in the West then they lose little money over it. They simply keep it in Japan like it's always been.




You're starting to really disgust me and I'm getting the impression that you are not able to employ logic, so this will be my last response to you.
Sorry that differing opinions that don't simply revolve yourself and actually takes into account the global context disgusts you.

Would it help if I said you don't disgust me in the slightest? No? Oh well.

Then again you seem to talk down to me like I don't really know what I'm talking about.
If you can't respect the person your arguing with then you honestly are better off making rant blogs on Tumblr than having a "discussion" on a thread. Where it's expected to have people with dissenting views from you.

EDIT: Actually to clarify on the whole slavery bit, it's important not to confuse something that is unlawful with something that is immoral. They are two separate things. There is certainly an overlap between the two. Slaves running away from their owners and plantations was considered unlawful. But for those whose bottom dollar wasn't on the line, or were horrid racists they wouldn't see it as immoral.

But now you have other cases where bestiality is unlawful (well for the most part I guess) because it is considered immoral.

That's why homosexuality is in a tough spot. For a lot of the Western world we have shown for the most part that there is nothing immoral about being gay. The next step is to take down the laws that also make homosexuality unlawful. However it's not easy to do that when countries that have banned homosexuality entirely have a large populace of people that want it that way because they think it's immoral to back them up.
 

Cybylt

New member
Aug 13, 2009
284
0
0
Something probably worth mentioning about the game... it's not a life sim, nor is it a thing of self expression ala Animal Crossing or Sims. In fact, you lack control or agency outside of the minigames. It's a stream of japanese daytime television sight gags with your miis injected into it.

http://gamasutra.com/blogs/ChristianNutt/20140508/217351/Understanding_Nintendos_Tomodachi_Life_problem.php

Pretty good article explaining it, and discussing the issue at hand.