Sonya from mortal Kombat would like to have a word with you. Also, a nice chunk of the DOTA and LoL women may have something to say.
Jimquisition: Vertigo
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
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Ellie's as cute as a bug. She'll be smoking hot in her 20s.Steve2911 said:
There are so many ways they could have made an awkward-looking girl of her age, and she doesn't even have any scars from her dangerous life. I thought that was one of Jim's best points - the contrast between the grizzled, scarred war veteran males, and the women who somehow emerge without a scratch and often don't even need armour.
Though Ellie does have a great personality and is an interestingly-developed character. But agreed on the fact that you only play her for a small part of the game, you mostly see her through Joel's eyes, and much of her role is to help Joel get over his emotional issues, to "fix" the wounded man.
Want to put that to the test?clinicalPsychologist said:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mightyno9/mighty-no-9/posts/611851
Those are possible designs for the Mighty No. 9 heroine. They are letting supporters vote on the design they use. I guarantee you will see very few votes for A or B (the more nerdy looking character). F or H will almost certainly win. I love to see the results based on gender of the contributor. I'll bet the percentages show women voting for the same things the men are.
I think the amount of clothes a character has is definitely relevant. Why there weren't any half-naked male characters? Though the Amazon and Jack are unconventional, they are definitely still attractive. Your 20-30 years old with a body that could go on any playboy or men's magazine.Ukomba said:
I thought this one through and you're right, Lucca deserves a position as strong non-attractive character
So, the list is growing(from the games i've played): Amaterasu, Ellie, Lucca. Shale looks very interesting
Years of experience playing tabletop role-playing games has led me to the firm conclusion that very few people, male or female, want play games where their characters are considered physically unpleasant in appearance, or even outright repulsive. Even when the physical appearance of their character has little to no bearing on what their character actually gets up to during the game the overwhelming majority of people will make the deliberate choice to play a character of perfectly average physical appearance. This is as evident in the video game industry as it is on the table-top. Characters such as Kratos or Marcus Fenix are not guys who're going to win the title of 'Most Eligible Bachelor Of The Year', but they're definitely not physically ugly by any stretch of the imagination. Even Jim's laughable example of a female dinosaur is still a fairly typical average example of what you'd expect a dinosaur to look like given the graphical limitations at the time of the game's release. If Jim is going to arbitrarily exclude physically-fit women with unmarked faces from contention in his little game of musical chairs , of course all he's going to be left with a long forgotten female dinosaur from the early nineties that nobody still gives a shit about. Apply the same test to male characters and all you'd be left with a proportionately larger pool of cultural detritus.
It's actually fascinating how few examples you find.
The problem is really how to interpret the "conventional beauty" thing. Beauty is such a subjective thing, You can stretch that to anything you like.
Are there weight limit, and if yes, how high and low do you set them? What about age? How do you count scars, or missing limbs? How about tomboys, masculine or androgynous females? What if a character is sexy, but you never see it?
A female character doesn't need to be ugly or a lizard to be interesting, either, it just forces the writers to come up with more character traits or motivations than "having tits".
The problem is really how to interpret the "conventional beauty" thing. Beauty is such a subjective thing, You can stretch that to anything you like.
Are there weight limit, and if yes, how high and low do you set them? What about age? How do you count scars, or missing limbs? How about tomboys, masculine or androgynous females? What if a character is sexy, but you never see it?
A female character doesn't need to be ugly or a lizard to be interesting, either, it just forces the writers to come up with more character traits or motivations than "having tits".
Um.... Jim? Have you just completely ignored...
Yep, still surprised you completely missed this individual Jim. She breaks every mold about female protagonists and is a modern hero. But not surprised since I actually am having trouble finding an image of her.
Platinum Robo from Wonderful 101? Who is a former woman who sacrificed her life to protect the entire planet by sending her conscience into a computer? Who did so without looking up at a husband or any other scientist? She was literally the most intelligent person on the planet who also had a son. You get to play as her to show how badass she is by fist fighting other giant robots and a call back game to Space Harrier. She is not fit looking. Breaks the mold of what you would expect a female robot to look like. And is a complete badass in every form by pushing herself to the limits constantly. I am actually quite surprised you have ignored her Jim.
Yep, still surprised you completely missed this individual Jim. She breaks every mold about female protagonists and is a modern hero. But not surprised since I actually am having trouble finding an image of her.
I would argue that the problem is that men are 9 times out of 10 idiots, utterly incapable of recognizing a woman as average looking - every female is attractive unless they're physically repulsive in some way.
...Then again, even the women I'm told are 'smoking hot' just register as 'meh, she's okay' for me, so maybe there's some perspective I'm lacking.
True, Death Prophet isn't traditionally attractive... though she IS dressed primarily in rags...
...Then again, even the women I'm told are 'smoking hot' just register as 'meh, she's okay' for me, so maybe there's some perspective I'm lacking.
Have you ever SEEN Sonya? I am amazed police regulations let her get away with that much cleavage.Depulcator said:
True, Death Prophet isn't traditionally attractive... though she IS dressed primarily in rags...
You just described Pain Wheel.Not G. Ivingname said:Fits perfectly. Hooray for murderous cartoons.
This may or may not count, depending on what Jim meant by "doing it for a man." Could easily be a deconstruction of this motivation, since she really, REALLY hates being mind @#$^ed into doing what Brain Drain wants.
Double seeks only to find a 'suitable' candidate for the Skull Heart, and by suitable I mean some one who is perfectly fine with killing every one, to which Marie is to busy trying to wipe out the mob to do.
People are having fun arguing over the 'sexy/not sexy' part of your question so I thought I'd talk about the MMO part. The reason he excludes the player created characters from this list is because he's using this to critique the gaming industry writers. A lot of writers are actually pretty good at creating strong "blank canvas" characters. The problem rises when the writers expect a particular gender. They can write decent strong male characters, they can write strong blank characters that could just as easily be a female, but the very second they actually decide that the character HAS TO BE female the writing style changes. She has to falling for a man, she has to have a tortured past, she has to be brutally beaten, tortured, raped, or all three to "build character."Monxeroth said:
The Saints Row guys aren't the best example (because they do let us have any spectrum female want) but it still fits; they didn't write a game with a female character in mind. Any time my female character in SR3 blew up a bank or made out with a chick (woo diversity!) it wasn't because they had specifically written a strong woman. More so, all the activities I did actually felt like they were designed explicitly for dudes, but at the last moment I gutted one out and replaced it with a chick. I had inadvertently created the most kickass LGBT character, but it was ME who had decided that, not the guys. They laid a surprisingly good framework for it, but the intention was not purely "let's make a competent female character."
My favorite female character of the last gen was surprisingly Fang from FFXIII, but it turns out the only reason she is so BAMF and caring for Vanille-the-whiney-useless-ditzball is because she was originally written as a man, and Vanille's love interest. It took a massive character team years to write these two heavily interconnected characters, but the only reason one is so whiney while the other isn't is because at the very last minute they had an epiphany, "Wait a minute, what if we had a character that was strong and a family caretaker that WASN'T a guy?" The team themselves have stated that they did this solely because Fang and Vanille as a hetero couple simply weren't interesting.
TL; DR
The cheat-iest way to make a good female character is just to not care that they are female. The real way that will take a long time for people to learn is just to recognize that females can do whatever they want and people will actually enjoy it.
The dwarf is just as unclothed as the Amazon.franksands said:
I'm sure people can find what ever they want attractive. There are some guys who are into amputees, so they'd find Gaige from Border Lands 2 all kinds of hot.
The challenge was to find unconventional female characters. If the female is bald, or over muscled, covered in scars or tattoos, that puts them outside the convention of perfect skin, perfect hair, and the classic hourglass figure. When I got the option, I put Jack into much more concealing cloths because I thought she looked better. I'd cover the Amazon up more if I could.
Not always. If something is in great supply, and particularly at low cost, people may use that excessively and for less-than ideal purposes, even if they want something better for the job. Or in some cases, people might not even be aware of what alternatives are available, that they might prefer if they were given the option.Rastrelly said:
Markets and the interaction between supply and demand are much more complex than you make it out to be.
Well, if there's a market for playing as a shady, unattractive middle aged woman who've turned to anarchist beliefs because of a fascination with Nietzsche's philosophy, such product will surely come about. I've yet to see a commercial industry turn down making something that consumers would love to throw money at.
However, maybe the actual desire for such a thing is in fact exceedingly uncommon, and the theoretical discussion mostly the result of a vocal minority out to push its moralistic agenda upon the gaming industry. Though it is of course none of its business what other customers enjoy, and receive proportionately to the willingness to actually pay for it.
However, maybe the actual desire for such a thing is in fact exceedingly uncommon, and the theoretical discussion mostly the result of a vocal minority out to push its moralistic agenda upon the gaming industry. Though it is of course none of its business what other customers enjoy, and receive proportionately to the willingness to actually pay for it.
Nah, she just asks that female villains not have their entire personality and look be 'is a sexpot with hints of BDSM'.Metalix Knightmare said:
Of course, people interpreting her saying that as saying women shouldn't be villains is not a surprise... people like to deliberately misinterpret her words and say she said things she didn't.
I was looking at League and they have a lot of strong female characters... except a lot of them have some odd sexual fetish skin (or are just conventionally... ugh).
Riven - Tomboy in broken armor... playboy bunny
Vayne - Batman... with some Valentine's day stripper getup
Caitlyn - Professional steampunk sheriff... cop stripper outfit
Sivir - Rich mercenary with a keen eye for business... that forget to wear armor on anything except the bikini area
But there are some that may qualify
Lissandra - You don't see much of her but she's pretty much been taken over by the corrupting influence of the watchers and is a cult leader.
Diana - Functional armor without high-heels and disfigured by whatever she made a pact with to survive
Anivia - Bird, endlessly reborn as an elemental demigod protecting the frozen wastes that allied for the greater good with queen boobwindow
Lulu - Yordle (aka gnome) witch in a funny hat that falls halfway between Squirrel Girl and Deadpool
Poppy - A tiny little ball of murder
Riven - Tomboy in broken armor... playboy bunny
Vayne - Batman... with some Valentine's day stripper getup
Caitlyn - Professional steampunk sheriff... cop stripper outfit
Sivir - Rich mercenary with a keen eye for business... that forget to wear armor on anything except the bikini area
But there are some that may qualify
Lissandra - You don't see much of her but she's pretty much been taken over by the corrupting influence of the watchers and is a cult leader.
Diana - Functional armor without high-heels and disfigured by whatever she made a pact with to survive
Anivia - Bird, endlessly reborn as an elemental demigod protecting the frozen wastes that allied for the greater good with queen boobwindow
Lulu - Yordle (aka gnome) witch in a funny hat that falls halfway between Squirrel Girl and Deadpool
Poppy - A tiny little ball of murder
Well, the industry can go fuck itself for many reasons but this isn't one of them.
Partly.
While it is quite off putting that most ladies have smooth skin while the males have scars from their battles.
As for the looks in general, i do like healthy looking ladies. We have quite a bit of action going on in our games and when the characters have to jump around avoiding bullets or magic they will have to be as healthy and well trained as they can get.
So the ladies that i play should be healthy. They should be thin enough to be agile and in my opinion they should have smaller breasts attached to them. You can't be a future space military operative when you get punched in the face by your own breasts all the time.
The lack of scaring gets on my nerves. Hat off to bioware for having ugly glowing scars on femshep in me2, at least for a while.
Gimme some big jagged badass scars on a lady already.
Or don't. Most of the stuff the industry is putting out isn't worth my money anyway.
Partly.
While it is quite off putting that most ladies have smooth skin while the males have scars from their battles.
As for the looks in general, i do like healthy looking ladies. We have quite a bit of action going on in our games and when the characters have to jump around avoiding bullets or magic they will have to be as healthy and well trained as they can get.
So the ladies that i play should be healthy. They should be thin enough to be agile and in my opinion they should have smaller breasts attached to them. You can't be a future space military operative when you get punched in the face by your own breasts all the time.
The lack of scaring gets on my nerves. Hat off to bioware for having ugly glowing scars on femshep in me2, at least for a while.
Gimme some big jagged badass scars on a lady already.
Or don't. Most of the stuff the industry is putting out isn't worth my money anyway.
It is commonly-accepted "conventional wisdom" that games with female protagonists don't sell, or at least they don't sell as well as they would with male protagonists. It is also commonly-accepted "conventional wisdom" that action films with female protagonists don't sell. This was often justified by citing films such as "Elektra", "Catwoman", or "The Brave One", all ignoring the fact that these films were all terrible. Then "Hunger Games" came out, a genre action film starring a female protagonist that is not overtly sexualized, and it broke box office records.uanime5 said:
Similarly, I'm sure people arguing that female protagonists don't sell would bring up "Beyond Good and Evil", despite the fact that Ubisoft (who hadn't yet become particularly prominent) was focusing most of its marketing efforts on their "Prince of Persia" title, which had both name recognition and a unique and compelling gameplay mechanic.
They may also bring up "Remember Me", which got mixed-to-negative reviews, and "Mirror's Edge", which generally got negative reviews and was very experimental with the first-person platforming. Meanwhile, the new "Tomb Raider" had the best sales in the franchise since the 90's perhaps because, I dunno, it was a good game? It might not have gotten reviews as high as say "Uncharted", but for a series that had been critically panned for years to pull off a turnaround like it did is not particularly common.
The fact of the matter is, because of this "conventional wisdom", there are very few recent cases that actually support it. No one makes female protagonists because female protagonists don't sell, and on the rare occasion that one surfaces and the game doesn't sell well, it is attributed to the fact that there is a female protagonist. It's confirmation bias, pure and simple. Plenty of games with male protagonists fail, but because there are also games with male protagonists that succeed, no one assumes that's the reason games with male protagonists fail. However, because there are so few games with female protagonists and so few of those games are any good, it is difficult to accurately gauge what kind of impact female characters have on video game sales.
Your statement that women are less inclined to be brave or heroic than men would make me laugh if I weren't afraid you were being serious. I'm just going to err on the side of "you were talking out of your ass" and not dignify it with a response.
Trying to make an argument for something is not the same as forcing anybody to adopt a particular creative vision. More often than not, it's less a question of whether or not someone "wants" to make a character a man or if they are simply making them a man because that's considered the "default". By making the argument for more female characters, it helps creators ask the question of why they make a character male and whether or not they've even considered making the character female. I'd argue that a lot of them haven't, either because it just never occurred to them (people are inclined to make characters by drawing from characters they are already familiar with, which are predominantly male) or because they buy into the "conventional wisdom" that "male is default" and making a character a woman is tantamount to "taking a risk" or "making a statement".
More to the point, if a developer WANTS to have a female protagonist but executives are shooting them down due to the "conventional wisdom", being able to cite a large number of people demanding that kind of representation in games is probably a very helpful thing to have. If people who want better representation don't ask for it, people who want to include it in their games will never be able to convince the marketing department that there's an audience for it.
I'm not about restricting the creativity of people who want to make male characters. I'm just asking that they think about it for half a second if they haven't already, and also making it known that if someone wants to make that sort of a character, there's an audience for that.
Uh don't make this so easy.uanime5 said:
First of all you did not say ugly (and this is actually just about non-attractive women) but diverse.
And as to my source, well let's just go with quite a few of Jim's videos, Extra credits and Anita Sarkeesian (Plus all the people supporting them in the comment section).
Should indicate that quite a few people would like more diversity.
Now how about your sources? I've showed you mine
The Boss may not have the prettiest face in MGS3, but it's still a somewhat attractive face. She also has a fairly nice body and of course gets her tits out at one point in the game. Standard attractive stereotype right there. And of course she isn't the playable character.Daystar Clarion said:
I like to think that The Boss and Ammy fall into this category.
Have you seen The Boss? She's built like a fucking horse, and Ammy is...
Well she's Ammy!
I would assume Ammy was purposely excluded due to the point about having a unique personality and motivation, both of which Ammy does not have. Ammy has no personality and no motivation other than "have to save the world because... just because". She's about as developed as Mario, that is to say, very little if at all.
Frankly I think you need to consider all of the criteria Jim presented in the video and not just the first one.Chessrook44 said:
Once again someone has missed the point about attractive. First of all, it's not about what you personally find attractive, it's about whether or not she was designed to be "generically" attractive. Chell is a young girl with a nice curvy body, thus she counts under the attractive stereotype and is disqualified. Then she's disqualified again for having no personality.Andy Shandy said:
I mean come on people, watch the video. Watch it, watch it, and watch it again if you have to. Pay attention to the rules, all of the rules, presented before you throw out random characters. Sheesh!